Bass-Tohatsu D-Engine Performance

[ANZANI-QUINCY FREAK]

Good Comment From That Previous Pro Perspective

I agree with the Pro Perspective writer 100% and to go further in the spirit of the Bass brothers open up more stock classes and to more manufacturers using aftermarket produced universal towers and adaptive gearcases to allow more "stock" powerheads and products with their stock named cowlings intact to enter into the size ranged stock outboard catagorys/classes. It would then be possible to see stock powerhead and cowled engines from Merc, Tohatsu, Yamaha, Suzuki embroiled in the same classes. Newer technology is good for the sport and "refreshing" to the classes.

If the majors again choose to participate with a factory engine for a specific class same as to a factory powerhead and cowl on an aftermarket powerhead and gearcase, we can always allow for them too, can't we? Heretic burning anyone? LOL!

[csh12M]

To Pat and Dana,

I agree about the Merc. comment and was not on the commision then. If I was it would of been another vote against its introduction. I do not mean offense to you guys on the left coast.....I love you guys! I just do not think it is to much to ask to send it East and let the other half take a look. I would like to see it pick it up and watch it run around the course a few times before I would allow it in. This motor is more expensive and someone else has invested time and dollars into reproducing Mercs. I support the Basses efforts and was one of the more vocal members on the commision last year who pushed to make the motor probationary. However, that said I do not think asking to have it at the Nats is to much to ask from a potential supplier of engines. I have been told (but am not positive that this is fact) the the motor has been dynoed and produces significantly more horsepower than the Merc. I just do not want to see a situation where we sell three Bass motors and tehy kick ass and we lose ten Merc. drivers forever. In the end we are left with the same thing 3-4 boat class at the Nats. only this time the motor will be silver not black.

Maybe I am wrong though, I have no vested interest in anyone. I just want whats best for the D class and racing in general.

Later,
12

[jsilvestri]

Is the current Merc "A" motor is the same engine that was tested at the 97' Hinton nationals. If so, its a shame that time was taken to even test it because it proved to be much slower than the current OMC "A" motor and even slower than the other OMC "A" engine that was being tested at the same event. What stuck me the as odd was the article that followed the nationals and the testing session because it was said that both motors performed well. Apparently, my eyes decieved me as I stood on the bank and watched Cooper Jess run his ASR against the two propationary motors and back off the throttle several times so as not to get to far ahead of the probationary motors. The Merc did not perform well and if the current motor is the same engine tested, it was approved.

I do not race the "D" class however I don't see how approving an engine that could help the class as a bad thing especially when The Bass Brothers are willing to make the engine available. We, APBA racers, have to quite being so worried about upsetting everyone. If this mantality was around when the OMC "A" engine was introduced, we would still be racing the KG-4's.

Also, if we want to introduce several brands of engines into a class, then I still like the universal tower and gearfoot idea with the powerhead of choice. My two cents.

[Dave M]

YEs Indeed

Is the current Merc "A" motor is the same engine that was tested at the 97' Hinton nationals. If so, its a shame that time was taken to even test it because it proved to be much slower than the current OMC "A" motor and even slower than the other OMC "A" engine that was being tested at the same event. What stuck me the as odd was the article that followed the nationals and the testing session because it was said that both motors performed well. Apparently, my eyes decieved me as I stood on the bank and watched Cooper Jess run his ASR against the two propationary motors and back off the throttle several times so as not to get to far ahead of the probationary motors. The Merc did not perform well and if the current motor is the same engine tested, it was approved.

I do not race the "D" class however I don't see how approving an engine that could help the class as a bad thing especially when The Bass Brothers are willing to make the engine available. We, APBA racers, have to quite being so worried about upsetting everyone. If this mantality was around when the OMC "A" engine was introduced, we would still be racing the KG-4's.

Also, if we want to introduce several brands of engines into a class, then I still like the universal tower and gearfoot idea with the powerhead of choice. My two cents.

