302 Super Stock Hydro

[mercguy]

hmmmm....

I understand the "intent" of this class, just wish something else would have be decided, as like everyone else has stated, we already have too many classes. The issue I see with this class is it is going to be a LONG time before there are enough of these "spec motors" bought, before the class can be ran on its own. Heck, Ric isn't selling the 302's very fast now, as it is, as there are almost $500 cheaper than the "spec motor" will be. Where does the racer that invests in this class run his boat "until" the class can survive on its own?

as to the "profiled" foot cost...........302 stock foot.....$400, shaft $90, profile job $200...............so, safe bet is $700 total.........

speaking of Reg10 racing ONLY, I just don't see adding another class is going to be possible, as most of the time we have a hard enough time racing all the classes in one day and a few classes get only ran 1 heat at times, adding another class makes the problem worse and will lose racers from other classes that get "bumped".......

maybe the "Novice C" class should be more refined and let that class "roll".............

[HydroKyle93R]

Ignition Timing

Will the ignition timing be "set" in place or will engine owners be allowed to change the timing?

[blueskyracer]

I understand the "intent" of this class, just wish something else would have be decided, as like everyone else has stated, we already have too many classes. The issue I see with this class is it is going to be a LONG time before there are enough of these "spec motors" bought, before the class can be ran on its own. Heck, Ric isn't selling the 302's very fast now, as it is, as there are almost $500 cheaper than the "spec motor" will be. Where does the racer that invests in this class run his boat "until" the class can survive on its own?

as to the "profiled" foot cost...........302 stock foot.....$400, shaft $90, profile job $200...............so, safe bet is $700 total.........

speaking of Reg10 racing ONLY, I just don't see adding another class is going to be possible, as most of the time we have a hard enough time racing all the classes in one day and a few classes get only ran 1 heat at times, adding another class makes the problem worse and will lose racers from other classes that get "bumped".......

maybe the "Novice C" class should be more refined and let that class "roll".............

I have to agree that there are to many classes and not enough time in the day for what is allowed now..

[pav225]

Keep Pushing

Lots of reasons why we can't do something...

Dave, thanks for continueing to push this!!

Mike

[daveracerdsh]

302ssh

Thanx for the support Mike. APBA stock racing is dying. It's a fact. right now...there are less people running stock outboard then could fill the 767 I am taking to Chicago to attend nationals. We can continue along the present path of losing 10 racers a year to other sports..or we can look outside the box and start from scratch and build the sport back up on a firm footing. I look at all of the negative comments on this class and go..ok...good points all around. But what are YOU doing to help the sport grow. Come up with some other ideas to help stock outboarding grow and I will be happy to listen. If we keep on going like we are right now we will be done in 5 years. There will still be stock racing...but it will be fragmented in little groups with no national sanctioning body to support it. This class is going to happen starting November 1 of this year. I have placed the first order for the motor with Ric Montoya. It will be on a race ready legal boat at Grass Lake, and will be tested at nationals for all to see, with a prop supplied by Vic Brinkman. I can't wait to get this thing going...and I have no financial stake in this thing other then the time involved. Like has been stated before...every other form of organized motor sports racing has something similar to what APBA is now doing. We are late to the dance....but it is not to late to get things going. I sorta told myself when i started this thread that I would not respond to the negative comments...because I know the people stating them for the most part mean no harm, and sometimes they bring up good points. But the class is now part of the sport we all love...and we need to support it. Forget about the fact that the motor is slightly more expensive then it would be if you ordered it box stock from Ric,,,and PLEASE look at the big picture. Dave

[reed28n]

Retention

We do not seem to have much data on why we lose racers?

Cost?

Long days?

Low water time?

Return on investment or minutes running vs minutes watching?

Life changing events?

I have to say if you are not a racer you probably have seen enough at a boat race after 3 to 4 classes run. All the motors look the same, from the shore they all look to be the same speed and we just do not cater to spectators.

I see the 302 class as a challenge to build and if it builds you will combine this class with others at local events to get these folks rides. And where will they run? at the back of the CSH field. They can spend the same money and be a mid packer.

We do not need anymore 3 boat classes. We need to encourage racers to race popular classes.

All that said, I respect and appreciate you effort to make something happen and hope I am wrong.

