Bass-Tohatsu D-Engine Performance

[dholt]

Ed's right...there was much opposition to the introduction of the OMC...my dad included.

Of course it will meet opposition...because change means FEAR!!!!

You ever expect any group of drivers in a class to OK a new motor? As Pat pointed out, those decisions are made by the Commission because you can't let the inmates run the asylum.

Yes, some old Merc guys quit after 1986 when the OMC came in. But what was best in the long term? It was the OMC 'A'.

Same for the Merc 25XS.
Same for the Merc 44XS.

Those were better options long term than the old Merc 25 and the 55H.

According to the data in the very first post in this thread....the speeds for the Tohatsu are around 76 mph. The good 44XS's are running 82-83! What the hell is there to be afraid of short term? Let the motor in and regulate parity from there.

Christ...should we still be running the 60J in JSH and JSR too?


Dana

[crankbearing]

Nissan in Canada

Hey Neil,

Yes I was well aware of that, I have been around this industry for more than 20 years as well Mercury owns a percentage of Tohatsu etc... Either way you need to then have Tohatsu america update their records for that was the first place I went to look for parts in Canada they listed me 12 dealers who have no parts, nor have they ever stocked any parts for either motors, carb, injected or otherwise.

I am interested in getting the details on importing the powerheads directly and the costs associated.

Regards,

Dave Scott

[vislaguy]

wannabee d stock

well I have read all these post and would like to ad a few things.I race d mod abig class here in the south and would love to race d stock because i could race a second class with the same boat . theres only 2options for me and that is to chose merc or bass and drop way more money then I have . me ,my son and girlfriend all race and I flip the bill for it all,5 classes right now and I want one more for me. its great what bass and dave scott are doing but I would like to know wether this new motor becomes leagel or not wiil most racers be able to drop that much on just one motor.I dont think they can not most of the racers I know, not when you can build a d mod mototr from the ground up for 2000$ or so, why do you think d mod is a much bigger class.If you want to improve the d stock class you are going to have to change the rules in that class not just add more motors.I will race d stock if you allow any tower that is closed up and any gear box with a ratios of 1 to1 ,1up or 1 down and allow after market pistons. that is also keeping all the cowling for stock appernces ,if they did that you could build a d stock motor for 2000$ or there abouts.now why not!!! there still stock powerheads are yamato feet any faster ? No! there alot cheaper though! does a tower make a boat go faster? No! I Know bass and dave what to sell there ready to race motors and I'm sure they will sell some ,some guys dont build there own stuff and what to buy ready to go. I hope they sell a lot but us low buck garage junkies need to race too. this class does not have to be so complicated just add the tohatsu and open the rules some on both motors and you will grow this class. thanks mike

[jeff55v]

I haven't heard anyone say they will buy a motor if approved.

Ryan, I am ready to make a major investment into my racing future. If the Tohatsu motor is approved, I will buy one. If it is not, I will continue racing my D mod.

[nbass]

Nissan Parts In Canada

Dave Scott, Nissan/Tohatsu parts are available through your local dealer. Each dealer may or may not stock a variety of parts. Your local dealer can order parts for expedient delivery. I do not think a week to get (for instance) piston and rings is unreasonable. If any boat racer is having difficulty getting parts, I will intervene on their behalf. We have planned to use the local dealers for parts distribution, but if that is unworkable for Canada, we will seek to setup a mail order system for parts.
Neil Bass

[crankbearing]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

No More of this!!! I am spent..... I will continue to race D as long as the Mercury is legal, as I know my counterparts will in this area. I can see none of them buying another 6000 dollar motor for the same class in Canada I have already stated that.

I will build and sell my 44's as long as I can, they make really good mod candidates as well. If you thouroughly read all these post YOU WILL FULLY UNDERSTAND WHY THIS SPORT DOES NOT HAVE ANY MANUFACTURERS SUPPORT.



Regards,

[ANZANI-QUINCY FREAK]

Manufacturers Support Issues Keep Evolving All The Time

From what I have read on all these posts is that racers want to race, no more and no less. When manufacturers have something to prove performance or techology or durability wise they do look ot the racing community to see if there is something there "these days" not the 1950s that gives name recognition that fattens the bottom line profitability. That was present too in the 1950s when Merc literally bombed the marketplace with innovative technologies that sure was revolutionary from a cosumer engine company that choose outboard racing as its show me testing ground to prove and score a whole lot of points!