I like several brands competing to race. Also, folks this is not a big time sport, people have invested personal savings, money out of pocket to develop engines for classes. Look at Dave Scott, he has invested a lot, Bass Brothers invested a lot and even had a running engine this year competing. Everyone says boat racers are a tight knit community, why would you need to see the engine on the other coast if you have friends to vouch for it ? The class needs help, Bass is offering help, if it makes the Merc go away so be it, Merc has not offered much in the line of race engines to anyone other than J's lately if I am remembering right ? Joe is right on, universal tower slap two or three powerheads on it and go race. I am a Mod guy looking in so my views might be altered somewhat due to the unforgiving sweet music that flows from megaphones. But, when I see people investing big in something that never pays out big cash in the end, I say support them. Give it a chance, you can always outlaw the engine later if it dominates, all it takes is one person to write a proposal and have it voted on.

My two cents, not that it is worth much more than water in Michigan.

[brian]

Bass vs merc

The big holdup on the merc stuff from canada is buyers!!! David had lots of interest but no cash sent. He has sold a new motor or two so where are the buyers?

The Big killer to the 44xs is gears and foot parts. Make the bass foot legel allow 4 holes to be drilled and and or an adapter plate to allow the new bas foot! I own a bass tower and foot for my FEH and can say it works. The water pump system is solid but would have to raise the 44xs by 1 in to make it work. David and Sid could both profit and we could have new 44xs engins in a hurry.

Allow Vertex or Wiseco pistons and I bet you could get the motors out the door for less than $4200 US!!! Kill the plastic pans and make it look like a yamato or Hotrod with just a spry shield and it gets sick cheap!!!

I like Sid and support his work by buying his products. A guy can build his own 44xs right now for less than 6K. Every part is availible except a couple of part you can machine yourself. I know not evey guy wants to build it but that is what David is doing.

David give us a price for a complete motor less the gearfoot. make them believers!!!


Brian

[sponsonhead]

SORC: Put Up Or Shut Up!

When the Bass Bros proposed the Tohatsu engine and the SORC approved it on a Probationary Basis, did they make as a part of the requirement of the probation that the engine HAD to be demo'd at the SO Nationals? Not being there, I don't know, but I am guessing the answer is no.

Let's make clear three basic concepts:

1) SO Needs more participation in D or a D size class

2) SO Needs manufacturers provide new motors. Guys like Ron Selawach, Ric Montoya and the Bass Bros are making in many cases CONSIDERABLE financial investments out of their own pockets to attempt to fill that need, more out of the love of the sport than as a profit center.

3) Once granted the go-ahead to develop this engine as a probationary D engine, the Bass Bros have done everything, and more that was required by them by the probationary engine rules that the SORC currently has in place. Arguably, the technical test data they have compiled and presented is probably more detailed than anything that Merc, OMC, Hot Rod or Yamato has ever provided when they have submitted an engine.

If everybody is going to get themselves a Big Woody over the fact that they have not personally seen the engine run at a Nationals or in their local backyard race, then perhaps the SORC should make it a rule that as part of the process for engine approval, a prototype has to appear at a Nationals. That might not be a bad idea, and at least Sid and Neil would know that was a hurdle that had to be cleared in order for their engine to be adopted beforehand.

Bottom line: These guys busted their humps and have put a quality product together for the taking, because they saw a need, and opportunity and they love our sport. For the SORC to throw another obstacle in their path with an argument against it being as provincial as "I didn't see it run yet in my region" is yet another example of why we keep tripping over our collective shlongs and are unable to grow this sport to its potential.

The time is now. We need this engine. And if you don't approve it now, the window will be closed, probably forever.

There. I'm done venting.

R-19

[dwestby]

Hard To Believe

The sport of outboard racing if you can call it a sport is sounding like a bunch of old ladies *****ing about their deceased husbands. The old days when mer would send a motor to test and be town down and let it be raced are gone. So what if a new motor beats some of the merc, if the cubic inches and they are stock production powerheads let them run. If there are not more new motors avaibly the stock classes will die. Yamoto have step up and expaning the classes that they can run why not let another supplier in the game. A new motor ready to run I might be wrong on this but the price was around $5700. not bad. If I was building this Tohatus package looking at the $$$ spent and the return It would be hard to send a motor out east to let someone run it for a season $$ for $$$ for me does not make good bussiness cents $$$. If this motor was to be approvied how many would be sold 500-200-100- or maybe 20????? Boat racer # in D stock are less than a stockcar entery level class at most local track and they race for $$$$. In closing let make it harder to expand D stock and other stock classes. And let mod classes for this year alone and f@## that category with muffiers , soft pickell , capusal and full body arrmor. then let start all over again with the pros. I am going outside and kick some rocks!!!!!! ""'"" MERRY CHRISTMAS'''''''

