Sidewinders

[Kev43V]

Andrew
the 20 is 100 bucks more than the A and 15. A and 15 4500, 20 4600
I was told the differences in the 15 and the A but I do not want to tell you. LOL
cause I might get it wrong as I would be going off of my memory and I suffer from CRS- Can't Remember...... Stuff

There was at least one(20) on the rack at Rons tent at Grass lake

[Andrew 4CE]

Thanks Kev I suffer greatly from CRS too. And CTWC (Can't Type Worth Crap)

Someone in Jersey had an A I think? Testing a prototype or owner I can't remember... in any case, will anyone have one (any model) at Kingston?

[14-H]

***It is a delicate balance maintaining the existing membership and attracting new members. But asking a prospective racer to understand where to get a basket full of parts and ask them to ship them all over our continent to get it assembled is not the answer.

I have more faith in new members and our existing ones to give good advice in this regard. I know there are exceptions, but generally, potential new members do get good information from our membership about what to buy and what it will do for them.

Additionally, it is just a little naive to think that putting in all brand new equipment into a class and eliminating all of the old will create a full field of boats sufficient to sustain a class. Racing Outboards cannot make engines fast enough to do this. It was a little different when Outboard Marine Corporation or Mercury Marine was making the racing engines.

There is simply no good reason to eliminate the old engines and plenty of bad reasons to do it. It risks destruction of the class and, quite frankly, the Category, to do this.

[14-H]

***I believe adding the 102 to the 25SSR class was a mistake. Ed did not want to add the 102 to the 25SSR class because he felt it "bastardized" the class.
and is now willing bastradize every class.
***.

This is not correct. I did not want to add the 102 to 25SSR because I knew that it would be faster than the 302 at the time and that it would dominate the class and no one would want to buy a 302 in order to compete in 25R. You see, I fully support the concept that the new engines should be the ones of choice.

It turns out, I was right about this too. Until the rules were loosened on the 302 to allow some modifications, a 102 won 25R every year. Its addition to this class nearly eliminated the use of all other engines until recently.

[14-H]

Bastardization

*** Ed did not want to add the 102 to the 25SSR class because he felt it "bastardized" the class.
and is now willing bastradize every class.

***.

It is not a bastardization of a class to put in new equipment and to progressivly make it competitive and the equipment of choice. This worked in J, AXS, C and it is now working in D.

It is a bastardization to put an obsolete engine into an existing class and let it dominate the class. That is what happened with the addition of the 102 to 25SSR and this is why I opposed it.

It is naive to think that arbitrary "axe" dates will work for the elimination of motors in our classes. How many times has the SORC altered the "fully legal" dates for the Sidewinders???

[pav225]

Additionally, it is just a little naive to think that putting in all brand new equipment into a class and eliminating all of the old will create a full field of boats sufficient to sustain a class...

There is simply no good reason to eliminate the old engines and plenty of bad reasons to do it. It risks destruction of the class and, quite frankly, the Category, to do this.

I couldn't agree more!

[reed28n]

Ed

It is naive to think that arbitrary "axe" dates will work for the elimination of motors in our classes. How many times has the SORC altered the "fully legal" dates for the Sidewinders???

Please name for everyone the classes that have these arbitrary motors being axed and please state the logic from the elected commission, with only one appointment Bob Trolian.

There has been a perception developed that all old motors will be obsoleted and only new motors will be legal. That is not the case. Careful consideration was given by the steering committee you formed and endorsed. No one has unplugged Grandma yet please list the motors and dates.

You are cultivating a panic that everything is lost, please post some facts of the class structure you oppose.

