Sidewinder report

[csh12M]

Maybe

No worries Don, I don't let this stuff bug me "that way" anymore.

Yes-I do think 3-5 years down the road we could get the J category to adopt a Sidewinder. The gearcase is produced by the company already and I don't think we have any guarantee we will get Mercs in the future.

The Sidewinder would be the best answer. An American made two stroke racing engine.

The question is, will Sidewinders be ready? I am still skeptical. I agree with everything Ed posted. These are not easy to run motors. Mine was a pooch with a capital P. Wellings have two, and have tried running them for three years with poor results. Their flywheels also were hot. They have sent them back to Ed every year. Every year it is the same performance or worse. I don't care what anyone says. The motor is not ready for "rookie new names" yet.

I would be interested to hear what Ron Selewach thinks? I am sick of hearing everyone else opinion on the issue? Does Ron think the motor is done and is good as is, or are they continuing to work on it? Would Ron see the business value of restricting a 20C.I. or is he 100% committed to making the 15C.I. B work? How does he feel the product is perceived? What is his commitment to the future?

I don't want to grill him or be an ass, but we are at a bit of a crossroads here. We need to hear from the owners mouth his intentions for the future.

Just my opinion.

[Hutch06]

This is a highjack buuutttt....

What is the action that people are proposing to attract new folks?

Seems we have a group of really good operations guys and customer service guys. Now we need some rock star marketing guys. It is time for us all to recognize we are not good at marketing this to new people and find someone that can do it for us.

The answer is RACER/DRIVING SCHOOLS (folks in boats, J project, J racers, Never-Ever Racer, etc) and promotion.

This has been the 5th year MHRA has been doing Racer Schools. Let me give a brief history of how things have built to where they are now in regards to participation and numbers.

Years 1-2 : One Racer School a year, with participants being from people involved with MHRA knowing a person here, a person there who would be interested in getting into a boat and getting a ride... possibly wanting to race. Little to no promotion of the school.

Year 3: Two Racer Schools a year, with participants being from people MHRA members knew would look good in a boat, and some "outside, new name" folks who contacted MHRA through www.michiganhydroplane.com
Promotion consisted of our website, mentions at MHRA races, and word of mouth, MHRA Program.

Year 4: Two Racer Schools a year, with participants being from the same avenue as in Year 3, but much more "new name" people who contacted MHRA and was followed up by those coordinating the Racer Schools. These new names became coming from Indiana and Ohio as clubs in those states did not have a Racer School and found out about us.
Promotion came from our website, Facebook, Twitter, Hydroracer, some APBA exposure, Press Releases, MHRA Program.

Year 5: Three Racer Schools this year, with participants being from all over the place; people from within (MHRA members friends'), and outside. Each of our schools were filled to capacity in which we felt a Racer School could be properly given taking into consideration giving the participant an ample amount of boat time and instruction. This was the first year that I had to turn people away from our Racer School and tell them that they would be first on the list next year - and this was AFTER adding a 3rd school! Promotion came from a few tradeshows, an appearance at the Inboard Nationals, promotion on the APBA website and larger APBA events, our website, Facebook, Press Releases, MHRA Program, Racer School Postcards, Propeller, Hydroracer, and word of mouth to name a few. These were just about all people interested in racing as well, not just getting a boat ride.

We need to be pro-active in recruiting people into this sport, no matter how the person finds out about us. A very significant amount of follow up has to be done as well. It is time-consuming, but it works! I would be very interested to see what the numbers would be if each SO/MOD club started doing some form of Racer Schools at the same time that we did - that may sound arrogant of me, but take it as you may - this is a program that works, as long as you take the time to do it correctly. It's not just showing up with a CSH on Saturday morning to put two people on the water (but anything helps!)... it does take time to do it correctly, but once the format is down, things get easier, and people start coming to you, as it has for us.

Although this is a pretty significant hi-jack of a thread, it does relate to this issue. Of how much time is put into the Schools, it's a shame that we are in a situation where we can't really promote this new motor that is American Made.

-Elek Hutchinson

[Apachemax]

What about the greentops?