[14-H]

New D Motor

Let's make it legal and appoint a committee to keep balance between the motors. We need this breath of fresh air into the D Class before it finally expires. Eddie the Chairman.

[Art K]

Tohatsu

At the annual NBRA meeting the Tohatsu was approved by the Tech committee and went on ballot to the membership. I expect it will be approved.
All I can say there will be few opportunitys as good as this in the future. We need to support the Bass brothers as well as Ron Scott if the lower unit is a issue whats wrong with a Bass on a 44xs. You also have Ron Selwach out there trying to revive the Hot Rod. We better wake up Merc & OMC are not going to develope new race engines. These people are the future of boat racing.
Art K

[nbass]

Tohatsu testing

Bass Machines builds lower units, tower housings, and that sort of thing. We teamed with Tohatsu to bring a new product to a dying class. We are not getting rich on the Tohatsu and never will. We are offering it at the best price we can. If we were to send three engines out for general testing we would have to invest the $15,000 up front. Based on the current 40 or so racing D-stock engines, and assuming half of the racer bought a new engine in 2005 (extremely unlikely) we would not pay for the cost of those three engines much less the development costs we have invested in molds, tooling, and coordination with EPA and Tohatsu. Alternatively, we could charge about $8,000 per engine, but I do not think that would do well with the racers and I doubt anyone would pass such a high cost stock engine. As we sit right now we are looking at ways to keep your costs low. Marketing is very expensive and outboard racing is just not big enough to spread the costs. So, what do you want besides an old Merk?
Frustrated Neil Bass

[crankbearing]

Frustrated !!!!!

Hey Neil,

You talk about spending 15K on three motors to run around well I have a shed full of powerheads, 5 Mid-sections, lower unit castings, prop shafts, water pump cartridges being cast, recoil housings done. I have over 40K spent and sold one motor and three more this winter that is 4 motors in one year for a motor that is not abailable and has no parts.

Gears are coming I have lined up a company in India, to make the gears. 1:1 D gears only. I WILL HAVE COMPLETE D(44XS) GEARBOOTS BY THE SPRING. The tenative price on d gears will be $250 a set CANADIAN proposed I am waiting for the final quotes this week.

The technolgy is no different than what we are running now and you have to admit that, my suggestion was to have it fuel injected and computer controlled now that is a foward step in stock outboard racing.

But Dean, for sure I back you up fully if the Merc goes away so will I and about 10 racers in this area.

I can't say anymore, I feel that what we are both doing to try to build these is helping the class grow. The time, the effort, the money and the workload is unbelievable I am sure for both parties involved. Brian my motors are not 6K they are 4500USD give or take with a 44xs gearboot. What's the problem!!!

So as I said before all the guys that have purchased a 44 outfit in the last five years to race have paid big money and if the merc gets ousted by the tohatsu you are going to have some seriously upset drivers to contend with across the nation. For a package that basically is not worth anything but to the collectors, will they get there money back, maybe. Oh! well what the heck right it;s only time and money. We all have lots to throw away.

regards,

[MN1]

Neil,
This motor would be cool on a OPC tunnel boat. I've heard some OPC ers show some interest in your motor. Any thoughts on getting it approved for OPC.
Mark Nelson

[ANZANI-QUINCY FREAK]

I Think You Have Well Put Your Views Out As A Enterpeneur/investor Well

The Scotts and the Basses have sure done a good job of putting forth positions as a risk takers, enterpeneurs and investors in your project of the heart, being the Mercury/Mariner deflecrtor 44X stock racing engine engineered for the middle 1980s or the new Tohatsu probationary D. There are people out there saying your products are a good ones and great to race. What people are also saying/demostrating though is that risk taking enterpeneurial spirit is part of any investment game where there are others and no different. You and They to are in a free market and that is where its done, demonstrated and sold in concept and in sales. That is competition. It does no good to say if you do, I won't and so many others won't too. That is just a form of pressure tactics to protect one's investment and coupled to others its called a form of blackmail. I am sure we are all more mature than that?

