25SSR Record Smashed

[14-H]

Yea...., sorry about that one. Just throwing out ideas at this point. The best one to me would be to let the 25 Merc runabout drivers run without the resticter. Talking to a few people, it seems to me that this would remedy most problems.

Matt Gallagher
58J

Except for the guys that want to run Hot Rods. You know, there are plans to make more of them. Eddie.

[ryan_4z]

There is only one Hot Rod(as far as I know), that is running in 25 right now. One person is not reason enough to hold back the progress of an entire class.

[jsilvestri]

I disagree with Mike: the 25SSR class should be eliminated if all it will be is a second CSR class. The Yamatos were legalized for the purpose of giving the Mercs and the Hot Rods people to play with AND as a potential second class for the guys with Yamatos. If we can't fulfill BOTH reasons, the class should be eliminated. Then the guys with the Mercs and Hot Rods can run BMR. The 25SSR is a great experiment, but let's not lose the Merc guys. My solution: 1-3/8 for everybody. If that's too much of a restriction for the Yamatos, pull the restrictors and give 'em the punch back. But put everyone at 1-3/8". 14-H.

ADD: By the way, if I were the 25SSH guys, I'd oppose like hell the introduction of another motor based upon the track record in 25SSR.

I felt it was time to repost one of Ed's comments as some have forgotten the reason for running multiple engine in the 25ssR class to begin with. And, I'll add that if you want to race a 12ft runabout with a Yamato on the back, then I suggest you race CSR and I am a 185lb. driver who races CSR.

[csh12M]

Perfect timing

Perfect timing Joe.....that post is right on in my mind.

Later,
12

[mike ross]

As John Runne pointed out in his post we need to look at classes that have alot of boats. We tried this experiment and it shows you that after we let the Yamatos in This class flourised. We need to keep on this path to create classes that our competitive and easy to get equipment for. If we had the factory selling us Mercs we wouldn't have had to do this. Lets face it if we can't get new motors then we will be combining things. We need to get down to just a few classes of hydro and runabout. Right now this class we created is one of the largest and is very competitive. This is the direction we need to move toward. Give the Mercs a little bump and lets move to the next class and see if we can make the same strides we did here. Mike

[ryan_4z]

As far as I am concerned, and I know many of you will disagree, the Merc and the Hot Rod are dead in this class. The problem we find ourselves in is that this has become a viable class for the Yamato. So the question we must ask is do we want to keep this class, knowing that it is another CSR. As good as this class has become, I personally would not be opposed to eliminating the class. It would be the first step in getting down to the A B C D format. Which is something it seems we would all like to achieve in the near future. If we do want to get to an A B C D class structure, 25ssR would logically be the first class to eliminate.

[Tim Weber]

I happen to like the 25ssr Yamato and here is why.

1) It is an opportunity for me to get two rides on a race day vs one. I am a runabout only guy and frankly I am too big to run A & B and be competitive.
A lot of us have to drive 6-10 hours to race and this is a nice bonus ride.

2) Its a lot of fun!

3) It gives us 2 bigger runabout classes. We complain about small class sizes
and lets see, in the runabout ranks we have JSR, AXSR, ASR, FAR, BSR, BMR
25ssr, CMR, CSR. I ommitted DSR, DMR because they only run at nationals.
We have 6 classes with little boats and 2 1/2 with big boats ( 2 1/2 because
we have been combining boats in 25 ). It seems to me that if we are going to cut classes, we should cut some of the small, 10 ft boat classes!

Who is going to go along with this? Hardly any one. For example, Chairmen Ed races every small runabout class except J and his protege races AXSR. That's great! They do it with 2 boats and thats a lot of bang for the buck.

I would like to know what the class participation is in FAR and BMR. I would bet its not near as large as 25. We talk about cutting 25 and we have more of them than the SACRED BSR. If anything cut these three!

Now, I really do like the BSR class and we hopefully will have a revitalization with the anticipated rebirth of Hot Rod. A true BSR is a cool ride.

Ryan mentioned getting back to a real A,B,C,D format. With no real viable D as a national class ( no, I am not picking on Hydros ), what did we have 7 DSR's this year? Here's the line up.

JSR, AXSR, ASR, BSR, 25ssr, CSR

As far as the merc 25 motor, we only have a handful in the runabout ranks. Make the merc 25 a legal B motor and restrict it to run with Hot Rods.

What a lot of people forget is this. The current CSR runs about as fast as the old 55H DSR. A restricted Yamato runs about like a 30H. I hear the comment of a restricted Yamato is nothing but another CSR. It really isn't. I compare the ride to a 30H. It goes fairly well in a straight line but its a pig in the turns.

4) We have motors readily available! Lets' see, can I buy a new OMC A, Hot Rod B, or Merc 25 today? NO!

We want new people and currently a new guy can buy new equipment and run two classes with the same motor. That's a lot of bang for the buck.

5) The restricted Yamato 25 is evolving. We are starting to see boats built just for it. The first that comes to mind is Jerry Davids. Jerry has built a boat super light just for 25. I for one, am planning on a 25 only boat.

6)Lets assume we do go back to our A,B,C,D structure. With making the merc 25 a B motor, we just did it.

ASR ( powered by OMC A )
BSR ( powered by Hot Rod, Merc 25 )
25ssr ( powered by Y-80 or restricted 102/302 )
CSR ( powered by 102/302 )

I consider AXSR a kids class. Since we had 7 or 8 real JSR's the AXSR has taken that spot.

