Future is Now

[csh12M]

28N Timing is everything

Scott is right, this is close to what we were working toward. Timing is everything......I think everyone can now see the forest through the trees. I bet if you ask some of the same people that opposed a year ago what they think now you might get a different answer. This year has been very sobering

Lets get some opinions give me details not conjecture, why wont this class structure work? Lets discuss it class by class if we need to?

Cmon Scott, I know it was your idea first but lets shelf the politics for a moment and discuss the motors and classes.

I ask again, why WON'T this structure work.

Dean

[DiGia54D]

John,

Wasnt saying not to run as many club races, Was saying there has been times when There would be races on the same weekend within a 6 hour ride, so it breaks up classes.
I dont think this is a majority stock problem. Taunton, mass last week had only 2 CMH, both were Mercs. There is at least a 12 Yamato C-mods within NY,MA, ME, PA, NJ.
BMH had 1 boat. 20ssh had only 5 boats only 2 were 80's, CSH had about the same 5-6. Those 3 classes should be huge but there not coming to the races.

[jsilvestri]

Great ideas Dean!

[Mike Beegle]

Market the sport to people that can afford to support it. If you think $8,000. for a new rig is too much, you probably can't afford to race competitively anyway. The future is not about 30 year veterans or 30 year old motors. We need to attract new people with disposable income and offer them new available equipment. The reality is, many of us current racers that grew up in this sport would not be able to afford to race if we had to start from scratch like a new racer.
I'll continue in another post later. Gotta work.

This is the best answer yet... I got into mod in 1999 out of my own pocket book... Not with a garage full boats and equipment just given to me... Now im watching the same stuff happening in OPC the same arguements and the same challenges...

This problem in not just in stock n mod problem... To many clubs and to many back to back weekends

[RFR_Aero]

Ok how about this...

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Ok, here is a class structure for Stock. I am under the assumption that the two categories are not going to combine. I think they should but, for the moment I am working on paring down the Stock side.

ASR and ASH-racing OMC and Sidewinders

eliminate the current 13 cc Hot Rod rotary valve and Sidewinder motor class

BSR and BSH-racing the current rotary valve Hot Rod, but back at 12cc, and the 20 Sidewinder and the Yamato 80, I could go either way on also including the restricted 302.

CSR and CSH - For CSR you combine 25SSR and CSR as all legal CSR rigs. If you want to run lighter you run the restrictor. Include the MERC, but with the restrictor back into it and maybe a height restriction, or eliminate the MERC all together. I could go either way on that one. CSH stays the same, include the MERC with a restriction package.

DSH and DSR. Personally I think MOD offers a better package here. However, if we were going to keep it in Stock we keep it as is.

Add your JH and JR with whatever the J committee deems the class to race. Run AXH and AXR with the ASH and ASR at the local level.

- Everyone still has a place to race every current motor
- Selling to a new guy we can position a new motor for every class
- Selling to a new guy we can position a used motor in every class
- The program would be 20 heats 3.5-4 hours
- We could run all classes 3 times over two days

We sell new A Sidewinders for the A class
We sell new B (20 cub.) Sidewinders for the B class
We sell 302 for the C class
We sell Tohotsu for the D class

This program would only shake up the current HOT RODs and MERCs and maybe some 25 drivers. All would still have a place to race their rig. However, we would be effecting only the smallest classes.

I would envision trying to run the whole program twice on Saturday 40 heats and once on Sunday. Get people on the road by 3PM.

Ok let me have it....why wont this format work?





__________________


If you combine hydros & runabouts but score them separatly, how do you handle eliminations?

[jtower3941]

I agree with 12M on class structure. But run what you bring on Saterday and advertise this as elinimation heats to the public every body gets to run whats on the sanction. Put boats on display and people to answer questions on Sat. Then on Sunday advertise Final Championships to public. Sunday schedule will be for those classes that 12M suggests. A sponcer may like the Sunday program and public will see race program with drivers and boats that can be reconized, local TV and Newspaper can setup prerace day articals so public knows that we are racing. This takes preregisteration. Calling you fellow drivers ane get them to race knowing 5 or more of you are going to be racing. A bummer driving 5 hrs. to find only 1 other boat in your class. But Saterday you will run maybe with the J's but you will race two heats on Saterday. Start the season with successful race sites and work on them with this format in mind. If each region had two successful race sites that would mean equal driving for all. Some 5hrs others 2hrs. But good racing when you get there.

[csh12M]

Not combining Hydros and Runabouts

I was not suggesting we combine Hydros and Runabouts.

Basically I am saying lets combine what is now BSH into 20SSH and combine the present 25 classes with CSR and CSH.

This would get us back to:

A,B,C,D classes for Runabout and Hydros.

I think this is a VERY simple and WORKABLE plan and I am not seeing any opinions.

Here is a little data, and I think Mark Miskerik can/will confirm. Mark has won both 20SSH Titles with a Yamato 80 and BSH Titles with a rotary valve HOT ROD at 12CC (Currently it is at 13) Top 20SSH running a Yamato 80 run 65-65.5. They typically run on 36" wide 10' Hydro. Top BSH speeds in the 12CC day were 64.5-65. On a 34" wide bottom with a 9.5' boat. The 20cubinc inch Sidewinder so far has not been competitive in 20SSH so I think it is safe to assume for the moment it is only going 63-64? I believe we can combine these classes together.

I need Pater to confirm the next fact about the 25SSR. I believe that the best 25SSR Yamatos go the same speed as the best CSR about 64.
Combine the class and let CSR drives have the option of running 475 without the restrictor or 25 weight (I am not sure what 25 weight is?) with it. Put the Merc in with the restrictor and now it is back to 64, and we have another class!

25SSH is the only class on the outside looking in. Put it in CSH with the restricor and a height restriction.