I think the Merc/Mariner 44X has some staying power and it is now more of an unsupported concept to engine now being done independently and the Tohatsu probationary D motor is half factory with a new powerhead with cowls and half aftermarket/universal tower to gearcase. Both are stock racing engines and both are the fruit of different technologies after the same goal and that is to be number 1. There is nothing worng with that, so that is where there is competition, inovation, design, hulls, props and the driving skills. That is down to the very eccence of racing these stock racing powerheads and not a matter about whose investment needs to be protected as there is an equality of the free market there too. That being said, nothing prevents the product competitors doing the same thing in the freemarket of re-producing what is or producing a universal tower and gearcase to mount any comparable displacment range catagory of stock engines/powerheads with stock cowls and against each other.

I don't like hearing from grown and mature people that if you don't play by my rules, I will pack up my dolls and doll house, take them all home and never play with you again.

The rules are all of boat racing's collectively and that is what you have sanctioing bodies for , who are supposed to grow and be policy directed for and on the best wishes and policies developed for the good of the steakholders/membership as a whole, which are not the corporations or special interests of the few. That to some degree is what got boatracing in trouble to begin with. Boatracing is its membership that transcends the interests of Mercury, OMC, Hot Rod and Yamato etc.. The engine makers are the enablers if and only if the racers approve of them, not the other way around. So the sooner we get to universal tower housings and adaptive gearcases, the sooner boatracing is going to prosper with all kinds of innovative technologies instead of being involved in these petty self interested sqaubbles between special interests of new versus old and in who invested what, to produce their product.

Its a free market and let the racers give direction to their sanctioning bodies to approve engines suitable for classes inclusions be they new or used as long as they are stock blocked inside and cowled for name recognition, does the tower and gearcase really matter as there are still the props, hulls and drivers to finish off the equation too, who compete and that says it all.

[nbass]

Brian Scott's Investment

Brian, I feel your hurt. Sid buys gears 100 at a time, that is a risk he can take because he sells a number of new units and some re-builds each year. He runs casting at 10 to 20 at a time, makes the shafts 10 to 20 at a time, buys bearings by the box, it all adds up very quickly. Add a bad check, or a non-payment and it gets worse. Everyone wants work done very cheep or for free. Boat racers should price out some of the equipment costs for other motor sports.

Your case in point is why we limited our investment to one test engine. Brian, maybe both of us are in the wrong business!
Neil

[crankbearing]

how true!!!

Neil,

I do not want you to think that I am against your motor. I am not, I did ask if I could have the motor shipped to me to test at a couple races in the spring if you recall.

I do agree that most want everything cheap and at as least cost as possible. I think that there is room for both motors and if both motors are reproduced then it is the racers choice of which they want to purchase that is competition and if we had no competition in the marketplace we have a monopoly heck look at our respective governments.

Ideally we all would like to sell out are products in the first run. I have heard the horror stories from other who have attempted what we are doing and I still went in with both feet wet, knowing full well the road would have many bumps I do not do it for that, I do for the sport that I love.

Hey John Taylor, my point in regards to leaving the sport is most definitely not related to any form of blackmail, I just know that if the Merc is made obsolete by the tohatsu then the guys around here who have started racing in the last few years in "D" will not re-invest that kind of money in a new motor when they just finished investing 6-10K in a outfit with a Mercury. So my statement basically meant just as it read, there will be many who will leave if the MERC gets ousted, these are just the FACTS.

As I have stated in the past the other stumbling block for the Tohatsu is I cannot get the parts in Canada. This is a motor that is not delivered in Canada period. This means that all the 13 or 14 D racers in Canada would have to pay US dollars for parts and then import with a 10% duty plus 15% at the border for anything they bought in parts. This would only effect us in Canada.

Regards,