Stock chairman for 2010?

[MARATHONMAN]

KISS PLAN . What ? Keep it simple stupid. Exactly when a motor works and can show it is the ticket people will buy it. Please don't take this wrong The Sidewinder people are working their BUTTS of to make it work . All I am saying is the Merc was advertised to be an A stock motor. So Be it . If it doesent work for everyone they will run the omc . Just another option. MORE BOATS; MORE SEAT TIME : MORE FUN !!! Team Casual 51-m

[17W]

If the A class is going to keep going strong we need new motors ,perhaps the OMC should be eliminated.
The Merc 15 is currently produced in a factory with American workers. Please tell me where to get a new CURRENTLY PRODUCED OMC A motor. Thank you.

Yes, the Mercury 15hp is produced in the USA for EXPORT USE ONLY! The powers to be @ APBA has made the arrangements to procure from these EXPORT engines.

Can any of the "powers to be" please elaborate on the arrangement made to obtain these engine(s) from Mercury? Was it a one time buy or an open ended agreement?

[mercguy]

Last year I was upset to find out the motors I bought were being phased out. But now that we have finished our second year it makes no difference to me now that I have decided if I want to run a second class "RUN MOD".

Strap some pipes onto your 80 or 102 and have fun again.

come on over to the "dark side"............... SLORA used to have a big CMH class years ago.................bring it back!

[blueskyracer]

come on over to the "dark side"............... SLORA used to have a big CMH class years ago.................bring it back!

Thats the plan. Now that the Dawe is screwed up if I have time we are going to make a couple C Mod boats. I liked your pipes. Got to get me some. May have to run with the D stockers till we get some more folks interested.

The "Dark side" is cool.

[Cameraboy]

...And for God's sake, let the old engines die in their classes from attrition rather than because of all of this petty and senseless bickering.

The new stuff is on the horizon, and in a few cases already here. When it can hold its own with the old stuff and start beating it, the old stuff will go away on its own.

(Now stepping down from my soapbox...)

I have no problem with that approach - IF one can guarantee that that within a couple of years someone will not approach the SORC with a plea to slow a "new" engine down "because all of these guys will quit rather than spend all that money on a new engine" and that the SORC won't rollover and make that accomodation.

It seems to be hard for the SORC to refrain from continuing to approve aftermarket parts for out-of-production motors - maybe due to a sense of obligation that it is still a "legal" motor.

Will racers refrain from telling newbies - "yeah, buy the "old" motor - it's cheaper, and there are guys that can still compete with it"?

So when do they really die from attrition?

[Affholter66]

So when do they really die from attrition?[/QUOTE]

when racers stop racing them..ie the 20h merc/30h merc..
(I may be wrong but I believe they are both still "legal" engines)

You don't go and kill half of a class or better because "the motors are old" and "not really stock anymore" Hell we ain't had "stock" motors in who knows how long....and I agree don't "slow" the new motors down..Letting the "New" motors BEAT the "old" motors is HOW motors "go away" wow what a concept

[thepiranhabros]

I have no problem with that approach - IF one can guarantee that that within a couple of years someone will not approach the SORC with a plea to slow a "new" engine down "because all of these guys will quit rather than spend all that money on a new engine" and that the SORC won't rollover and make that accomodation.

It seems to be hard for the SORC to refrain from continuing to approve aftermarket parts for out-of-production motors - maybe due to a sense of obligation that it is still a "legal" motor.

Will racers refrain from telling newbies - "yeah, buy the "old" motor - it's cheaper, and there are guys that can still compete with it"?

So when do they really die from attrition?

I have no problem with that approach - IF one can guarantee that that within a couple of years someone will not approach the SORC with a plea to slow a "new" engine down "because all of these guys will quit rather than spend all that money on a new engine" and that the SORC won't rollover and make that accomodation. If I could make those guarantees, I would. I am totally in favor of letting the best rise to the top. The existing engine base is the standard; meet it or beat it, or nobody's going to buy the new stuff. It really is that simple. As for a plea to slow down a new engine, I could be wrong, but it appears to me that the new engines need to be made to go faster in order for them to compete (the Merc 15 in A; please correct me if I am wrong).

It seems to be hard for the SORC to refrain from continuing to approve aftermarket parts for out-of-production motors - maybe due to a sense of obligation that it is still a "legal" motor. This is a tough call, because you're essentially asking for the planned obsolescence of an engine. In other words, when a new engine is introduced, immediately impose a moratorium date for OEM and after-market parts production. Same can be said for existing engines in the field. Who will decide the deadline? What will that deadline be? (10 years? 20?) Suppose a new engine does not emerge within the specified obsolescence time of the old engine? While I like this concept because it would put an end to the surprise obsolescence of engines, there are many caveats here that require much more, higher ranking discussions. (More that can or should be had on HR anyway, no offense intended.)

Will racers refrain from telling newbies - "yeah, buy the "old" motor - it's cheaper, and there are guys that can still compete with it"? No. I'm afraid that will never happen. If there is one constant in Stock Outboard, it is that people will generally take the path of least expense when diving into this sport. But I have to pose the question, What is really wrong with that philosophy if it brings in a new driver? If the old engine really is still a viable and competitive option that costs less than new, why discourage it? After a couple of seasons, the new racer may have saved enough discretionary income to justify the expense of the new engine. We do this with boats. I can honestly say I have never met a brand new racer who came in with a brand new boat. In my experience, the new driver always comes in with somebody's old rig that may or (in most cases) may not be competitive. This is where the planned obsolescence option has great merit, so a new person coming in knows exactly how long s/he can expect to race their equipment before having to buy new.