We are now down to:

J, A, B, C, D

Each class had a good "new engine" option and a used engine option. We increase our field sizes decrease our program length and we can run 3 times over two days with one rig! More water time. This program appeals to "new names"!! and effects the least amount of our existing base.

Again, why wont this structure work, shoot some holes in it?????

[Mike Beegle]

I agree with 12M on class structure.. If each region had two successful race sites that would mean equal driving for all. Some 5hrs others 2hrs. But good racing when you get there.

Another great suggetion that should not be over looked... You guys should start a Series and have Series races within the regions..Take the premier sites that are getting publicity and a crowd and spread these out through the season... Back to back weekends suck for everyone and competing race dates... Work with the west coast to market the nationals as a East vs West Series national championship..

I also believe we need to get rid of all the regions in the APBA and restructure it... There are too many the country should be broke down into 4 regions... Lets face it when this was all put together way back when people didnt drive 10 hours to race they didnt need to... This would make for alot more competition and draw people competing for region high points to more races they would normally not attend...

[Haüenstein]

Top speeds are nice

Here is a little data, and I think Mark Miskerik can/will confirm. Mark has won both 20SSH Titles with a Yamato 80 and BSH Titles with a rotary valve HOT ROD at 12CC (Currently it is at 13) Top 20SSH running a Yamato 80 run 65-65.5. They typically run on 36" wide 10' Hydro. Top BSH speeds in the 12CC day were 64.5-65. On a 34" wide bottom with a 9.5' boat. The 20cubinc inch Sidewinder so far has not been competitive in 20SSH so I think it is safe to assume for the moment it is only going 63-64? I believe we can combine these classes together.

I need Pater to confirm the next fact about the 25SSR. I believe that the best 25SSR Yamatos go the same speed as the best CSR about 64.
Combine the class and let CSR drives have the option of running 475 without the restrictor or 25 weight (I am not sure what 25 weight is?) with it. Put the Merc in with the restrictor and now it is back to 64, and we have another class!

Does anyone have lap times comparing all the above classes? We could look at lap times from a variety of race courses and regions to get a good idea if these class combinations are really feasible.

MAH

[dholt]

Current 3 mile 3 lap record in 25ssR= 57.0 mph
Current 3 mile 3 lap record in CSR= 57.5 mph

[csh12M]

You can always count on Holt!

Thanks Dana, but give me more.

What do you think D Holt. I am sure you know how the 20SSH and BSH (at 12cc compare) You are the testing king. I believe they are spot on?

1. Do you agree the about the 20SSH BSH speeds
2. As a top 20SSH driver would you welcome the Hot Rods Sidewinders into the class. Raise entries, shorten the race day?
3. Overall what is your opinion, could you live with it, would you welcome it?

No riding the fence, Yea or Nay and reasons why?

[B Walker]

100% in agreement on getting back to the ABCD class structure and your path for getting there.

The numbers your giving for 25SSR and CSR exactly match my testing for MPH.

However, lap times may be significantly off as it takes alot longer for the Yamato with a restrictor to get there.

The cost for shortening the race day will be higher entry fees. We ready for that?

BW

[Dave M]

Amazing

Dean,

Amazing how getting back to the original class structures is such a good thing. Maybe those old timers actually knew something.

I agree with your structure for Stock. Would make the day more enjoyable. With my 30 years racing, I get bored watching 4 and 5 boat races. I stand up to watch any class that has 12 boats in it on a medium to short course. That is racing and is exciting, and marketable. Long course are not the future of boat racing, it spreads us out to much, and is boring to watch a parade. Keep the racing tight, people like watching that. I would rather watch 12 ASH's on a 3/4 mile track than watch 5 or 6 FEH's on a 3/4 Mile track or even a 1 mile track. Put 10 FEH's on the same track and it is exciting to watch.

Just my opinion. You need to structure the classes so you can have full fields in each class. I also don't feel there is enough racers in mod and stock to say one engine in each class is viable. You can have the preferred engines, but I feel if you limit it to one engine in either category, you are not achieving needed results.

This same idea has been pitched at APBA many times, it has never made it past a light discussion. Dana was going to pitch it several years ago and if memory serves Dana, we wrote something up to submit. I think that time, probably what 7 years ago or so, it never even made the agenda, it was shot down well prior to that.

At any rate, good luck, something needs to change, as the numbers don't lie. It has been obvious to some of for 10 years. Change is hard I guess.

One more pitch, I still feel you need to make sure you keep the cost to get into racing low, $8K is a lot of cash to ask someone to toss out. Lets face it, you can't turn around and sell it for even 5K the next week. It has never worked that way in boat racing, and never will. The second we buy new, it depreciates faster than a Ford driving off the lot.

One more point, it sounds like what Dean is trying to accomplish is to make Stock Outboard the premier category to race in, new engines, new gear, very structured, etc. Mod will be the place for the less than 8K of disposable income. No dig on you Dean at all, just pointing that perception out.

[csh12M]

Bw

BW we will run all the classes three times over two days. It could become the standard at a race. Entries increase by one third. 40 heats on Saturday, 20 heats on Sun. if that is how you choose to split it. Bonus the guy who races one class increases his racing by a third. Selling one rig to the new guy gets a little easier, he gets six heats for the weekend instead of 4.

Shorter weekend race format
More watertime per single class
Entries should remain close to the same
More people get to 15 races for National High Points

Cmon keep them coming, why wont this work?

Thanks,
Dean
CSH12M

[Gunjumper]

The restrictor will slow the accel. numbers but remember your running 45lbs lighter with the 9/16 restrictor in 25. The GPS shows the same MPH in my books with the 25 and the CSR, Combine them, a stout 25 will run competitively with the CSR's, heck, aside from the Mercs, 25 runabout is just C2SR...