Sidewinder report

[PittmanRacing]

Puzzled - probably from my own ignorance

This question may likely be due to my ignorance as I am new (returning after MANY years) to Stock Outboard. While I know there are many really smart engine builders out there, it puzzles me why experts like Mike Weinandt and Sam LaBanco were not significantly involved in the Sidewinder project up front. Maybe they were more than I know, although I know both very well and never heard them discuss it. Sam was the person who did all engineering design updates on the Hot Rods and certainly knows them as well as anyone from a design perspective. Few know more about designing two-cycle motors from scratch than Mike.

While there are many excellent engine builders, it seems getting the best engine designers involved is wise as whatever they would charge for the work in the short-run would certainly pay-off over the long haul. All politics aside, these gentlemen have a long record of expertise and contributions to our sport. No offense to those (who I don't know) who have already worked so hard on the Sidewinder. The fact is, few know more about engine design than they do....why not use them?

[csh2z]

Paul,
There was a lot of input and guidance from outboard motor design engineers including Sam, Mike and many more names you would recognize.

[Boatracer4fun]

I'm getting major flack from R12 SO members. We are one of the successful regions breeding a fleet of A drivers lately. Some for, and some against the SW in the A classes. Without the motors being mass produced or even with a dealer network, how long will it take the potential NEW racer to purchase A single SW and have it arrive at there door? How many are sitting on a shelf right now? I'm sure that increased sales will result in increased production, but these are just a few of the questions the R12 members want answered.

Jeff Conant
SORC R12

2 Years ago when everybody was saying the same thing, I called Sidewinder myself and asked that same question. Pretty much the answer was turnaround time was 1 week at the time for a motor to go out the door.

I personally think that guys are using the " how long will it take" as there excuse not to buy the motor. Yes it is $5k or close too.

Any sport, or hobby that includes the world "Race" is NOT cheap. I undertand that SO is meant to be low cost. Guys have there choice. Run the OMC or buy a sidewinder. Guess the real question is how do you want to run your race program, and were to do you want to run in the pack.

Flame suit on

(I do not work for Sidewinder. I just have been following this thread. I also dont run A class.)

[26V]

Lol

Good grief! All I did was report my casual observations of Sidewinders in action at Wilson and I check back in and find 6 freaking pages! Like I tossed a signal flare into a bucket of fuel . . .

George, I would be interested in your Maytag engine. My GE washer croaked after a mere 5 years in action and my socks and undies are getting ripe . . .

Bill the Sidewinders are always a HOT topic. If you like being entertained just mention them, seat back, and watch the smoke roll out of everyones ears! But your post has brought out some good info on them. So I for one say thanks for starting the tread.

[fourty-eight N]

They way I look at it, the OMCs cannot run in the APBA forever. Eventually they will become totally retired in the racing world just as the motors from the past have. At some point new motors will come in and overpower the old worn out motors. This has happened in the past and it is going to happen again. You can only re-ring a motor so many times, eventually they just get completely tired out and just simply do not perform like they used too. All of the so called "strong" OMCs out there are fading away; they don't last forever. I would say it is time for the OMCs to retire, especially after watching how well the Sidewinder motors have preformed this year in the A class. The Sidewinder is the next step in the A category, just like the OMCs were when they were first introduced. OMCs are not even in production anymore, why? because their from the 1980's.. we're going into the 2013 racing season.. it's time for new generation equipment to take over. We cant race in the past forever.

PS: I own and race an OMC, I do not own a Sidewinder.

[MGallagher]

They way I look at it, the OMCs cannot run in the APBA forever. Eventually they will become totally retired in the racing world just as the motors from the past have. At some point new motors will come in and overpower the old worn out motors. This has happened in the past and it is going to happen again. You can only re-ring a motor so many times, eventually they just get completely tired out and just simply do not perform like they used too. All of the so called "strong" OMCs out there are fading away; they don't last forever. I would say it is time for the OMCs to retire, especially after watching how well the Sidewinder motors have preformed this year in the A class. The Sidewinder is the next step in the A category, just like the OMCs were when they were first introduced. OMCs are not even in production anymore, why? because their from the 1980's.. we're going into the 2013 racing season.. it's time for new generation equipment to take over. We cant race in the past forever.

PS: I own and race an OMC, I do not own a Sidewinder.

That was probably one of the most important posts on this whole thread. You know why, because it came from an 18 year oldl aka: the future of our sport. Well said Max.

[mercguy]

question...........

has the new Sidewinder been dyno'd and compared to the OMC? It happened in the D class with a new engine before the motor was even allowed. From what I have observed, the Sidewinder (ones that run consistantly) needs to be slowed down, be it an extra 1/2" or so height restriction..........

[PittmanRacing]

Yes it has by Mike Weinandt. As I understand it generated 23 hp. I personally don't know what the OMC does. Also, ultimately I don't care strongly either way on the SW However, remember that the opposite of parity is disparity.