[Dave M]

Off Topic

Thanx for the support Mike. APBA stock racing is dying. It's a fact. right now...there are less people running stock outboard then could fill the 767 I am taking to Chicago to attend nationals. We can continue along the present path of losing 10 racers a year to other sports..or we can look outside the box and start from scratch and build the sport back up on a firm footing. I look at all of the negative comments on this class and go..ok...good points all around. But what are YOU doing to help the sport grow. Come up with some other ideas to help stock outboarding grow and I will be happy to listen. If we keep on going like we are right now we will be done in 5 years. There will still be stock racing...but it will be fragmented in little groups with no national sanctioning body to support it. This class is going to happen starting November 1 of this year. I have placed the first order for the motor with Ric Montoya. It will be on a race ready legal boat at Grass Lake, and will be tested at nationals for all to see, with a prop supplied by Vic Brinkman. I can't wait to get this thing going...and I have no financial stake in this thing other then the time involved. Like has been stated before...every other form of organized motor sports racing has something similar to what APBA is now doing. We are late to the dance....but it is not to late to get things going. I sorta told myself when i started this thread that I would not respond to the negative comments...because I know the people stating them for the most part mean no harm, and sometimes they bring up good points. But the class is now part of the sport we all love...and we need to support it. Forget about the fact that the motor is slightly more expensive then it would be if you ordered it box stock from Ric,,,and PLEASE look at the big picture. Dave

Dave,

While I think you are on the right path, I think your timing is off. Stock outboard is far from dead. It is thriving in fact. Lots of DSH's and DSR's. Some did not wait for it to get to this point to do something. However, the powers to be did not see it that way. Tragic. Problem is, I still don't think the root casue has been determined. But to much time and money is being spent on figuring out why, and then taking baby steps to see if it works. If a business ran like that, it would be out in less than a year. Sorry to get off topic, but I just wanted to point this out. That might be why you are seeing some resistence to the class. Personally I think APBA should purchase a dozen Hemp Hydros, and a dozen engines, and make it novice. All set up the same way, slow and easy to plane. Kids and adults can run the class.

Good luck on your project, I wish you well. You have a great passion for it.

[reed28n]

good idea

Dave,

While I think you are on the right path, I think your timing is off. Stock outboard is far from dead. It is thriving in fact. Lots of DSH's and DSR's. Some did not wait for it to get to this point to do something. However, the powers to be did not see it that way. Tragic. Problem is, I still don't think the root casue has been determined. But to much time and money is being spent on figuring out why, and then taking baby steps to see if it works. If a business ran like that, it would be out in less than a year. Sorry to get off topic, but I just wanted to point this out. That might be why you are seeing some resistence to the class. Personally I think APBA should purchase a dozen Hemp Hydros, and a dozen engines, and make it novice. All set up the same way, slow and easy to plane. Kids and adults can run the class.

Good luck on your project, I wish you well. You have a great passion for it.

That would be the way to get novice class traction...

[DtwSailor]

Novice

So, Figured I would share my 2 cents, since I was branded the "new-name" racer 2 years ago.
#1, I chose to go to 20SSH because of the cost of the equipment. I had a MHRA club member, sell me a battle proven boat, motor, single prop, all for under 3K, which eased the financial impact in a recession. The cost was a major factor.
#2 In 20SSH, ask anyone who races against me, I offer to pay entrance fees if they commit to jumping the gun before the race! Little do they know, I was/am serious! As I am gaining more seat time, I am in the back of the pack, as I just don't feel comfortable yet in turn 1 after the start. Halfway thru my second year, I still am not comfortable.
#3 My wife, who is a convert to boat racing, keeps asking if I am getting frustrated, knowing that when I go to race, I will not be able to keep up with some of the other racers who after 10, 20, 30 years, know how to tweak just this or that, or what wheel is better for what course. My response is never, as I am personally enjoying the ride! (and hoping for the gun jumpers)
#4 I am considering purchasing a 302 for this class this year. I had funds set aside for a J motor for my son, but he will be racing only twice this year, and that is still a TBD. (Not pushing him as I don't want him to have a negative feeling, or that Dad wants me to do this, so I better do it, he has to WANT to)
#4 A couple of other novice racers (new to the sport in the last 3 years) and I always have a side bet for dinner, breakfast, or a cup of coffee, to allow us to run our own race in a race. This also helps with #2.
#5 What I would be a tad concerned about is getting a novice racer, such as myself in a full pack of 12 boats. I have seen what happens when one person makes a mistake up front. I have also seen senior racers come off the course, as a novice is still racing a lap back.
Based on these realistic scenarios, I am all for the 302 class, but wonder if we can make it as a novice class, say with maximum of 3 years running for an entry, and then move them to another class either 20, C, or whatever?
this way, the investment can be reworked into an existing class with different lower unit, and after 3 years, you know you are going to have someone hooked!
just a thought for a rainy day...

[Dave M]

Great Input

That is pretty good input right there DTW. It sounds like a true Novice class would have taken care of your needs up front.

The cost of the Novice class would be a lot less than the 3K you spent, if APBA owned them and let people run them for a year or two, or three. Or have a rental program.

In my experiences, new racers have more fun with new racers, not with experienced drivers. I think Novice should have been used in place of J and AXS back in the day when all this was changing. I know the J & AXS program worked, but imagine what could have been. New racers racing new racers equals less dissapointment and more enjoyment. It also gives the adults a chance to join in with CSH or 20SSH to try and compete with the top guns, when they are ready, not when an organization says they are ready.