ASH, ASR Johnson & Evinrude “A”, Mercury “A,” , Sidewinder 15S1A (probationary)
BSH, BSR Hot Rod A, Sidewinder 15H1A
CSH, CSR Yamato 102 & 302
DSH, DSR Mercury Mark 55-H, 402XS, Mercury/Mariner 44XS, Bass/Tohatsu
20SSH Yamato 80 or Yamato 102 & 302 with 7/16” Restrictor, Sidewinder 20 CID (probationary)
25SSH Mercury/25SS, Mercury/Mariner 25XS without carburetor restrictor, and Hot Rod (20 c.i.)
25SSR Mercury/25SS, Mercury/Mariner 25XS without carburetor restrictor, and Hot Rod (20 c.i.), Yamato 80, Yamato 302 (9/16” or 1/2”
restrictor), Yamato 102 (9/16” or 1/2” restrictor), Sidewinder 20S1A (probationary)
45SS Johnson & Evinrude 45SS

[14-H]

Please name for everyone the classes that have these arbitrary motors being axed and please state the logic from the elected commission, with only one appointment Bob Trolian.
***

ASR, ASH, 25SSR & 20SSH all have engines being removed according to current rules passed at the last annual meeting. The Stock Outboard Chairman broke the tie to remove engines from the A Classes, meaning that the engines will now be removed from these classes.

[Blackhawkguy]

So did anyone??????????

So did anyone ever answer Mr. Ladd's question, it was a simple question and 5 pages later we are talking about everything but the question, and we wonder what is wrong with Stock Outboard. Ask a simple question get everything but a straight answer and six thousands opinions none of wich apply to the question. I think some where in the five pages when discusing something about a cult there almost was a answer but not sure.

Is the sidewinder factory planning on having dealers simular to how Little did it when he reinvented the hot rod, I believe Don Hageral was a dealer for the Northern Michigan area at that time, so if there was a dealer in the general area they could provide a sample engine for people to look at.

Kerry

[steve smith 150m]

Kerry, I dont think there will ever be a Sidewinder motor in our area, that we will be able to touch or test. We will have to rely on reports from others to garner our opinons. Don Hagerl has been the guru for Hot Rods, in our area for years. He also helped my son with legal motor blueprinting, advice,ect, from the start. We wouldn't still be racing if it wern't for people like Don or George Jenkins.

[carl]

Sidewinder engines

I am just curious as to all the "flak" that John has taken with regards to his engines. (what class, cost, apparently tamper proof, etc.,etc.), My only question is are these engines readily available, if not what would the "lead" time be if one would like to order the "A" version.
Carl

[csh2z]

All three class motors are available. The 15SS motor is currently legal for B and is very competitive with the best Hot Rods in the country, has been all year. The A motor is and has been available since last fall. There are currently 3 on the west coast and so far 1 on the east coast. These motors are currently probationary and have been performing among the best the A classes has to offer. The 20 motor is also in its probationary phase and being tested. I expect to see it racing on the east coast for the remainder of the year beginning at Lock Haven. I ran the prototype 20c.i. last year a few times but more testing had to be done. They decided to concentrate on the 15 & A and put the 20 on the back burner. Racing outboards has enough parts in stock to assemble 30 complete motors and an additional 45 without gearfeet. The remaining gearfeet are in the machining stage. They have 4 or 5 motors assembled but they're not going to assemble motors except to fill orders.
Racing outboards is not in the position to hand out free samples. I really can't speak for the company, because I'm not a representative of the company, but I try to find out as much as possible to relay any information those that are interested. I will say this, if you order one you'll probably get it within two weeks.

[hydroracer25]

Area?

Kerry, I dont think there will ever be a Sidewinder motor in our area, that we will be able to touch or test. We will have to rely on reports from others to garner our opinons. Don Hagerl has been the guru for Hot Rods, in our area for years. He also helped my son with legal motor blueprinting, advice,ect, from the start. We wouldn't still be racing if it wern't for people like Don or George Jenkins.

Steve,
We've missed you at the Michigan racers over the last few years. There is currently 1 Sidewinder in MI owned by Doug Wellings. He bought it at Grass Lake and will most likely have it as Big Rapids (assuming he attends). Both Dudely Smith (OH) and Gene Schertz (IL) Have been at Constantine and Augusta with their Sidewinders.

As someone else mentioned, there were about a half dozen and Grass Lake on display and for sale. When you say "in out area", I question if you mean within 30 miles of Top'O or MI in general. We've had marathon races at 2 or our MHRA races this year with very little participation from many racers up north with the exception of Mark Kurz and Jim Powell. The engines were there and we'd like to have more of you guys come down to race with us.
Mark

[reed28n]

Ash Asr

ASR, ASH, 25SSR & 20SSH all have engines being removed according to current rules passed at the last annual meeting. The Stock Outboard Chairman broke the tie to remove engines from the A Classes, meaning that the engines will now be removed from these classes.