Paul

[krazy karl]

They way I look at it, the OMCs cannot run in the APBA forever. Eventually they will become totally retired in the racing world just as the motors from the past have. At some point new motors will come in and overpower the old worn out motors. This has happened in the past and it is going to happen again. You can only re-ring a motor so many times, eventually they just get completely tired out and just simply do not perform like they used too. All of the so called "strong" OMCs out there are fading away; they don't last forever. I would say it is time for the OMCs to retire, especially after watching how well the Sidewinder motors have preformed this year in the A class. The Sidewinder is the next step in the A category, just like the OMCs were when they were first introduced. OMCs are not even in production anymore, why? because their from the 1980's.. we're going into the 2013 racing season.. it's time for new generation equipment to take over. We cant race in the past forever.

PS: I own and race an OMC, I do not own a Sidewinder.

I totally agree with you especially when you the OMC's can't tun forever. And they shouldn't, new motors should always be in the pipeline or racing will go away. I just don't want the OMC's or any other older motor dumped overnight. A smooth transition should take place as newer technology moves in. This allows time for new equipment to become more available including used stuff for those on a limited budget to be able to continue and not be forced out of the sport.

Also when this new technology moves in, lets not dumb it down so the older motors can keep up. Instead give the older stuff a little more advantage so they can keep up for a while until the new stuff totally outclasses it and then it will gradually go away and not be forced out overnight arbitrary rules. This would help bring in new motors and not attempt to keep old motors running forever, otherwise we all might still be running KE4's.

As I said in an earlier post I just started racing ASR with a OMC and having fun. I can't afford a Sidewinder now but would love to have one but don't force me into one but I would probably upgrade when they are more readily available and I can't keep up anymore.. However I would fit better in 25SSR but there are none in Region 11. I am too heavy for A and too light for C, but I race both.
I hope this all makes some sense, you may not agree but this is what I think.

kk

[Team B&H]

Any "new" guys running well with a Sidewinder?

-Bill

[B1PRORACER]

Here we go again....

This sounds very familiar. History does seem to repeat itself! Same thing happened when they eventually outlawed the KG4 engines (1984) in the A class. The A classes (ASR/ ASH) at that time were two of the most popular classes in APBA. I remember 3 elimination heats in ASR at Lockhaven, and that was not long before they were outlawed. We lost a lot of boat racers when that happened... can we afford to loose that many again?

[Boatracer4fun]

Any "new" guys running well with a Sidewinder?

-Bill

Dont quote me but I believe that only "experienced" racers are running the SW.

I think one of the big gripes for a newbie or stock outboard class, is the price is overwhelming.

If I ran this class, I would buy a SW.

[rumleyfips]

Peter has my vote. I quit when the stock outboard commission became more interested in introducing new engines than in boat racers. A was by far the biggest class the Dayton nationals had more A's than total boats at Grass Lake. New engines didn't attract many new members.

I heard about the Hot Rod 20H debacle when I started in 1965. At that time Swanson reps tried to sell me a Hot Rod 15 for AU in Canada. Luckily I declined as the engine went away. At the end of the 70's Hot Rod salesmen were after me to buy the same engine as new. It was as old as the KG4. No sale but it discouraged me. Now the same engine , freshened up is introduced as new. It's as old as a KG4!.


Someone said that KG4s would still be running if they weren't outlawed and implied that would be a terrible thing. Right, there would be more members and KG4's would outnumber todays OMC's and still be winning.

A few people will buy Sidewinders but I think the big winner will be Yamato salesmen.

[krazy karl]

If someone wants to run a KG4 they should be permitted to do so. It wouldn't be very practical but should be allowed. Let's quit banning old motors just because they are old. If they meet class requirements ie: 15 ci, let 'em go. Someone with an old motor might give it a try and decide "hey this is a helluva lot of fun and these guy and gal racers are the best to be around and I want to do this some more but I need a better motor". The next Sidewinder/Yamato customer? Who knows. Let's quit throwing up roadblocks.
kk

[14-H]

Ed,

****1**** More recently it has been determined, with the assistance of Mike Weinant, that the manifold for the carburator is too large causing a loss of velocity from the carb to the reeds. *** That issue is now being resolved.

***2***As far as the heat issue with Brians' motor, there may be a problem with that specific motor. That is the first I've heard of that kind of issue. I have not experienced that with my motor. I'm sure it will be looked at.

****3****Ed, don't for a minute think that your input over the years has been ignored. ***.

John: 1) Weinant's "discovery" is really just a guess on his part. BTW: from a HotRod owner who also knows how to make one run fast, this problem is DIRECTLY related to the crancase/crank set up problem in Brian's motor.

2) The problem with Brian's engine is NOT limited to Brian's engine. Apparently you missed Dean Sutherland's post about the Wellings' engines. Furthermore, unless this engine has a bad centermain in it (which I seriously doubt for such a new engine), the problem is related to the design set-up which would, therefore, exist in ALL engines with this set up.

3) Your pandering to me is really not necessary. I'm not really interested in having my attempts to help glorified. I am interested in fixing the problem with these engines and it appears to me that those in charge are just floundering. My point was that many who could actually assist with this project have been ignored in favor of others who have little to no knowledge of how to make a Hot Rod run (the Sidewinder is really just a re-designed Hot Rod -even the thread-started recognized this).