Ive only been around the sport for a year but id like to ask, What happened to the green tops? In a time when motors are hard to come by, why dont we try and find a place for them, that may make it easier for a new guy to start.
just my thoughts..

[G Stillwill]

Ed Im working on a Maytag for next year for ASH it should be pretty close plus you can do a load of cloths between heats.

[RFR_Aero]

George,
I assume that will be a "two cycle" Maytag.
Sorry, just couldn't help it.
Kurt

[G Stillwill]

Kurt to be honest it is a three cycle has a heavy duty spin cycle to get out of the turns with just sayin

[Affholter66]

Kurt to be honest it is a three cycle has a heavy duty spin cycle to get out of the turns with just sayin

Now THATS Funny!!

[Bill Huson]

Good grief! All I did was report my casual observations of Sidewinders in action at Wilson and I check back in and find 6 freaking pages! Like I tossed a signal flare into a bucket of fuel . . .

George, I would be interested in your Maytag engine. My GE washer croaked after a mere 5 years in action and my socks and undies are getting ripe . . .

[G Stillwill]

Bill just bring them to the races and will do them up between heats oh and if they get done to fast I got plates made up to slow it down

[reed28n]

Ed Hearn's Side winder project

Ed Im working on a Maytag for next year for ASH it should be pretty close plus you can do a load of cloths between heats.

George, maybe you could help Ed Heran get a side winder going

Sidewinder has not been a great honeymoon, but they have hung in there to produce some really encouraging results. I am confident that they will buid on their successes.

I find it odd that we bash their lack of performance and in the next sentence we want to slow them down. Tricky waters to navigate.

[reed28n]

The answer is RACER/DRIVING SCHOOLS (folks in boats, J project, J racers, Never-Ever Racer, etc) and promotion.

This has been the 5th year MHRA has been doing Racer Schools. Let me give a brief history of how things have built to where they are now in regards to participation and numbers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although this is a pretty significant hi-jack of a thread, it does relate to this issue. Of how much time is put into the Schools, it's a shame that we are in a situation where we can't really promote this new motor that is American Made.

-Elek Hutchinson

The racer school has been a great success! and is truly one of the best things going on in APBA right now. Region 6 should be proud of it, it is not arogant to challenge all of us to Hydroracer.net less and recruit racers more.

[krazy karl]

Ok. My 2 cents. In region 11 I ran and would still like to run CSR. However everyone has gone to CMR and CSR is non-existent. So I have been racing basically a stock Yamato in CMR except for a modified foot. No pipes or four bladed props and have been running in everyone's slop for a couple of years now even though I have done engine work, props and stuff and have gained about 5 mph in the last couple of years. So has everyone else, so I am still in the slop. I race on a limited budget, so I don't want to go the mod route. Furthermore I don't want to mess with my motor because I want to do Top O' again and reliability is a major issue with that venue. Yes I know I can put pipes on and take them off but my better finishes have come from attrition.

I don't weigh a whole lot and Tony Lombardo convinced me to jump into the ASR class this year. I am a little bit heavy for this class but not too bad so I jumped in. I bought a good used Zorkin and one of Dan Swartz's OMC's that they didn't need anymore and a couple of good props. I am running up in the front and am finally having a blast. Now some of you want to dump the OMCs and push them over into mod and limit stock A to Sidewinders. This will drive me directly on to the beach. Same story, different class but for different reasons.

I don't see why a stock class has to be all one motor. Definitely less interesting for spectators and more expensive for drivers if they have to replace equipment. Isn't one of the points of running stock is to keep costs down. I don't disagree with new equipment coming into the sport but let's not throw out the older stuff with the bath water. If the Sidewinders really start punishing the OMC's then give the OMC's a weight advantage. So far I haven't seen really beating up on the OMCs, yes the Sidewinders have been faster at times and so have the OMCs but this has been in the hydro class as there are none in the runabout class. So far it seems to be driver expertise as opposed to motor domination and we are including the Swartz and Wilde motors which have been dialed in quite well.

