SO Class Reduction Proposal

[Jack Stotts]

Combining all the categories seems appealing but when one category can not be managed well, why let these folks run the three plus categories? If Stock was a well run machine, that is responsive to the needs of the sport, possibly it should be considered, but evidence is lacking. Jack

[Big Don]

Let’s all agree that there will be no more talk of trying to combine categories in this thread.

That is an entirely different subject and I don’t see Mod or Pro jumping to combine. I’m not saying its right or wrong it’s just not going to happen anytime soon.

Let’s talk about stuff we can control.

Plus we need someplace different for all the Stock drivers to go when their engines are no longer legal in Stock that can’t afford to buy the new stuff.

And Matt I'm still not in favor of changing the 20 height.

[Gunjumper]

I like Joes' idea, new available engines run in stock, let the old stuff move to Mod. But... other than the races held up in Michigan, we all run stock and mod races combined, so even if we break up the engines into different classes/categories, there are still more heats than we are able to run in a 6-8 hour day and we still have 18-20 classes to offer - to a new onlooker I mean. I guess we would get away from "obsoleting" motors, which is a major concern, every engine/driver would have somewhere to race, but isn't that just spreading out the overall number of drivers into even more classes? I like the idea Joe, but don't forget the stocks run with mods every weekend and what did we really solve by just moving motors to other classes/categories and running them at some other time of the same day? I don't have the overall answer to all of this, just being a devils' advocate... Long story short, tell me what is legal for next year so I can start testing. Greg

[Matt Dagostino]

And Matt I'm still not in favor of changing the 20 height.

Big Don
I bet a few cold one's in Detroit will help change your mind!!

And Mod's are a relevant part of the discussion since outside of Michigan most clubs run with them. As Greg Lyon's said, arn't we just talking abouting shuffling motors/classes/drivers. Who knows!!

[sam]

Here's a solution ... change ALL minimum entries for points to 6 legal boats including legal step ups. Run all classes with fewer than 6 entries per class combined into groups of 6 to 12.

This may require a rule change to allow smaller motors to step up.

Everyone gets to run, all classes are encouraged to build numbers to get points. No motors are eliminated or obsoleted. People willing to step up and pay more entry fees to fill in the heats get more water time.

AND ... there are fewer heats in a day

I know one objection is that some boats are too small to run with others ... that is a choice, not a rule. If we want boat racing to continue, one of the things that may have to change is the current potato chip boat. There are plenty of old boats out there of every size ... weaker class guys might have to invest in a second "bad weather" boat. Back in the "glory days" a lot of racers had second boats for less than optimum water, this isn't a new idea ... its an old one.

[reed28n]

Whoops!!!

Reed,

what club put on the driving school?

Bill

PS - very well put Steve Roskowski

Retraction - and apologies to Pavlick....

Hats off to the Marine Racing Club for their driving school....

[Ron Hill]

Change The Point System

Here's a solution ... change ALL minimum entries for points to 6 legal boats including legal step ups. Run all classes with fewer than 6 entries per class combined into groups of 6 to 12.

This may require a rule change to allow smaller motors to step up.

Everyone gets to run, all classes are encouraged to build numbers to get points. No motors are eliminated or obsoleted. People willing to step up and pay more entry fees to fill in the heats get more water time.

AND ... there are fewer heats in a day

I know one objection is that some boats are too small to run with others ... that is a choice, not a rule. If we want boat racing to continue, one of the things that may have to change is the current potato chip boat. There are plenty of old boats out there of every size ... weaker class guys might have to invest in a second "bad weather" boat. Back in the "glory days" a lot of racers had second boats for less than optimum water, this isn't a new idea ... its an old one.

I agree with Sam that a rule might need changing, but putting 12 boats on the water per heat, is a very good idea. But, if there was a different point sytem, no to run a race by, but to figure out HIGH POINTS, one boat should be allowed to run. That one boat would not get more points than if two boats ran. The trouble as I see it with "HIGH POINTS" too many people want to get four boats out there so they can get their points.....Six boats will only mean that they'll have to get their brother and other cousin in a boat.

"High Points" should be the boat that beat the most boats. Screw the "AVERAGE" idea that I got passed in 1962. It was a go idea for me, I could win 15 races, go home and be National High Point and never leave California......

[BP125V]

Sorc

Big Don "Let’s all agree that there will be no more talk of trying to combine categories in this thread."

Jack Stotts "Combining all the categories seems appealing but when one category can not be managed well, why let these folks run the three plus categories? If Stock was a well run machine, that is responsive to the needs of the sport, possibly it should be considered, but evidence is lacking."


No Don, let's talk about it. And Jack, when there is talk about combining categories why does eveyone assume (based on the posts I see here) that the SORC would then be in charge of the new J/Stock/Mod category?

I say combine all three and let a committee, like the J committee, run the show. Get rid of the SORC all together. All three categories absolutely rely on each other come race weekend, then why during meeting/rule making time do we assume that we are completely different? Same people, same equipment, same race sites, same potential new names.

For you Mod folks out there, I in NO way would support imposing Stock Outboard type rules on the Mod classes, let the Mod classes be true Mod classes. I just think that in order to solve: 1)the 3 and 4 boat races that plague us all, 2) lack of membership in all three categories, 3) the lack of participation in all three categories we need to look at the big picture, and that big picture is J/Stock/Mod.

