Future is Now

[Big Don]

how long after the merc J came out did it take to start seeing new people in J?

I don't know you tell me. But here we'll work on it together and see if we can figure it out...we can't count anyone that was already racing or that has raced before...

Kroll...darn nope he's running an OMC
Scheffler...nope his dad was already racing
Snyder... nope dad used to race
Shep...nope...opc racer
Pavlick....nope
Pavlick (the other one)...nope
Olson...nope Dad was racing
Mackey...nope dad used to race..wait i think he still does
crap I can't think of anyone...someone for Region 7 help me....

[bill boyes]

I do recall that when the Merc came out a a few bought them. Many had lots of trouble as they were just plain slow. There was only one Merc that was competitive as I recall and it was the prototype set up by Lynn Williams. People just gave up on the motor. Then comes George Stillwill and now the Merc is the Motor of choice in the J category.

[csh2z]

If new engines are going to bring new blood to the sport. (I believe it will help I may just not think in the volume that many of you do) and if the average male is around what 180 lbs according to a post earlier? So a pretty good size for the current Sidewinder 15. So how come we are not seeing in influx of new racers in BSH or BSR?

New motors, by themselves, will not bring new people in to the sport, it just gives them something that is easy to buy and an opportunity to be competitive. By having new motors available for all of our classes, it makes the sport more marketable. One very possible reason for the lack of growth could be the negativity towards the project by much of the current membership.

[csh12M]

Csh2z

Or perhaps.......... a 180lbs person can race 25SSR or 20SSH instead of BSR or BSH. Additionally if he chooses either of those options he can race anywhere in the country, not just at select local races. Oh yeah, and the motors in both those classes are cheaper.

We are offering to many options (classes) We need to force membership and new racers into the right class and equipment. That is not done at a Local level it needs to be done at a National level.

12M

[26V]

Your Right Carl

Quote"Now Kevin after reading all your rebuttals and negativism I think that you have some ulterior motive or something! If you don't like Deans proposal get your friends to support your views or list your stuff in the "Propeller" want ads section!" End Quote


You are absolutely right Carl, Kevin does have an ulterior motive. To bring new people to our sport. He has backed that up with his time and efforts. All he really wants is a solid and stable APBA Stock Outboard Division. He has to be confident that the info he passes on to some one interested in our sport is fact. And stays that way, this year, next year, year2, year3. Long enough for the newbie to get the lay of the land. Make some contacts and get serious about their racing program if they don't want to be a back marker. A long term plan that doesn't change from year to year as the commission changes. I had almost thought we where on the right path with Deans proposal. As we all can see the devil is in the details. And they kill us every time. Some people see a place to gain an advantage no matter the possible cost to the sport. Others are just trying to promote what they believe to be the best path for us to go. I believe most of us fit the second category. Theres only one little hitch, Most of us disagree on whats best for Stock Outboards. There is a lot of support for going back to Stock having A, B, C, D classes. I'd bet ( and I'm not a betting man) that if we took a vote tomorrow on the simple question.
Should we realign our class to A, B, C, D.
I truly believe that the vote would be positive, more members would vote yes then then would vote no. Thats the easy part, Now for the hard part, the part we are all so passionate about. How to realign the classes.
Kevin took exception to Deans telling him that yes with his weight A should be the only class for him. Why did Dean tell him that? To realign the classes and make the Y80, restricted 102/302 20ssh class the new B. Allow the 15CI HR to run at 12cc's, eliminate the SW15H and detune the SW20S to run with the 15CI HR. Thus preserving the 20ssh class and eliminating the current B class. I too take exception to that realignment for several reasons. IMHO its promoting old motors, eliminating a currently legal motor that is new. I personally would vote too do it anyway with 2 changes. 1- the SW15H stays along with the HR15 and runs with a 365 minimum weight. 2- the SW20 runs with the Y80,102,302 with a minimum weight of 400. thus preserving the 20ssh class and preserving the B class. This will allow both light and heaver drivers to run the class. And Not eliminate a new legal motor. It may not work, some people with more experience then I, don't think it will.
In my perfect world, we would have one motor per class. It could be purchased new, be competitive out of the box, no machining required OR allowed. To me personally that spells Stock Outboard.
For others its multiple motors per class like the Mercury verses Johnson days. If you could purchase them new and have them competitive out of the box. I could happily live with that. Break them in and go baby go. I can not see this happening in my life time. We could have it now in the A class. But the J category has control of the Merc motor. Leaving us with a less the optimal situation.



We need the older motors in A and the current B because no new motors for these classes have been available for 20+ years. Thus Kevin's comment about the flat head fords. It sucked having to buy 20 year old motors when I started. Sure I could have bought a 302 and started in C. But I honestly don't think I would still be racing if I had. If I'm to light for B how could I possibly run C? Can it be done hell yes, but I would not recommend it to a newbie thats less then 200lbs.



In the End The fastest teams will always be the fastest teams. They take the time and do their homework.



Thanks for letting me Rant.

[reed28n]

We are talking about the same thing year after year

So under your plan in 3 – 5 years…in ASR & ASH the OMC would be eliminated? In BSR the Old Hot Rod would be eliminated? In BSH the Old Hot Rod and the Yamato 80 would be eliminated? In CSR and CSH the 102 would be eliminated? The 25 engine would be eliminated?

