Sidewinder report

[Big Don]

"I don't necessarialy agree with Big Don"...........not taking sides but i think it wierd that Donny sets the record but yet claims the Sidewinder is lots faster?? I think you are spending way to much time on the Left-Coast! Plus isn't the Donny Allen rig a put together outfit with a borrowed boat, motor and prop?? I think the McCay-Schwartz rig has been running now for a couple years and is dialed in. The Team Pater/Pavlick/Allen OMC sure ran strong for being a last minute deal! Let's all just try and be impartial!

Time to come home to Michigan my friend!

Just sayin

Sincerly
Gary Pond

Matt same question to you… What’s your point?

I take offence to the fact that you are implying that I’m lying.

How can you claim to not taking sides? Your inference certainly shows you are taking sides.

Come on you’re the second Captain America of Stock Outboard racing and know that the fastest does not always win. How many times have you seen that fastest not win?

Yes it was borrowed, so what?

I will put up with a lot of BS, but I will not stand by and be accused of not being honest about this race and what happened. That rig was owned by several people and thrown together and Donny was put in it without ever having tested it. Yes we borrowed well, but so what, it still does not change the fact that he was not the fastest.

[rumleyfips]

Deja Vu

About 35 years ago, Craig and Shannon tried to get me to go 15 Hot Rod Saturday night in the bar at Silver Lake New york. Yes I had gone through the Champion, Swanson , American Hot Rod scares but they went for it again anyway.

They told me that there was nothing for new ASR/ASH racers because good AKG4 blocks were so scarce. They said that it was now too difficult to run with Tommy Marcell and Ron France . I said I could run with them for under $1000 ( I was making $200/week at the time). Bear in mind that there was some beer involved.

I said ' I will buy the stuff for ASH and the next time you come here I will have beaten Ron and Tommy'. The next day I bought a little Bunky boat from Dick Ficket. I got an A engine from Jim Toohey for $400- 1/4-1/2 mph slower than my good KG4 but a good motor. A trip to visit old alky drivers in Ogdensburg NY turned up a few $50 A&B 1-1 props that ran well in ASH.

So ; I spent less than $1000 on a rig that could outrun Ron or Tommy. It would also get to the first turn with the Hot Rods but wouldn't run through the turns without a gear prop. See Sidewinder throught turn one at Grass Lake.

Now we have people saying its too hard to find a good OMC A so you should buy a Hot Rod Sidewinder. How times change.

I quit a couple of years later. I sold some KG4's, a 25SS, a friend's 30H that I ran for him , an OMC 15 block and case and a Hot Rod B powerhead. I thought that APBA was about to make all these engines obsolete so I left.

Getting rid of old racers like me may be a good idea but will new engines that obsolete more affordable equipment grow the sport?

John McManus

ps. I sold a Yamato 80 too.

[D_Allen_III]

Comparisons

The only facts I have are that:
- Heat 1, I started ahead of and inside of Aaron Salmon with a Sidewinder who passed me on the outside by the end of the lap 2. Aaron S. breaks the ASH record.
- Heat 2, the carburetor on Aaron Salmon's engine fell off and I started in lane 2 on the outside of JMK and had a clean run by myself and broke the Heat 1 record.
- Heat 3, Aaron S. jumped the gun with 3 others. Aaron S. won by approximately 10 seconds over Olivia Valentine with me coming in 3rd behind Olivia. Olivia increased her lead over me over the course of 3 laps with an OMC powered ASH.
- Heat 4, Aaron S. was in the starting chute 4 seconds earlier then me and in lane 9 on the course. I started in lane 3 and had a flying start, beating him to the first turn. Dealing with other boats on the course Aaron was approximately 5 seconds behind me and on the outside. I stated on the bouys in every corner, every lap and he closed the gap to about 3 boat lengths by the end of the race after running on the outside of my line.

When I look at everything I know about the weekend's racing, the ASH Aaron Salmon was driving was faster than the rig I was driving. How much faster, I don't know, but all I know was that it was faster.

Was the equipment I was running borrowed? Yes, but it was also VERY good equipment to be borrowing. I usually try to borrow good equipment, I learned that from you Captain.

[Matt Dagostino]

No offense......