Bill

[Dave M]

Good Points

Some good discussions going on here.

Steve, I didn't miss your point, sorry if it came across that way. I agree with you, but I know how some people simply run with stuff and really want those poeple to know you don't steer newbies to old junk. Let it be an option, not the standard. I agree with you.

Jack Stotts.... nicely put. Thank you. I have no doubt if you took the helm, boat racing would be a well oiled functioning machine that is adding value.

I think all of you are running away from the real point. There are to many classes in Stock, and possibly to many in Mod. When I speak of eliminating a class, it is not eliminating the engines, the boat or the driver. Combine it for petes sake....

At the end of the day you need to have 12 boat fields in each heat. Min of 8. You will NEVER grow unless you make it appealing. And anything less than that is not as appealing. It is boat racing not boat riding. You stand a much better chance at making the parade look good with 12 than you do with 4 or 5.

This idea of parity will never exist in stock outboard. Never. There is always someone who figures out a little secret. Whether it be a prop, a new design hull, a new coating, etc, etc etc. It is not always the engine that makes a top gun, a top gun..... Look at the 2 Cyl classes. B&H pretty much dominates them. If it is not a true B&H it is some copy or version of it. That is a good example of what I am talking about. One up that hull and you might win with the same engine you have. It is not easy to do, but it is possible. Look how far we have come since the 1970's.

At any rate, no matter what you do, PLEASE figure out a way to make it 12 boats or even more if you want, in one heat. Make it exciting, make it racing. Without this, the appeal to any national media is not there. Sure your local newspaper and tv news might give you a spot but we need more exposure than a local gig. So build the numbers so we can fill the classes with boats.

[PopPop]

"High Points" should be the boat that beat the most boats.
I've been saying that for years. Just multiply, the normal ponts, by the number of boats. If you want, you can then devide by 10 if you want to keep the value sensibly small.

1st with 8 boats = 8 x 400 = 3200 or 320
1st with 4 boats = 4 x 400 = 1600 or 160

It ain't rocket science. A simple calculator of a computer program in the region of national headquarters could do it for you.

[Ron Hill]

Too Easy....

See this is too easy, you've got to know who is "RACING" so you can get the most points, then win High Points, then get in the Hall of Champions.

Your system might prove that some guy in Region 12 who raced against 15-20 boats ten times in a year would end up Stock High Point and it would be a tunnel....Or some guy in Region 10 who races about 22 times against 10-12 every races, would end up Stock High Point.

AND your system might cause people to loan boats to fill the field and do you know how rough the water gets when there are 12 boats out there?

POP POP, you need to look and Nancy Pelosi, and understand that the way to create jobs is to give out more food stamps and more unemployment checks. We need to lower High Points to three races, as reading the charts, sounds like most race three races a year....To create more racing we need to race less for high points. I think maybe we could send out High Point Stamps, then people wouldn't even have to race...

[sam]

Bingo!

[Haüenstein]

So. Confusing.

Does anybody else have no idea what's going on in this thread anymore?

[ricochet112]

Does anybody else have no idea what's going on in this thread anymore?

LOL, not when Ron is typing faster than his brain is thinking...

Reminds me of being on a river in a boat without a paddle.

[Ron Hill]

What's Going On???

NOTHING and that has been the problem for about 50 years. Turn the clock back to 1956 Cambridge, Maryland....(On www.boatracingfacts.com) and see the boats, see the speeds, see the classes.

The U.S. Government has given us ONE GOOD THING and that is ZIP CODES. I can NOT think of one good rule to come out of APBA that has brought anyone new to BOAT RACING.

Combine Classes??? Hell, yes, but not for points. Count each classes points per Pop Pop's System.

Pop Pop points concept is simple and easy, and very good, in my opinion> If one boat races, he wins and gets 400 points. The goal, as I see it would be to run heats with 12 boats on the water at one time. This will force people to either get enough boats in their class, so they can run by themselves, or make them choose the class they wish to get points.

As I see it now, you have four boats run "A" hydro, four boats run "C" Hydro and four boats run 20 Hydro. The spectators, if there are any, don't like six heats of four boats. If there aren't spectators, us patrol boat drivers don't like to sit out there for six heats.

Isleton just had a boat race. They ran three classes, Sport C, 45, and Cracker Box. They paid $250 tow money, Plus at least $1,000 PER CLASS PRIZE MONEY. Boat races don't need to run from sun up to sun down.

Classes at the SUMMER NATIONALS should be schedule based on the prior year's points. 14 D Runabout at Top of Michigan....Three at the Nationals??? Why? One reason I see, is the 8 boat rule....If a class is scheduled at the NATIONALS IT SHOULD BE ONE, IF ONE BOAT SHOWS UP......

POP POP'S POINT SYSTEM WOULD TELL YOU WHO WAS THE STOCK OUTBOARD HIGH POINT. And you could also see which class had the most boats racing...

Throw out the average for high points. Let HIGH POINTS BE HIGH POINTS. Go back to the days when Jimbo, Ernie, Ted and Ronnie drove 10,000 miles a year to try and win high points.