ASR - to remove the Merc 15

ASH - to remove the Merc 15

These motors currently have two classes that they dominate and a place to race them. The "A" classes will have the OMC and the Sidewinder A to compete with.

20SSH - the restricted 102 was removed only. By a vote of the elected commission. The 102 is still legal, very popular and very competitive in the CSH class. Allowing the y-80 to remain, the restricted 302 will remain(is currently in production) and the sidewinder will be probationary(is currently in production). The y-80 needs help in this class and not by a 2nd out of production motor as an option (the y-102). We wanted the 102 that is rarely used in the 20SSH class to not be an option for someone new to the sport. With three motors you can buy used y-80's, dealer owned 302's or 20 CID sidewinders in a range of prices.

25SSR - from the minutes of the meeting.....

80. C classes-Lower CSR weight. Will be balloted item.

81. 25 Classes-Proposal to remove the restricted Yamato Motors from the 25SSR class. Motion, seconded. Questions and Discussion. Amended to remove restricted motors as of November 1, 2010 and seconded. Motion passed.

If the CSR weight had passed and been lowered to 460 you would have had a great number of 25 drivers return to the CSR class with a safe weight.

The yamato as you know was implemented to help boost the use of the 25XS merc and from Dana Holt's stats you will see that the Yamato is raced by a great number of CSR racers including myself at Championship races. The resurgence of the mercury didn't happen, it is a natural place for the 20 hot rod and 20 sidewinder.

The recurring theme was to have currently available motors in production for each stock class. That is the path we are on, have these "in production" motors competitive and a sure success option for a new driver to compete out of the box. Not have to find the correct combination of parts, not to have a machine shop in his/her basement, but to buy motors ready to race and assembled, that is the hope and goal.

Super motors - will fade by a natural attrition. The problem we have now for a new driver that is the A class size driver or the 20SSSH size driver is - where does this driver buy their power plant. From the used inventory available. Unless they buy from a retiring racer there is a very good chance that the motor has been tested against equipment in the sellers stable and the new driver will get the slower equipment. It is racing....and people don't sell their #1 motor or their #1 prop. Sometimes when they retire they hold onto their best equipment.

With new equipment available you increase the chance that the new driver is as fast....with the new technology parts are made more consistantly, tolerances are tighter the difference in performance will be left upto the drivers ability, testing and set up. As close to stock as we can get.

The was to have good readily available options to build good fields of competitive motors. With new motors available the number of patched together motors with limited parts availability will naturally decline.

All that being said this only impacts the races that are counted for National Highpoints. You can combine and race AXSH and ASH, 25SSR and CSR at you local events to go out an race to win your tee shirt. These National classes are scheduled to change. Promote your class locally to get the boats you need if you are in a points chase travel to a race that you know your class will have 4 boats. Let's have the same class make up across the regions so Region 10 races for highpoints against the same competition Region 1 races against to get into the Hall of Champions.

Scott Reed

[Matt Dagostino]

Good To Know...................

20SSH - the restricted 102 was removed only. By a vote of the elected commission. Allowing the y-80 to remain, the restricted 302 will remain(is currently in production) and the sidewinder will be probationary(is currently in production). The y-80 needs help in this class and not by a 2nd out of production motor as an option (the y-102). With three motors you can buy used y-80's, dealer owned 302's or 20 CID sidewinders in a range of prices.

Scott Reed

GOOD TO KNOW...............i think many folks thought the 302 was not going to be legal in the 20ssh class after the 2010 season! To me it should be the motor of choice in the 20ssh class. It is currently available, reliable and reasonably priced. I will continue to lobby to have the height lowered in the class to 3/4" below the bottom as the CSH currently is at. This will help "level the playing field" as some of your commissioners like to say. It will make the 302 more competitive in the 20ssh class Nationwide and hopefully obsolete the killer 20sssh props Dana has in his toy chest!!

I think also the lower height will save many Yamato 80's and 302's from overheating at the current 1/2" height.

Not a sermon, just a thought!

Enjoy