Matt same question to you… What’s your point

I will put up with a lot of BS, but I will not stand by and be accused of not being honest about this race and what happened. That rig was owned by several people and thrown together and Donny was put in it without ever having tested it. Yes we borrowed well, but so what, it still does not change the fact that he was not the fastest.

Not saying anyone is lying.......i own no OMC or Sidewinder and have no plans to own either.
Just appears the OMC at this event was faster by virtue of setting a World Record with a borrowed rig that maybe with more testing could maybe go even faster???

We all see where these 'conversations are headed'..........should be a fun time in Fort Worth!

At our club race last weekend at Wilson, NC, Abby Pond with her best OMC beat The Stillwill Sidewinder every heat!! Abby nailed every start and George had to work through traffic to get up to second. It appeared he was not gaining on her. So one would conclude the OMC was faster. But had the Sidewinder got out front it may have pulled away?????

But that's why we call it racing!! Driving skill, set up skill and of course starts all factor into the equation! So what rig is 'faster' is a relative observation. I believe you when you say the Sidewinder had a mph on the OMC on the top end but it appears Donny had better overall time due to his experience. Sounds like a pretty even race.

All good my friend..........some times i don't agree with eveything i say either. I meant no harm!!

Ok..........back to X-Factor!

Matt
ps..........and yes, if you must borrow, borrow well! Congrats on the new record!

[pav225]

.

Couple of comments....

People who were not at a race, should not comment on what took place at the race or how fast boats were or were not going. If you weren't there you have no idea. Salmon was 1.5 to 2 faster than Allen. Ask around, maybe someone has a video you can watch before commenting.

Donny ran ASH on 325V. The boat has won Nationals in J, FAH, and qualified in BSH. It is an excellent boat in many different classes. Also, we borrowed a GREAT motor and prop.

Dave Bennett was beat by 2 mph at Grass Lake by 2 different Sidewinders. Dave has GREAT boats, motors, and props. He has been racing A for a very long time and has gotten probably every ounce of speed out of an OMC that can be found. He also tests more than the majority of the other A drivers.

Matt, you should know more than anyone else that borrowed equipment can be fast. You ran a borrowed rig and won Nationals!

Finally, my comments started off as constructive input to he parity committee...along with observations of what will happen if one motor runs away with the races. We have seen in Region 7 that more folks are already moving to race Formula instead of A Stock. Theses are just the facts as I see them.

Fire away with your comments. I just got back from a 48 hour drive from Yelm. I'm going to the garage to work on my equipment for next year....

Mike

[Hutch06]

Cost

To interrupt everyone's interpretation of this past weekends ASH race, I'd like to follow up on Dean's past posts.

$4800 is a pretty good chunk of change to be asking for a motor that can only run one class.
Five years ago when I entered into the sport, I bought a very competitive ASH rig for under $2500 (boat, motor, prop) - I admit that it was a hell of a deal, without a doubt. But as a broke college kid (who was more interested in racing than studying), the price was a huge factor to my involvement in the sport. The way that things look with the current Sidewinder (at the speeds they are currently at), if I were entering the sport now with the intent of racing for 5-10 years I would have to spend:

$4800 A Sidewinder
$1000 A Hull
$350 - 1 propeller

That equals out to over $6K, without a way to haul the rig, and only running one class. That is almost triple the amount that I paid to get into the ASH class, which ultimately, hooked me into racing. If this motor was available to the AX or J class, this could be a bit more understandable - but standing by itself? I couldn't promote this motor to a new racer, at all the way it stands now in the system it is being run in... and really can't promote the class now either.

[Matt Dagostino]

Sorry for commenting.......

Couple of comments....

People who were not at a race, should not comment on what took place at the race or how fast boats were or were not going. If you weren't there you have no idea.
Mike

Don't be so cranky guys..........all good banter. Wasn't at race but the fact is a OMC now holds the ASH World Record. Congrats......

When is Pater going to get on here and blast me to make it a clean sweep??? 48 hours! Time go get some sleep. Congrats on the 20 ssh record too Mike!

Did not mean to say/imply anyone was embelishing facts..........seemed like the Sidewinder had top end but the OMC set the record.

All good info for the Parity Committee........god bless em!