Remember there was not the same sports contents then as there are now and boatracing was not the fastest to change as were other emerging racing technologies that grew faster and along with that a growing fan following. We are not a "concept car" yearly show everyone the new models of anything either. What we are is several fractious sanctioning bodies with memberships and club bases that are not very good at governing the sport themselves and by the very companies that exploited us when they wanted product and name recognition and then left us. We are not dynamic and we are not practical either. We are not organizations on the move for beginning racers to highly experienced ones. We are not dynamic in recognizing that everyone racing or who wants to race are not all the same economies of scale to start racing or compete. We let manufacturers bully the sanctioning bodies and they virtually made the rules too as a result instead of the other way around. Lastly there is a lot of backstabbing going on all the time that makes us all look like extreme sport bozzos, that sickens people and they just won't go to a race anyhere far outa state as a result.

Sounds like there is a lot of cleanup work to do that will take years and it will but the first big step where it all starts with most beginners is Stock Outboard. Sanctioning bodies making racing structured, affordable and most of all governed by its memberships who give the operations side guidance, an operations side that keeps free of special interests. The sooner we go generic adaptive tower housings, adaptive gearcases and remove engine manufacturers from influence and only the provision of stock block and cowled engines from the tower up will we finally see what are the best and the others that keep trying. That would sure stir manufacturers interests because there are no exclusions and only cubic inches and stock block and tower combos that are stock block classes. Right now its Stock Outboard by exclusions and motors that are not really stock but "blue printed racers" manufactured for racing anyway. I for one would not be too bothered if the stock classes like D had any manufacured motor from any year choosen, within say over 35 cubes with 40-median 44 cube high side with its cowls mounted on the universal water level exhaust tower and adaptive gearcase. People could drive the class at their cost and their future changes to improve. It is a place where a Merc 450 or 500 could tangle with a Merc 44X or a Tohatsu/Nissan D or some Yamaha or Suzuki equivelent regardless of the age and cost of the engine but here is the hitch - NO BLUE PRINTING and using stock unaltered powerhead parts entirely with their cowls, the the only contols being adaptive throttle, steering and ignition kill.

Did any of you remember when this was unders discussion since the 1970s because people saw factory support coming to an end and had the forsight to discuss it but nothjing ever came of it. See the fix we are in now? and people look like they are waking up to that fact more and more, so why are we not giving the sanctioning bodies that policy direction. If this does not happen, stock outboard which has really become specialty engine and blue print outboad will cease to exist with everyone shifting to economical Modified Outboard or to Alky were the costs are higher but also vary.

Time to start the universal adaptive tower housing and gearcase revolution and I hope the Bass brothers Tohatsu D is that first halting step to give more potential and other racers more open to all kinds of options at all the different scales of economy each racer "chooses" to face per class. I think there is rebirth there where the way things are going in stock outbard now has become hardly stock Outboard at all but something of factory supplied and modified become engines that are really not consumer factory stock and I am referring from the tower up. Besides, Who do we race for, the engine manufacturers? or Our selves for our and public enjoyment? If its for the manufacturers, stock outboard will die, not so the other way around.

My two cents. Anyone else?

[CSR4C]

D Stock Solution

1. The Bass / Tohatsu motor.
2. All “44s” with a 55H tower & gear case. 55H min. wt. Flywheel, standard mag. Full cowls.
3. The “44” as above on the Bass tower & gear case as used with the Tohatsu setup.


This gives 5 motor options (44XS, Bass Tohasu, 44/55H unit, 44/Bass unit, 55H) so the D Stock class can grow. The Bass brothers will be able to sell their products. The racer that likes to scrounge parts can race economically. The racer that wants to buy new equipment and race can to that also.

Darrell

[dg22]

I agree, there should be options.

I am new to racing. The last reply by Darrell makes the most sense to me. There should be options. If I had the money I would buy one of Dave Scott's 44XS. Most likely, I'll be piecing together my own 55H for D classic in Ontario.

[ANZANI-QUINCY FREAK]

Good To See The Comments Based On Economics For All Basis

This is not the first time that the previous suggestions have been aired, for many years, decades now of discussions. Still there seems to be that this brand and not that brand idea and part of that is old allegences that really have little place today. The suggestion based on universality and economics always comes back to the model that is also transferable to other classes of scale that D-Stock should be complete stock powerheads from 40 to 44 cubic inches with everything in between, mounted on a adaptive universal tower and adaptive universal gearcase/lower unit to support that class. No blue printing allowed with only modifications being those of adapting throttle control, steering and ignition control & kill. Your motor must use its original powerhead cowls from the base of the block up, modified to accept throttle, steering and ignition controls.