I am not trying to be one of those trying to save the contents of my motorbox to the exclusion of everything else, just don't throw me out with the bathwater. If I wind up with an obsolete motor in the next couple of years I am not going to be happy camper and I do not have $5,000 to shell out for a Sidewinder. We need as many boats as we can get to keep this sport alive.
kk

[B1PRORACER]

Karl- you make a very important point. There are ALOT of people who are racing the OMC engines that don't have much money. These people don't seem to be considered when all of this is discussed.... In a couple of years they will wonder where everyone went.

[csh2z]

Ed,
I apologize for my optimism for the Sidewinders' success. I've always been a glass half full kind of guy. I too, have been running a Sidewinder 20 for three years and have experienced both the upside and downside of owning a new motor in this stage of development. There have been some huge set-backs and lessons learned during this time. I'm sure you're aware but for the benefit of others. Just this spring it was discovered that the castings for the blocks were flawed. A pourous area in the casting was causing water to seep into the bottom cylinder making it impossible to tune. That issue has been resolved. More recently it has been determined, with the assistance of Mike Weinant, that the manifold for the carburator is too large causing a loss of velocity from the carb to the reeds. That is also causing a tuning issue, the one you described in your post about having to back off. The bottom cylinder loads up when the RPM's drop, like during planing and turning and it takes time to clear out. These manifolds were designed with engineering assistance of Boyeson Reeds. Apparently there were some miscalculations. That issue is now being resolved. As far as the heat issue with Brians' motor, there may be a problem with that specific motor. That is the first I've heard of that kind of issue. I have not experienced that with my motor. I'm sure it will be looked at.
With all that, much time has been lost as well as confidence by the membership. It's a shame that all the research and development and therefore the pitfalls on this project had been exposed publicly at our races rather than behind the closed doors of some huge testing facility packed with engineers and unlimited resources. But, it is what it is. In the end, I believe this product, built specifically for Stock Outboard, will be of the highest quality in the market and will serve us well for many years to come.
Ed, don't for a minute think that your input over the years has been ignored. Your knowledge and experience is well respected by the "factory" and your concerns are all taken into consideration. You may not agree with all the choices and decisions that were made but a wide variety of opinions from many sources are always useful and considered.

[csh12M]

Very informative

Ed,
I apologize for my optimism for the Sidewinders' success. I've always been a glass half full kind of guy. I too, have been running a Sidewinder 20 for three years and have experienced both the upside and downside of owning a new motor in this stage of development. There have been some huge set-backs and lessons learned during this time. I'm sure you're aware but for the benefit of others. Just this spring it was discovered that the castings for the blocks were flawed. A pourous area in the casting was causing water to seep into the bottom cylinder making it impossible to tune. That issue has been resolved. More recently it has been determined, with the assistance of Mike Weinant, that the manifold for the carburator is too large causing a loss of velocity from the carb to the reeds. That is also causing a tuning issue, the one you described in your post about having to back off. The bottom cylinder loads up when the RPM's drop, like during planing and turning and it takes time to clear out. These manifolds were designed with engineering assistance of Boyeson Reeds. Apparently there were some miscalculations. That issue is now being resolved. As far as the heat issue with Brians' motor, there may be a problem with that specific motor. That is the first I've heard of that kind of issue. I have not experienced that with my motor. I'm sure it will be looked at.
With all that, much time has been lost as well as confidence by the membership. It's a shame that all the research and development and therefore the pitfalls on this project had been exposed publicly at our races rather than behind the closed doors of some huge testing facility packed with engineers and unlimited resources. But, it is what it is. In the end, I believe this product, built specifically for Stock Outboard, will be of the highest quality in the market and will serve us well for many years to come.
Ed, don't for a minute think that your input over the years has been ignored. Your knowledge and experience is well respected by the "factory" and your concerns are all taken into consideration. You may not agree with all the choices and decisions that were made but a wide variety of opinions from many sources are always useful and considered.

Great post John, I think I learned more from it than I have all year. Thank you for the info. You have been a great ambassador for the project. I really hope Ron will take the time to come to Dallas and share his thoughts with us.