[MGallagher]

To comment on the cost factor, these motors are BRAND new at that cost. Most used equipment in any Motorsport is about half the price of the new. As for depreciation of a sidewinder motor used, I guess that's up to the seller. However, if they all run the same out of the box, it will probably only drop to about $3200( that's what I would sell it for).

Understandably, to put the introduction of this motor into historical context will be hours of discussion at the national meeting. However, having used motors as our ONLY option for competition in APBA stock outboard is not something we should strive for. Having Racing Outboards as a viable company, and a member base that can fully support a USA manufactured 2 stroke racing motor is essential to the future of this sport. Yamato's are used, Mercury's are used, OMCs are used, Hot Rods are used, and ALL are currently NOT in production.

And just a little fact about the 302, if you did want to buy a brand new Yamato from the factory it would cost upwards of $6000 dollars.

Let me also state that the 302 is still a pretty viable motor given its current use around the world, however, given the thread and to put the Sidewinder into the context of our sport I have placed the 302 into the group of used motors no longer in current production.

[PittmanRacing]

Value proposition

I figured it out. Dean has been making these points all along. The Mercury is a good choice because you can run both J & AX with the same motor. The Sidewinder if it remains as is, will be the logical choice for A. That means one engine, one class. It is highly likely you will need for a bigger boat and new props as we learn more about it. Not a good value choice.

The real choice now after J & AX is 302. At least that will be on an appropriately sized boat for racing in the low 60mph. And the value? The 302SS is ready to race. Get a restrictor, another prop, and a spare shaped gearcase and you can run 3 classes with one boat and the 302SS plus another prop with a spare gearcase. All for about $3000 vs $4500 engine.

That is two engines, two boats, two props, one spare gearcase and you got 5 classes! Furthermore, you have J running in the mid 40mph, AX at mid 50's. Then in an appropriately sized boat you have the 302SS running in the low 60's, 20SS at mid 60's and CSH at upper 60's.

Thanks Dean!

Paul

[csh12M]

Paul - exactly

I figured it out. Dean has been making these points all along. The Mercury is a good choice because you can run both J & AX with the same motor. The Sidewinder if it remains as is, will be the logical choice for A. That means one engine, one class. It is highly likely you will need for a bigger boat and new props as we learn more about it. Not a good value choice.

The real choice now after J & AX is 302. At least that will be on an appropriately sized boat for racing in the low 60mph. And the value? The 302SS is ready to race. Get a restrictor, another prop, and a spare shaped gearcase and you can run 3 classes with one boat and the 302SS plus another prop with a spare gearcase. All for about $3000 vs $4500 engine.

That is two engines, two boats, two props, one spare gearcase and you got 5 classes! Furthermore, you have J running in the mid 40mph, AX at mid 50's. Then in an appropriately sized boat you have the 302SS running in the low 60's, 20SS at mid 60's and CSH at upper 60's.

Thanks Dean!

Paul

Paul - that is my point exactly. You did a better job in summary. I am trying to figure out "why would I race A or B"? I am sure some legacy racers still will, but it has no chance for growth. The value proposition just does not make sense. Maybe it will grow organically from existing racers. I guess time will tell. If Racing Outboards could restrict the 20C.I. to run B as well as 20H and 25R then I think we could sell the value. The A issues is harder, at least in the short term. J, AX, and A should all run the same motor, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

[MGallagher]

So what your saying is, the future of the sport is being primarily based on +\-60 used motors that are in stock and are currently not in production and if so, have to be imported. Yes, short term answers are great, and you may think that Yamato is a better option simply by the fact that your more comfortable with its future than that of Sidewinder. However, to not include the ONLY current racing motor in production, in the USA, in your plans for the future simply because you can get a used motor, that might not be as fast as the others, for about 70% of the price, is a major flaw.

[thepiranhabros]

J, AX, and A should all run the same motor, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

I almost don't want to say this because I know it is not a popular statement to make for various reasons (some very good, some not so good). Let me also state for the record I am not trying to start an argument with anybody. This is just my opinion and you can take it for what it is worth. So here goes.

The J/AX/A classes did and still do have one engine: the OMC.

Before you start writing, I already know the arguments. It is an old engine. It is out of production. It is hard to find parts. Finding a "good one" is difficult. And probably more that I'm not coming up with right now.