So when do they really die from attrition? Again, it is my opinion and true belief that an engine will die from attrition when, and only when, there is new equipment readily available that is matching and beating it on the race course.

[Kev43V]

ALL very good points Mike
Now my question is how do you work that out with merc AND sidewinder in A?
by default wouldn't you have to favor the newest motor?

[thepiranhabros]

ALL very good points Mike
Now my question is how do you work that out with merc AND sidewinder in A?
by default wouldn't you have to favor the newest motor?

Kev:

It seems to me having both of these engines in A comes down to a question of good old competition. Which engine has the performance edge? Which engine has the better supply stream of OEM parts? Which engine is more user-friendly and easier to work on? To me, it becomes a matter of personal preference. ("Are you a Ford guy or a Chevy?" guy can be replaced in our parlance with "Are you a Merc guy or are you a Sidewinder guy?") In my opinion, this competition is a good thing that can not only help with engine development in the A class, but across the entire spectrum of the sport.

Michael

[thepiranhabros]

Well, they have the OMC motor so fast because of all the changes made to the rules over the years, leaving us today with an "A" class that in my opnion is now on the edge of too fast,AND a modified motor,- so if your theory is correct then after we play with the Sidewinder for a couple of years it will be the norm for ASH to run in the 60's,- Not a good idea IMHO.

MAKE THE NEW MOTOR THE "PLATFORM" -AND MAKE THE OLD RUN WITH THE NEW ONE,- 3-5 MPH WILL MAKE NO DIFFERENCE IN ANYONE'S FUN

as a matter of fact if APBA, SORC or anybody else involved around here lets the Sidewinder get approved if its faster than the current OMC ASH they have all lost there mind's!

I apologize, Todd. I wasn't exactly clear when making my statement about making engines faster. I am on your side 100%. I am of the opinion that the A class is fast enough as it stands, and that A class engines coming up should not be made to go faster than current speeds. (Let us not forget that there are many other factors at work besides speed when it comes racing; setup, propellers, driver attitude and experience, and sometimes just dumb luck all have to combine to put a driver in the winner's circle.)

I've been hearing arguments that the Merc 15 isn't in an A class engine because its speed is off when paired with an OMC A. What I should have been more clear in saying is that the Merc (or any new incoming engine) needs to be tweaked so it is brought up to current OMC A speeds.

Of course, the argument will be made that once parity is achieved between the Merc and OMC, the Merc can (and will) be made to go faster, turning the A class into a 60 MPH class. This is a valid argument, but it is also one that requires us to consider placing a cap on speeds for classes, which is a whole other can of worms. But maybe this is an argument that, perhaps discussed and decided years ago, would have alleviated much of the pains we're experiencing today.

Michael Mackey
21-V

[Howie Nichols]

My thoughts on the A class

Keep the OMC as it it is.

Put the Merc back in the class as it is, NO more modifications.

Keep the Sidewinder in as it is.

Keep the current weights, do not adjust them per which motor you run.

If the Merc is slower (like it is now except for a few) then so be it, you can run it if you like, fill in the class if you like, but know it "probably" will not win.

As time goes on, people WILL migrate to whatever is the fastest motor if that is what they want or will at least have the option to keep running the old stuff and finsih as they may.

I disagree with the thought of (per current rules) if you want to run the Merc in A to have more water time you can do it locally. This does little to nothing to help the class. Example - If 7 A boats are at the Divisionals then no "qualifier" would make it in for the Nationals, but if someone with a Merc elected to run then there is your 8th boat because it is a "legal" entry.

Again just my thoughts / opinion.

[csh2z]

Make the Sidewinder legal in AXS so those drivers can get two classes.

[26V]

Make the Sidewinder legal in AXS so those drivers can get two classes.

Which brings up the point that Sidewinders are actualy 3 motors. and all three motors only have one class they can run in.

the Merc currently has 3 in 2010 it will have 2 classes to run in.
I would have to look it up to know what classes the yamoto has depending on its version doen't the 302 have 3? 102 has 2? 80 has 1 I think
Tohatsu and 44sx has one class.
Sidewinder is producing 3 motors for 3 different classes.

My question is how can the SORC provide support for the Sidewinder?
any thoughts?

[Hutch06]

Sidewinder AXS

Make the Sidewinder legal in AXS so those drivers can get two classes.

I think this is a great idea for Sidewinder and the SORC to eventually shoot for. However, in playing the devil's advocate, wouldn't this make for another 3 motor class? To me it sounded like that is part of the reason why the Merc has been taken out of A for 2010 (not saying this is good or bad, just making a point).

Personally I believe in an entry level class, which essentially is what the AXS and arguably the A class is, a wider option on motor choice (and the variety of classes one can run them in) is a good thing for new racers. I can attest that when starting out, being able to run 4 heats a day vs. only 2 heats a day makes the distance traveled to a race site much more enjoyable and worthwhile. Maybe this could be a platform for younger/newer racers purchasing the "A" Sidewinder

[Cameraboy]

Mike, thanks for taking the time for some well-reasoned and valid responses. Makes for the type of discussion I like having over a beer.

In response to your question about new folks buying older motors, that's absolutely a great way for new people to enter our sport. As long as they have their eyes open in terms of expectations (eyes opened by the info they can access here and from the existing racing family). If they know they are buying a starter rig that in a couple of years they pass on to another newbie when they invest in newer & faster stuff, that's the best case. If they want to quit a couple of years later because they are falling back in the pack as their equipment ages further, then that should be due to their own stubborness, not because we as a family have done them a disservice in the advice we are giving.