Sidewinders

[Kev43V]

When I asked this question about the Sidewinders the question was were were they at the Marathon Nationals. I had presumed that there would be a couple to at least look at and when none were to be found, I asked a couple Hod Rod guys and it was evident that there were bad feeling with the much touted replacement to their engines but I didn't realize it would start this discussion. So were were they, are they not fit to run the 44 miles, are there not any for display or is this area just not important enough to bring them too? Thease were some of the reasons I was told.

One would have been there if the owner had any vacation time left.
but after the National meeting, winter nats, summer nats and a day here and a day there. He has no days left to take off untill the new year.

[steve smith 150m]

You are right. Were may be a cult, but we wont drink the kool aid. Do you?

[Affholter66]

New Motor for...

maybe I'm being abit to simple but why not just ADD the Sidewinder, why do we have to DUMP motors from classes...dosen't make sense to me. But then again I'm a non-compeitive 25 runabout driver that only has a 102 and can't afford 4500 for a new motor, I just want to RACE (even if I do finnish last)
Roger Affholter

[reed28n]

old vs. new

Every engine that has been brought into an existing class in the Stock Category in the last 30 years has been slower than the old engine it was introduced to replace. With only a couple of exceptions, the new engine eventually outpaced the old. In case you don't know it, I have always supported new equipment and continue to do so. Our sport will never survive if new equipment is not readily available.

The Sidewinder is the wave of the future. While I might have some disagreements with how its introduction has taken place, I definitely believe that these engines must be the engines of choice in a few years. The AXS classes are a good model. The Merc was eventually brought in, later became competitive and then, due to availability and competitiveness, it became the engine of choice. The same thing happened in the C classes although the transition took way too long. This transition is exactly what should happen in the Sidewinder classes.

The only departure I have with the current SORC administration is that I would NEVER eliminate old engines. First, there is no reason to do so when old, faster engines can simply be slowed down. That is what happened in AXS and C Stock and it is what should eventually happen in every Stock class that has a new engine. Second, availability of inexpensive engines is very important to keeping a class alive. Right now, there are very few Sidewinders and they all cost $4500.00. In a few years, there will be used engines and the entry-level price will drop. In the mean time, the old equipment needs to be available and inexpensive. Eventually, it must go. But not by elimination by rules. Rather, the old equipment should be eliminated by choice.

Eddie.

I have heard a great deal of discussion about the cost of a motor and the fear that new motors will obsolete existing engines in a class. I feel that to attract new racers we have to give someone, that has no previous experience in Stock Outboard, a chance to compete right away. Mark Weber talks about removing barriers of entry in boat racing. I believe it is equally important to sustain what gains you make. We want new drivers to make good equipment choices by having the motors available to a class be competitive.

If we keep one motor running in multiple classes, competitive used equipment is less likely to be available. Economy for some new drivers will be to buy old equipment (old models, antiques, some say junkyard motors) that will never compete. What sustained our membership when motors were out of production was the fact the drivers graduated to different classes making competitive used motors available in the market in other classes.

For the first time in our history we have a motor manufacturer targeting a speed range so we do not have to legislate a handicap or parity with the sidewinder.

It is a delicate balance maintaining the existing membership and attracting new members. But asking a prospective racer to understand where to get a basket full of parts and ask them to ship them all over our continent to get it assembled is not the answer.

[reed28n]

There is a place to Race

maybe I'm being abit to simple but why not just ADD the Sidewinder, why do we have to DUMP motors from classes...dosen't make sense to me. But then again I'm a non-compeitive 25 runabout driver that only has a 102 and can't afford 4500 for a new motor, I just want to RACE (even if I do finnish last)
Roger Affholter

The 102 was not dumped. It is very popular and very legal in the "C" class. the intent when the commission allowed the restricted Yamato motors in the 25SSR class was to spur the resurgence of the 25xs motors not to make the 25SSR class CSR(2).

I believe adding the 102 to the 25SSR class was a mistake. Ed did not want to add the 102 to the 25SSR class because he felt it "bastardized" the class.
and is now willing bastradize every class.

I lobbied to add it because I believed it would boost registrations at our local races. It did not and in hind sight it was a mistake because new drivers might buy a 102 that has been out of production for a number of years and parts are getting hard to find for a class that is dominated by the 25XS merc.

Yes, a side winder is $4500 but a 25XS can obtained for around $1800-2500 which is a motor that wins. You are not forced to buy a sidewinder. 102 will sell for $1200 to $1800 right here on this site.

[Affholter66]

So your saying parts for a 25merc are accessable? I had one 9yrs ago and parts esp. lower units were difficult to find then. Not sure but I think I paid about $700 for a gear foot in '93...I know I can run CSR..not the point, right now I can run 2 classes w/1 Boat & 1 Motor...6 roundy rounds a day...my point is why eliminate the motor by rule?..as others have posted let it run its course by attrition (??sp)..by then a used sidewinder will be $2500 and there will be parts galore. For the record I wasn't a fan of "the big boats" coming into the class yrs ago, but I got over it quickly, when there were more boats ON THE WATER...

[Blackhawkguy]

let's talk about the cult

so lets look at the Marathon Nationals by the numbers

At the Marathon Nationals they have been averaging 70-75 entries per year-these are one boat, one driver entries

At the short coarse nationals you have been averaging 300-400 entries. How many entries are people running multiple classes

I think a pretty good percentage of Stock Outboard is represented at the Marathon Nationals

How often are the average numbers at the short coarse nationals afected by combined nationals with the mods, or wether they are on the west coast verses the east coast, or midwest.