That way, a person of modest means or who can buy the latest out for 40 to 44 cube powerheads with cowls can toss an older 2 cylinder deflector OMC at a Merc 450, Merc 55H, Merc 500, Tohatsu, Yamaha, Mariner, or newer OMC etc., but they can not blue print the engine, apply only the factory specs and permissable adaptives with safeties and the sun, moon and stars of outboards can compete. It builds in a curve for new racers to progress to the stage of more experienced racers. I allows for people to become specialists for the engine(s) they choose. The only drawback is from the inspections point of view. More knowlegeable inspectors, more inspections specs and you still have that glorious right of giving the red hot team entrants their inspected and disassembled engine home in a Box having either passed of failed stock powrhead and stock cowling inspection. Whether the owner wishes to display the colorts or decaling for the manufacturer, or team colors and logos on the stock engine top cowling we should leave for the entrant to decide. We might see some factory interest if they come to know their engines are popular and winning so that could lead to some supports for the sport as a whole but cut that off at factory control of any weight with the sanctioing body. This is entering the era of sanctioning bodies being elected and working for their memberships instead of members electing their sanctioning bodies and then having sanctioning bodies do their own thing of running an old boys club and forgetting just who elected them and why!

My two cents, again. Anyone? Discussions like this are infectious.

[CSR4C]

Blue Printing

I was on the commission when the “blue printing” of machined surfaces was approved. The reason was that it was going on already. There were cheaters that were able to duplicate the factory-machined surface and the inspectors could not tell the difference.
In the perfect world motors would be made to a .001” tolerances. But in manufacturing there must be reasonable tolerances to allow for tool wear etc. So not all motors are created equal. “blue printing” can make the motors equal.
The reason bead blasting in not allowed is it can give cheaters a way to cover their crimes.
Some motors, due to how they are made almost no blue printing can be done. The Merc. 25XS is an example. I had TJ blue print my Yamato 302 the price was very reasonable. The OMC A can be very expensive because of all the work that can be done to it.

Hopefully the stock commission will like my “44” motor idea. That along with the J/A foot being produced again we just might see stock racing grow again.

Darrell

[Steve Johnson]

Alright, My thoughts

I've tryed to stay out of this conversation but you pulled me in.
I would be in favor of Darrells D combinations, In fact I suggested this to the powers that be several years ago .I was told that Allowing all the possible gearfeet combinations was against the purpose of stock. Speed advantage of the 55 merc foot ect. Shame cause I belive there is a strong bunch of these classic D racing on the east coast,would have been nice to have them join us. As for the Bass motor.... It is not unreasonable to ask to have some one on the other coast play with this thing a bit.. on a runabout too..
$5700.00 is a big investment. we should know exactly how this will run from a couple of sources. In theory this motor should dust the current 44xs.I'm not implying anything , but what performance could the Wienandt's of the world get out of it? there may be ten more MPH in there. I know what my little Yamaha FE will do. A little more info then make an educated decision about it. I'm in favor of the engine, but if this thing never can run with the current motor you will make the guy that spent $$$ for it very unhappy... Conversly I don't think that the 44 merc will like a restricter plate too well. The older 44 conversions should be a immediate match, In fact Aren't they already legal to run as they were( with Merc Feet)? I recall One racing a few years in the midwest. But now you put It to Dave Scott again.. He has the motors and the parts to run 44xs motors as is for many years. What do ya do? I can see handicaping the old 44'S But the BASS ? $5700.00 to be handicaped? Or not? More Data Please. A home should be found for it . But it may be a new class. As IS the D class Is not in trouble for Lack of engines. Order one today for $4500.00
Steve Johnson

[jeff55v]

Tohatsu 50

I think I heard before that a very similar version of this motor was raced in an OPC class some years ago. Is this true? If so, are there any OPC inspectors / racers who can vouch for the motor design?
I know this motor has not made it past all the red tape in the approval process. But it seems to me there is little real reason NOT to approve this motor.

[jeff55v]

The SORC has spoken.

The following is a quote from the APBA annual meeting minutes listed on this site.
" 1. Approval of Bass/Tohatsu Engine

MOTION TO APPROVE NEW BASS/TAHATSU MOTOR WITH AN ADVISERY COMMITTEE TO MONITER THE PROGRESS AND PAIRITY PASSED

MOTION TO HAVE NEIL BASS SEND JERRY WEINETTE A NEW BASS/TAHATSU MOTOR FOR DYNO TESTING SO THE SO COMMISION HAS DATA TO REVIEW. TESTING TO BE DONE WITHIN 6 MONTHS. SHIPPING COSTS TO BE INCURED BY SORC"

[Phil McDaniel]

which tohatsu do you have

I've read all the technical info. on the tohatsu here. I don't understand which powerhead is being considered. The new style is a fuel injection motor which will probably test out like was said(76mph). The old style(norminally asperated motor) has far superior capabilities over the 44 Merc. There are ways to entertain the stock rules and still have this motor run in the Super E class. Almost all external and some internal parts are the same as the Yamaha. I don't feel the older style(through 2002??)should be allowed to compete against the 44's. If the motor considered is the new style I don't think it will be effective in the "D" class.

However, I read a post which suggested a stock powerhead(old style) on a closed midsection(my choice) and any gearcase(my choice). I would highly consider building this motor buy stock rules. Phil