[DtwSailor]

That is pretty good input right there DTW. It sounds like a true Novice class would have taken care of your needs up front.

I won't say taken care of my needs, but rather have a more viable option for an entry level adult. I love racing 20SSH, and will be racing until I am too old, or too broke. Which ever one happens last!

I don't see APBA getting the equipment though...too many insurance risks, liabilities, and then other out crying from other divisions. Can you imagine the joy if unlimiteds had a novice boat for rental in many hearts across the country provided by APBA, or even SST?

Or what our dues would increase to if they did that?

MHRA and others are on the right path with the racer school and rigs to use for novice racers. I think the equipment has to be provided by the racer and supporting club or benefactor. I love the idea of a novice class. And this is coming from someone who will not qualify for a novice racer in another year under my idea!

I just hope that this new class can help build this sport. I don't agree with many that this sport is dying. I believe that with the hard work of clubs, individuals, and some creative thinking, it will continue to thrive. In Constantine, we had 10 out of 100 entries based on Racer School Graduates. 10% entries that would not have happened without it.

I look at that as a 10% growth in a time when times are tough.


-226M

[csh12M]

I am excited to see how this goes

I am all for less classes, but I think this is worth a try. Fundamentally, I think the sport has to get easier to compete in. We can run it combined with the 20SSH or CSH and I don't think it will cause any problem.

After reviewing the rules (quickly) my only point of concern would be the low prop shaft height. 2" seems extreme. CSH is a very stable ride at 3/4. I have two boats that I currently lend to racers. I would lend them for this class, but I am not gonna hack off the transom (one is the back up boat).

I also worry that, the lower the prop shaft height the more advantage it is to bring the prop closer to the back of the boat. you "trick" the prop into turning more RPM. I believe I could build a boat that would be very "trick" or specialized for the class. You may want to consider a minimum distance from the gearcase to the back of the boat, 3-4".

Just a thought. If it is already in the rules and I missed it, sorry.

Thanks,
Dean
12M

[daveracerdsh]

Good point

Good point Dean....I will put that in my notebook..will discuss it at Grass Lake. Of course there will be a learning curve with all of this....We are doing are best to make as few rules as possible as well as making it fair for everybody. I suppose I am somewhat suprised at the amount of animosity towards if from some people....but such is life. I do have a lot of passion for this new venture...I just see the stock catagory slowing fading into nothing...there may be little blips here and there where we gain some new people, but the overall trend is down....undeniable facts. I know in the past myself and others have well stated what the reasoning behind this new class is...I don't feel I need to re-state it here. I will say again that we need to look outside the box sometimes to make things work. Keep the ideas coming....I am writing everything down for discussion. Dave

[DougMc]

I am all for less classes, but I think this is worth a try. Fundamentally, I think the sport has to get easier to compete in. We can run it combined with the 20SSH or CSH and I don't think it will cause any problem.

After reviewing the rules (quickly) my only point of concern would be the low prop shaft height. 2" seems extreme. CSH is a very stable ride at 3/4. I have two boats that I currently lend to racers. I would lend them for this class, but I am not gonna hack off the transom (one is the back up boat).

I also worry that, the lower the prop shaft height the more advantage it is to bring the prop closer to the back of the boat. you "trick" the prop into turning more RPM. I believe I could build a boat that would be very "trick" or specialized for the class. You may want to consider a minimum distance from the gearcase to the back of the boat, 3-4".

Just a thought. If it is already in the rules and I missed it, sorry.

Thanks,
Dean
12M

Perhaps in the future if the class were successful, a specific one design hull rule would be more fair than just running any boat. I found a 2 mph difference between my old CSH boat and the new/06 boat Cronk built for me. I found more speed in a new boat than different 102s or even props.

[reed28n]

good points

I am all for less classes, but I think this is worth a try. Fundamentally, I think the sport has to get easier to compete in. We can run it combined with the 20SSH or CSH and I don't think it will cause any problem.

After reviewing the rules (quickly) my only point of concern would be the low prop shaft height. 2" seems extreme. CSH is a very stable ride at 3/4. I have two boats that I currently lend to racers. I would lend them for this class, but I am not gonna hack off the transom (one is the back up boat).

I also worry that, the lower the prop shaft height the more advantage it is to bring the prop closer to the back of the boat. you "trick" the prop into turning more RPM. I believe I could build a boat that would be very "trick" or specialized for the class. You may want to consider a minimum distance from the gearcase to the back of the boat, 3-4".

Just a thought. If it is already in the rules and I missed it, sorry.

Thanks,
Dean
12M

Don't profile the gear case or change the prop shaft (that will limit porpeller options)......let the racer decide if they want to stick with it long enough. You can always get a cheap bushing for your prop. Trying to be constructive but I still do not agree in principle.