I think when any motor manufacturer looks at Stock Outboard, they had better look at the Marathon Nationals seriously

It is literaly the most comprehensive test of their equipment they could ever ask for,

1. Does it start in the water
2. Will it run two hours strait @WOT
3. Will all the parts hold up to a severe beating (thrust brackets, swivel brackets yadda, yadda, yadda)

So just answer the man's question

If you want to sell motors in Stock Outboard

show up to the Nationals-or send a representative with some product

Short coarse, Winter, Marathon

Period!

Kerry

[Affholter66]

The 102 was not dumped. It is very popular and very legal in the "C" class. the intent when the commission allowed the restricted Yamato motors in the 25SSR class was to spur the resurgence of the 25xs motors not to make the 25SSR class CSR(2).

I believe adding the 102 to the 25SSR class was a mistake. Ed did not want to add the 102 to the 25SSR class because he felt it "bastardized" the class.
and is now willing bastradize every class.

I lobbied to add it because I believed it would boost registrations at our local races. It did not and in hind sight it was a mistake because new drivers might buy a 102 that has been out of production for a number of years and parts are getting hard to find for a class that is dominated by the 25XS merc.

Yes, a side winder is $4500 but a 25XS can obtained for around $1800-2500 which is a motor that wins. You are not forced to buy a sidewinder. 102 will sell for $1200 to $1800 right here on this site.

Another ??? whats wrong with having CSR(2) as you say..more seat time...less cost to start up..not seeing a problem here

[B Walker]

so lets look at the Marathon Nationals by the numbers

At the Marathon Nationals they have been averaging 70-75 entries per year-these are one boat, one driver entries

At the short coarse nationals you have been averaging 300-400 entries. How many entries are people running multiple classes

I think a pretty good percentage of Stock Outboard is represented at the Marathon Nationals

How often are the average numbers at the short coarse nationals afected by combined nationals with the mods, or wether they are on the west coast verses the east coast, or midwest.

I think when any motor manufacturer looks at Stock Outboard, they had better look at the Marathon Nationals seriously

It is literaly the most comprehensive test of their equipment they could ever ask for,

1. Does it start in the water
2. Will it run two hours strait @WOT
3. Will all the parts hold up to a severe beating (thrust brackets, swivel brackets yadda, yadda, yadda)

So just answer the man's question

If you want to sell motors in Stock Outboard

show up to the Nationals-or send a representative with some product

Short coarse, Winter, Marathon

Period!

Kerry

This thinking is an example of when we had "big motor manufacturer" backing. We dont have that anymore. What has Mercury done for us in the last 20 years? Yamato does not even know we exist. Sidewinder is a shoestring operation. Some might even say they are doing it for the love cuz from where I sit it is really hard to see the money.

If you want to promote Marathon Racing, the best idea I have heard is to give Marathon its own Division. But to ask a manufacturer to "prove" their motors in a marathon is not gonna happen.

The more I think about it, Marathon needs to become their own Division. How does that happen? What is the process?

BW

[reed28n]

Csr 2

Another ??? whats wrong with having CSR(2) as you say..more seat time...less cost to start up..not seeing a problem here

For most it is not more seat time. In our Division many chose one class or the other. Which has diluted the fields of boats. Now we have two classes of 6 rather than one class with 12 entries. It makes for longer days at combined category events. What is wrong with running fewer classes with more heats or more races when time is available in a smaller number of classes? What is wrong with having a simple class structure that produces a marketable program that spectators and more importantly, potential new racers can understand and follow and find currently manufactered equipment that will compete available?

I have never discouraged putting any boat on the water. You can run special events like the Classic B races at Crystal Lake, NY. You can run and combine classes at any local event as long as safety rules are followed.

Stock Outboard has 400-500 racing participants annually. Should we consider the other 330 million people in our country as potential racers?

[Affholter66]

Reed..I see your point....I am being selfish in these posts, speaking FOR MYSELF. I want to be on the water not in the pits. Not many guys at Local races are there 'just to race", but to get points as well. As far as spectators go...NASCAR has 6 major participants, Ford-GM-Chrysler-Toyota...people can keep things straight....we can always combine classes to save time.the more on the water together the better..spectators LOVE marathons for that very reason.. Ive been around SO racing for 45yrs..I can tell ya 329,999,000 people in this country don't want to race... they want to watch....

[D Shafer]

hmm csr 2 or 2-3 heats of elims still probaly take less time to run csr2.as for sidewinder great job but let the old motors phase themselves out why push them out .this is a family sport which means most people have to buy more than one 4500.00 dollar motor it may be 2 or 3 for a hobbie to win a trophy or a gallon of oil.as for bigger boats in 25ssr these guys brought the class back it would be easier to not bring sidewinder in to 25 and let the 302 phase the rest out.

[Big Don]

Mr Reed....my vote is less classes...three heats. One of the complaints we here all the time is I want to race more than 2 heats 6 laps. If we expect someone to invest 10,000.00 in a new SO rig we had better give them something back. Otherwise we risk them going to a personal water craft, dirt bike, go Kart, a 45Rig...

[Tim Weber]

The Sidewinder is a great concept. I have only seen 5. I have never seen a 20 cube motor.

Are the 20 cube's being produced, have any been produced? It seems to me an awful lot of discussion about a lot of what ifs.

Let's face it, if 50 motors were available today, I don't think the racing community is going to empty the warehouse tommorow. The motors will not move until is is apparent that they are available and better than the current motor. Who wants to buy a new motor and get beat by the old.

I think it would be nice to have a couple of traveling 20's at races so guys to see it and run it.

Tim

[Andrew 4CE]

Can some list the components required to convert this motor or list the similar components to go from A to 15 to 20?

Is it designed to do this? I remember the old 15 and 20 hot rods... I think you just changed the block and pistons or something and you had a 20?

Edit adds:
Are the A - 15 - 20 the same price, $4500?

What is the order time for an A?

Or who should I email my questions to?