I must have missed that in your proposal...I have to go back and read it again.

2009

J - Merc and OMC
AX- Merc and OMC

A - OMC, Sidewinder
15SS - 15CID Hot Rod and Sidewinder
20SSH - Yamato 80, Restricted 302
25 - 25 Merc, 20CID Hot Rod and Sidewinder
C - Yamato 102 and 302
D - Merc and Tohatsu

This was the plan that was in place. Rather than tweak it.......we completely abandoned it. allof the current motors all had a place to race. Very very few people would have had to make a change.

Each class had a new motor choice and very few parity issues. There was no mention of ever eliminating anything else. That was all fear spawned by opposers of this format, who oddly enough are looking now to do something close to this with more problems and bigger safety issues.

We only need to make a National class structure for national point and national competition. Local clubs can race multpile races or combine and score seperately what they need to. As motors fail drivers have new motor options.......we could go back to this plan and tweak it to make everyone comfortable rather than re invent the wheel....

We have to be committed to looking forward rather than argueing about the past. Whats done is done. All join hands, coombaya....praise Jesus ....whatever it takes lets go forward with a program that makes sense nationally that can be marketed. 10 core popular classes to present and let the drivers gravitate to their class before the next step is made if there ever needs to be one.

[14-H]

If new engines are going to bring new blood to the sport. (I believe it will help I may just not think in the volume that many of you do) and if the average male is around what 180 lbs according to a post earlier? So a pretty good size for the current Sidewinder 15. So how come we are not seeing in influx of new racers in BSH or BSR?

The new engine is slow. Mercs did not become popular in the J and AXS classes until people thought they could win with them.

[csh12M]

reed28N

Scott I am not talking the same thing, I am talking contraction.

I have tried to take the best of your plan, but what you outlined still has too many classes. We have as many classes now as we did in the 70's when we had 2000 SO racers. We now have 400 or less.... we are dividing the pie up to many ways.

[csh12M]

14h

C'mon 14H that is not enough of an answer.... it is part of the problem for sure. However, don't you think 20SSH and 25SSR cut into your potential BSR and BSH drivers?

[Tim Weber]

Ed my sentiments too.

If you want to sell new motors then the new one better **** have an advantage!

The crux is we want to have parody and not eliminate anyone. Yet, let's sell new motors. The only way to sell new motors is then to eliminate old motors.
We can't eliminate old motors because we can hardly field a race as it is.

This is an evil circle.

Tim

[14-H]

C'mon 14H that is not enough of an answer.... it is part of the problem for sure. However, don't you think 20SSH and 25SSR cut into your potential BSR and BSH drivers?

It is ABSOLUTELY the answer. Why do you think Richard owns a Hot Rod and not a Sidewinder?

[thepiranhabros]

Mackey...nope dad used to race..wait i think he still does...

Well, I guess you could call what I do racing...

[14-H]

Ed my sentiments too.

If you want to sell new motors then the new one better **** have an advantage!

The crux is we want to have parody and not eliminate anyone. Yet, let's sell new motors. The only way to sell new motors is then to eliminate old motors.
We can't eliminate old motors because we can hardly field a race as it is.

This is an evil circle.

Tim

Tim has it exactly right. If you want to sell new engines, they have to be competitive. That is why it took a while to sell Mercs in the J and AX classes. That may mean, at some point, that the old stuff has to be handicapped. But the new stuff has to at least run right.

With all do respect to my good friends at Sidewinder, there is something still wrong with the Model 15S (the B Class Sidewinder). Only one in the country runs right and it is owned by Richard Runne.

That is why I like Dean's idea [] of approving a slowed-down 20 Sidewinder in the B Classes.

But you are living in a dream world if you think that just approving new engines in a class and then eliminating (by removing) old engines on some made-up timetable that has no basis in reality will work. It won't. In fact, it will probably devastate all but 3 regions of racing in the U.S..

[csh12M]

14h

14H you are missing my point...as I said, it is part of the problem.

Why are Adam Low and Jake Alkema starting to race 25SSR and 20SSH?

They are the perfect weight for BSR and BSH.

[thepiranhabros]

...But you are living in a dream world if you think that just approving new engines in a class and then eliminating (by removing) old engines on some made-up timetable that has no basis in reality will work. It won't. In fact, it will probably devastate all but 3 regions of racing in the U.S..

Precisely! And this, for me, is the sticking point I have yet to be able to articulate. Why would we eliminate perfectly viable engines in any class? I am curious to know from where this three to five year timetable for planned engine obsolescence emerged.

Do not misunderstand; I am all for bringing in new engines. I think it is not only a great idea, but absolutely necessary for this sport to continue (and hopefully) thrive. However, it is also my opinion that the onus is on those who are producing the new engine(s) to spec them to run with the existing field. We all know who has the current killer engines out there, and we all know what they're turning for RPM and MPH. That is the benchmark. Go forth and produce!

As the older engines get to the point that they can no longer be rebuilt or there is no longer a sufficient parts inventory, those engines will die off in favor of the newer equipment.

Instituting a false supply-and-demand strategy by mandating "old" engines into obsolescence and forcing people to buy "new" engines will only be to the detriment of the sport.