Bass-Tohatsu D-Engine Performance

[csh12M]

Lets put it on the ballot for the D drivers, after all it is their class. Let them deceide if they want a new motor in their class. My guess is they will not because they are afraid of the unkonwn. 80% of the D racers are East of the Mississippi..... and not one of them has seen this motor. To the Basses, I can appreciate your time and $ invested. However, you were already making the gearcases and towers, so outside of a powerhead tooling and some time I do not understand the huge marketing expense..... I am not asking you to make three more motors. I am asking that the one that has been manufactured be sent East for a race or two.

Patrick, we did not ask the Basses to build this motor for us. Last year they sent a blueprint to the meeting, thats it! A blueprint and a letter.....they did not come personally and expalin anything. We had to sit their and make guesses. Yet you make it sound like I want to nail them to the cross by asking to see the motor run. What a novel radical idea, actually let the majority of the drivers in the class see the motor perform. What is the big deal about doing one more season of testing...... If it is dollars then maybe the SORC can pay for the one produced motor..... I dont think the SORC is being hard to work with or making anyone jump through hoops. Going from a letter and sketch blueprint to a production motor in two year seems pretty reasonable to me.

It is easy for all of us non D racers to yell approve, approve, approve.......lets hear from some of the D racers. Wheeler, Palmquist, Sweeny, Haunstien what do you have to say......I know a few of you guys lurk here, voice your thoughts, I am not going to anymore.

Later,
12

[hagerl8m]

New Motors

I like the idea of new motors. it should help the sport grow again. ed said that there should be a commitee to keep things fair. thats a great idea. lets give the new "D" motor to make it competitive, what ever happened to slowing a motor down to make the new motor up to speed? The same thing should be done with the OMC vs. the Merc 15. And what i don't want to see is modifing the motor, just slow the OMC down, then fix the limit on the Ax classes so there is a stepping stone class. I found test data that before we pluged the billy hole on the omc it was going the same speed as the merc is now. weird how stock equipment is the same speed before we are allowed to screw it up. so before we start changing things lets look at all the options. oh yeah by the way i ran the merc against the OMC before we aproved it for alomost a year, and i ran it this past season too, and i'm a mid pack boat, all i need is 2 miles and hour. so don't down a motor just because your too lazy to try racing it.

chris hagerl 8m

[NUT2F]

As A Former Dsh Driver, From 1980(merc 55h) To 1995(merc 44x), I Think Both Motors(bass & 44x Repro) Are Going To Be Fighting An Uphill Battle To Bring Back Drivers To The Class. Yes I Believe That One Problem Is No Current Production Motor, But Imo The Biggest Problem Is How Do We Build The Sport? With New Drivers!!
But How Do We Get New People Involved Without Much, If Any Engine Manufactures Support? The D Class Is A Great Class, But It Is Not A Entry Level Class, Somehow We Must Build All Classes To Survive And Thrive.
Why Not Send The Bass Motor To The Winternationals March 11-13, So Us East Coasters Can See It Race?

Harry Pinner, Jr. 2f

[mike ross]

I'm with Dean on this one. We need to here from the drivers currently who race this class. They are the imput that the commision needs to here. We are counting down to Atlanta and if we want to make some changes we need to here from the Mercury guys. I think a new motor is a great thing for stock outboard. These folks that are committed to help keep this great sport rolling are few and far between and we need to support them. We know the future is going to be filled with trying to keep different motors competitive with one another. The feedback is crucial for the commision to make changes so that the playing field is as equal as we can get it. In other racing they just impound the rig, do the testing, and make the change. We don't do this so the input is our way of impounding the equipment so the changes are fair. Anyway thank you Bass Brothers for the oppertunity to promote this new motor. Mike Ross

[mercguy]

Neal/Sid

As A Former Dsh Driver, From 1980(merc 55h) To 1995(merc 44x), I Think Both Motors(bass & 44x Repro) Are Going To Be Fighting An Uphill Battle To Bring Back Drivers To The Class. Yes I Believe That One Problem Is No Current Production Motor, But Imo The Biggest Problem Is How Do We Build The Sport? With New Drivers!!
But How Do We Get New People Involved Without Much, If Any Engine Manufactures Support? The D Class Is A Great Class, But It Is Not A Entry Level Class, Somehow We Must Build All Classes To Survive And Thrive.
Why Not Send The Bass Motor To The Winternationals March 11-13, So Us East Coasters Can See It Race?