But think about this:

One engine serves three classes with the addition of two $15 restrictor plates ($30 total). That's it. Use the same engine and same boat in three classes. You could potentially have three different drivers running the same rig every weekend. And you could get an OMC with a gear case for about $1,800.

Or, if you're like me, you start your young 11-year old driver out with the OMC set up as a J. Run it for one year (we ran two so he could become very familiar with the boat at a slower speed and really learn how to drive). Bump it up to an AX setup, and run it for another year or so. If/when your driver is ready, bump it up to a full-blown A. Talk about return on investment, and literally growing a young driver with his/her rig and the sport.

From a sheer economic standpoint, this made (and still makes) the most sense to me. A driver could potentially start at 9 years old, and run the same exact rig forever (provided s/he does not outgrow the class).

Like I said, I know this isn't the popular opinion, and I'm sure many detractors will tell me so after this has been posted. But frankly, I really don't care. I've always been a bit askew, and have never been about doing what is popular. I do what I think makes the most sense. And for me, spending $3,600 for a J/AX engine that requires $2,000 more in machine work, then spending $4,500 for an A engine three years later just doesn't add up in my ledger.

Flame on.

[csh12M]

No

Actually Matt, I think the opposite would be best, but probably the least likely to happen. The A Sidewinder needs restriction packages to make it viable for J and AX. The 20C.I. needs the same to be viable for B. They should let the 15C.I. (current B) go altogether. If this could happen then we may really have something. Unfortunately, I think there are probably to many hurdles to make this happen. Maybe in the future, but the more Yamatos that are sold the harder it will be to grow A and B. I think the Sidewinders are at a critical point, as is our sport. The two are somewhat tied together. We need to make some strategic long term decisions and somehow stick to them. We also need Racing Outboards LLC to be more of a partner, not just a vendor.

[sponsonhead]

We also need Racing Outboards LLC to be more of a partner, not just a vendor.

And the problem is that the SORC has treated BOTH Racing Outboards AND Bass Machines like a vendor instead of a Partner. Until we stop $hitting on both of these guys, it will be status quo...right into the ground.

R-19

[csh12M]

Completely agree, but...

I almost don't want to say this because I know it is not a popular statement to make for various reasons (some very good, some not so good). Let me also state for the record I am not trying to start an argument with anybody. This is just my opinion and you can take it for what it is worth. So here goes.

The J/AX/A classes did and still do have one engine: the OMC.

Before you start writing, I already know the arguments. It is an old engine. It is out of production. It is hard to find parts. Finding a "good one" is difficult. And probably more that I'm not coming up with right now.

But think about this:

One engine serves three classes with the addition of two $15 restrictor plates ($30 total). That's it. Use the same engine and same boat in three classes. You could potentially have three different drivers running the same rig every weekend. And you could get an OMC with a gear case for about $1,800.

Or, if you're like me, you start your young 11-year old driver out with the OMC set up as a J. Run it for one year (we ran two so he could become very familiar with the boat at a slower speed and really learn how to drive). Bump it up to an AX setup, and run it for another year or so. If/when your driver is ready, bump it up to a full-blown A. Talk about return on investment, and literally growing a young driver with his/her rig and the sport.

From a sheer economic standpoint, this made (and still makes) the most sense to me. A driver could potentially start at 9 years old, and run the same exact rig forever (provided s/he does not outgrow the class).

Like I said, I know this isn't the popular opinion, and I'm sure many detractors will tell me so after this has been posted. But frankly, I really don't care. I've always been a bit askew, and have never been about doing what is popular. I do what I think makes the most sense. And for me, spending $3,600 for a J/AX engine that requires $2,000 more in machine work, then spending $4,500 for an A engine three years later just doesn't add up in my ledger.

Flame on.

I completely agree (except for paying the additional $2K for blueprinting a Merc. that is way exaggerated.) but...... it would make sense and be better if that J Motor was a new Merc or new Sidewinder and your kid or kids grew with it. Your post highlights exactly what some of our new Racer School families are looking at. I have two kids one who should run J and one that should run A. If they want to compete I will have $7,500 tied up in motors alone. So I will buy a Merc. run J and AX and then go to a Yamato class.

If it was the same motor you could cut cost by 1/2!!! This is simple stuff, we just need to have the courage and conviction to change.