The above sure looks a lot like our old structure from 30 years ago.

7) Since we now have 4 runabouts classes we need to tweak.

ASR ( do nothing )

BSR ( add the Merc and figure out how to make it run close to the Hot Rod )

25ssr ( raise the minimum weight 30 or 40 pounds because unless you weigh about 150 pounds no one can come close to the current 405 pounds)

CSR ( raise the weight to 500 pounds which was the old DSR weight. Why? It gives big guys like Mike Ross a better chance. Also, it will allow us to make a stronger, safer boat.

If you notice, I have ommitted mod from this. Why? Mod can not sustain itself in the runabout classes on its own. Am I saying to rid ourselves of Mod?
No! We have to be smarter where we run it ( open stacks, class sizes ). Three boat races stink and we have too many of these.

Tim

[mike ross]

Tim I think your on the right track here. Keep the 10 fotters together. Get the 12 footers a couple of options. When the new Hot Rods comes out we should be able to get that class up to speed as we did with this 25 class. If we are going to grow we need to have that bang for the buck. We also can have that experienced 25 driver throw some lead in and give it a try with some other competitors he may want to do battle with(Matt & Ryan we want you). If your a light guy you may have the advantage but some of the big guys still may want to due battle with you. I think we need to work toward that 4 class program for the future. We will grow if we get to this. We need to give the Merc guys the bump this year as they are the minority currently. Remember if we don't get new motors combining is going to be an ongoing challenge going forward. Mike

[ryan_4z]

Tim,

Your class structure may be the way to go. There really seems to be no demand for the current D class. The only part I disagree with is keeping the Merc 25. All the problems with the Merc seem to come from the restricter. Restricting it further seems like it would only amplify these problems. Beside that you are talking about slowing it down 4-5 mph, thats a big drop. Add the fact that only a small handfull of guys are running it. I'm not saying eliminate it immediately, but I think its time to phase the 25 out. The yamato resticters dont even slow down the CSRs 1 mph. With the hopefull revitalization of the Hot Rod, A would be the only class without an in production motor. Since the class is still doing strong, we could take our time, gather research, and make say a 5 year phase in/out plan to change motors in the A class.

[Tim Weber]

Ryan,

The only reason I say lets keep the Merc 25 for now is that there are a few guys out there with the equipment. The first few that come to mind are Jeff Brewster, Darrel Ludwig and Brian Rhodes. I don't want to chase these guys off the race course. They need time to adjust their equipment to whatever rules we come up with. That's why I suggested the merc in BSR. Then we have all the same size boats and all roll up boats.

By the way, when I run a restictor in the Yamato, it is slower for me than 1mph. I see about 3 slower without the punch.

Tim

[ryan_4z]

I think that these guys need to be prepared though for the fact that the direction we are heading may not have a place for these motors, if we actually want to get to the A B C D class structure. I have said it before and I'll say it again, I do not believe in trying to acheive motor parity, I believe that we should be racing one motor per class. That is the best way to acheive equallity in a class.

[14-H]

I believe that we should be racing one motor per class. That is the best way to acheive equallity in a class.

That is ridiculous! Is there motor-parity in the A classes? Is there motor parity in the Yamato Classes? Is there motor parity in any single-engine class? Are the only differences in propeller and boat? The only thing you do when you eliminate a motor from a class is chase racers away. Engine combinations saved the B Mod class as well as the 25SSR class. However, in B Mod, the Hot Rods eventually quit racing in APBA (they're still around, just not in APBA) due to the very same delimma currently facing 25SSR: refusal to follow-through with engine compatibility changes that were/are needed. Look how well engine compatibility has worked in the J and AXS classes. This statement is just plain wrong! Ed.

[ryan_4z]

The reason I believe this is because different motors have different characteristics on different parts of the course. This is what makes achieving parity so difficult. I think that certain motors will have more of an advantage on different courses. We can make motors comparable on the top end speed, but that doesn't mean that they are necessarily compatible. Yes I do believe that there is motor parity in single-engine classes. There may be slight differences, that can't be changed. At least I know when I go on the race course I am running against people with the same motor. Maybe I'm just old fashioned in my thinking, but that is the way I think racing should be.

[racerchic3z]

Ed,

I got a new guy who wants to start racing next year. He's a perfect fit for 25SSR. Which engine do you recommend he buys? Are the rules going to change this year, or next year, or the next? If he buys a Yamato because thats whats wininng now, are we going to take the restrictor out of the Merc and make that the better motor? If so, maybe he should buy the Merc, unless of course we tweak the Yamato the following year. It might be best if i just direct him to a more stable class. Let's think about the future and not what's best for you or me. We've got to stop making selfish decisions.

John Runne

[14-H]

Ed,

I got a new guy who wants to start racing next year. He's a perfect fit for 25SSR. Which engine do you recommend he buys? ***Let's think about the future and not what's best for you or me. We've got to stop making selfish decisions.
John Runne

John: Don't you think the 302 is the safest bet? Are you also going to tell him that the 302 will be obsolete in a few years by the 402? Why not, rather, explain that the 25SSR class is one of the safest classes to become involved in because the Stock Outboard Racing Commission will ensure that all motor makes are competitive regardless of the one he buys. Oops! That part's not true. Ed.

BTW: I haven't raced in 25SSR for over a year.