Harry Pinner, Jr. 2f

I suppose I could make arrangements to ALLOW the East Coasters to view your D motor at the Winter Nationals in March. I will be headed there with Gary Lewis. So, if you guys would and could, bring the motor to the Western Stock/Mod Divisionals In Bakerfield Mar 5/6th, we could load it into the trailer for the trip to Florida the following week. I would also be willing to run the motor on my Darneille CSH for demo purposes, etc. The motor would be well taken care of and safe. Just a thought.......

[nbass]

Reply for Dave Scott

Hey, this has been a good discussion on reality. Like I said before, those that own a 44xs are not likely to run out and buy an new Tohatsu. The 44xs will be around for a few more years regardless of the Tohatsu. But, the end of the 44xs as a viable D-stock is also in sight. The engine is no longer in production!

Dave, what I am saying is that if the Tohatsu is approved, over the next few years there will be good competition by both. And, like I have said before, enhancing the D classes would be good for the racers and could be good for both of us.
Hang in there,
Neil

[sponsonhead]

Voting on Motors

Let's see...was the OMC 15 put to the ballot when it came out to replace the KG4? Nope.

Or the Merc 15? Of course not.

The 44XS? Don't think so.....

How about the new 25's? Uh-uh.

The 102? No.

What about the B Hot Rod to replace the 20H? I can't remember.

The reason I make this point is to emphasize that drivers generally will NOT vote to have something new put in if they think it may potentially make their own equipment obsolete. And this CYA attitude is what is running SO into the ground.

This is why we have Technical Committees made up of Commissioners, who are elected by US. To do this sort of thing.

Ed Hearn said it best: Bring it in now, set up a committee to monitor and adjust as needed.

R-19

[dwestby]

Neil or Sid

I will chip in $200. if you want to send the motor with daren to the winter nats if this will help you guys out . thank for the part and help over the years just give me a call you know the number spud from a old D stock driver

[csh12M]

Bet you a six pack.....

Patrick what was the outcome of most of those motor changes......

Loss of racers! Retention needs to be priority one!

When the A engine replaced the Merc. several polls were done at the races for the A drivers. I specifically remember this as that is when I started racing in 1984. 85 to 90% of the drivers wanted the new motor..... I remmber one in particular was a grapefruit race where 47 out of 50 A drivers wanted the OMC. This was the most successful engine change I have ever seen in Stock. All the others you mentioned had the net effect of losing drivers. I have all the stats class by class if you want to review them going back to 84. I present them every year at the SORC meeting.

Tell me honestly what do you think the net effect will be if the Bass engine is legalized. Do we suddenly think 30 new drivers are going to start running DSH or DSR. I will bet you a case o beer Pat that if this is approved you will not have four of them at the same race in 2005 or 2006.

Do we even need a D stock class........D mod is a larger class.

Later,
12

[ANZANI-QUINCY FREAK]

Merc is a long ways awayfrom being ousted anyway

I don't think Merc is going to be ousted anyway as a class leader from any approval of new stock engines like the Tobatsu D and maybe others that might open up other stock block engines to the class.

It took many years to develop the Merc into what it is now as a stock racing engine be dang if the block is based on concepts turned to engines in the 1950s.

What I hate hearing is that people are being held up because the engine is no longer supported for racing by Merc and your subject to still finding and using their parts.

I would sooner see builders like Dave Scott be able to sit a Merc 44 of any year suitably approved on a universal housing and adaptive gearcase like the Bass brothers are producing or of who ever else makes them and not be held up to tower to gearcase standards that are no longer made and unavailable from the original equipment manufacturer where outright speculators have cornered the market on parts, some being re-produced and some not and not being aloowed to branch out once factory support s gone.

That would be the same to arm a Tohatsu engine as is being done, Yamaha, Suzuki and others the same way.

There is no way Merc would just drop outa sight. In eastern Canada, you guys invented the Canadian D (some out west here cheated with them long before and were found out against Merc 55Hs in D-Class) outa Merc Mk400-450 & 500 engines both center plug and offset plugs later like the 44X. That would bring more Merc racers in with universal adaptive towers and gearcases as it would other engines and within that the competition that requires the boats, props and driving skills still.

Right now its a shame there are 3 and 4 boat classes being run instead of a dozen like used to be. People are right though, is that most racers are thrifty to downright cheap because they have been spoiled a bit by manufacturers who supported their products with dealer cost parts and now there is a big used engine parts surpluses around so the new conditions can accomodate the new and the old and the intermediate at varying costs being able to do so with universal towers and gearcases.

I doubt anyone having paid $7,000 dollars to put together a rig in D stock is going to bow out to an new approved engine like Tohatsu or someone with an older 40 horse deflector OMC or Merc 450 on a universal tower and gearcase. It leaves the door open to economics where those less monied can start racing against those that have progressed showing them, those newbies, how htey can progress to their level in their class someday.

I remember at 16 years of age, when I could not afford a Merc 55H or a new hydro for D-class for my entry into racing from a pitman so I was thankfull and humbled that I had friends here in racing that sold me their used engines starting with a KG-9 on an H tower and used hydros, first a used Ogier and I was not alone here at that, until I got 55Hs, other Merc Hs and new hydros.

People started racing reasonably this way and the go getters got a way progress. Right now the class is stagnant where at one time its was the featured stock class. When Crescent came out with their Super C stock, it was a short lived eyecatcher and once again Merc became a main racing eyecatcher and in D stock again though they were different classes.

[14-H]

History???

My recollection of the adoption of the OMC A is a little different; there were petitions opposed to it; a counter proposal to put the new 15 cu.in. merc on an adapter plate to use the old quickie lower unit. I recall that Carl Holt opined that the OMC would cause the demise of SO racing. I do not believe that there was a ground swell of support as suggested by 12-M.

Nevertheless, I do believe that new equipment is absolutely essential. I will support the Tohatsu/Bass D so long as we can make sure that the 44 Merc stays competitive (indeed, can still win) and the new engine does not wind up like the Merc 15 in the A class. I give you my personal guarantee that new engine will not be implemented unless both of these goals can be met. This can be done; just look at the J and AXS classes.

I, like the Bass Brothers, am frustrated that more testing was not done before the annual meeting. Nevetheless, we will move forward. 14-H.

[14-H]

A Decision is Needed

I am quite sure the fact that the Tahatsu/Bass D motor is probationary is stalling sales of this motor. I am also quite sure that the uncertainty as to what will happen to this class is stalling sales of 44XS's as well. A decision needs to be made this year in Atlanta to bring stability back to the D Stock Classes.

[sponsonhead]

You missed the point

Dean,

I hear your argument, but I think you missed my point. I'm not dwelling on the History so much as I am trying to say we need to move forward on this. As Ed states, motor dominance can (and at least initially probably should) be managed so the new engine is competitive, but not instantly dominating. But we need the engine now.

And, I guess you don't know me as well as I thought you did. While your wager offer would be tempting to most folks, there's something you must not know about me personally:

I don't bet.

R-19

[ryan_4z]

Do we even need a D stock class........

I think that this comment may be more on target than anything said in this thread yet. I, as much as anyone, would like to see the D class become strong again, but I'm not going to race it. And I truely wonder who will. I haven't heard anyone say they will buy a motor if approved. If people wanted to race D than Dave Scott probably would have sold more than 4 motors over the past year. Where is the interest in this class going to come from? Are any current D racers going to buy this new motor? As I've said before I think that CMH and BMH have somewhat taken the place of the D class. For about half the money and half the maintenance you can go run a class at about the same speed range. So I think the question we have to ask ourselves is: Can the D stock class really be fixed? And if it can, Is this the way to do it?


Before I finish I would just like to say, I am not against the introduction of this motor, and I dont think anyone else really is either. But there are other issues at hand here, and I dont think we should make any decision to hastily.

[nbass]

Tohatsu is Available in Canada

Mr. Scott, Tohatsu outboards are available in Canada under the brand name Nissan Outboards. That same brand is available in the USA. Nissan is made and sold by Tohatsu. Everything is identical except the cowling decals. To find a dealer nearest you look on the WEB or call Tohatsu America at (972) 323-6003. Tohatsu America is the distributor for both the USA and Canada. You probably can not buy a carbureted 50HP in Canada (not available in USA either, we import special under EPA approval like the Yamahato). But, all the parts are available through the localdealer. Take a look at the 40HP or 50HP injected models at your local dealer. That is what it looks like.

Lots of M50D2 engines were sold world wide. If a racer can find a nice used one, we can ship the racer a kit to assemble a D-stock.

Brian Scott, if you want to assemble the Tohatsu/Nissan D-stockfor Canada, maybe we can arrange for the powerheads to besent direct andwe will ship you the other assembled parts. Just a thought.

Neil Bass