Participation sport or an event?

[B Walker]

This topic got real hot on the old rec.boats forum....hope people have cooled off enough by now to have a reasonable and objective discussion.

Branding, Marketing, Strategy, and Publicity should be at the top of the list as far as I am concerned. How many more years will this sport be able to support it self without the help of sponsors and spectators? How does the sport plan to support it self in the coming years

Every time I see the word "show" associated with powerboat racing of any type from Stock Outboard to Unlimited and Offshore I have a little difficulty. It is my opinion that at the Stock and Modified level we race for ourselves and that it is a participation sport, not a form of entertainment that can be marketed.

I have attended Seafair in Seattle a couple of times, been to the Gold Cup in Detroit more than once, officiated at a few Offshore events in Key West, Tampa, Miami, and some others, been to De Pue a couple of times and many Stock and Modified Outboard National Championships.

Arguably right now Offshore is doing the closest thing to a marketable event in all of the powerboat racing fraternity. I have spoken with a few of Offshores Marketing Directors and been told that very few of their events make any money and the ones that do, make up for the ones they lose money at. That is, they simply shoot to break even over a year of racing. Sound familiar?

The concept that participants might make enough money to cover their expenses and make a living racing (professional racing) were not described as realistic at this time. In fact, some found that concept laughable.

All of my discussions with professionals that make a living in putting on powerboat racing events sounded very similar to my experiences at the non-profit club level. There budgets were just larger, but so were there expenses. Everything was the same, just on a larger scale.

In my opinion at every level, we race for ourselves and not to put on a "show". In my opinion, powerboat racing is a participation sport, not a show that can be packaged and marketed like NASCAR. I often see the concept of "putting on a show" as justification for many ideas and rules. Some of these ideas are not very racer friendly. The worst of them make people quit the sport.

I am concerned that so many of these ideas are at the expense of participation in this great sport. This relates directly to our membership growth. In Stock Outboard, our records show that we have a problem keeping members, not in finding members.

I believe our leadership needs to make decisions that make it easier and better for the participants, not decisions that make us have a better "show" for our non-existant fanbase.

So in summary, do we race for ourselves or to put on an event that can be marketed? Which model do we want to work towards? What are some goals that need to be identified to achieve movement toward one model or another.

Again, in my opinion, untill these (and a few other) big picture items have consensus it will be very difficult for Stock and Mod Outboard to make the significant changes needed to stop the membership decline of the last 30+ years.

Thoughtfully discuss, please,
Brad Walker

[sam]

Well put, Brad. I am on the same page with you, but we do need to find new members ... no one lives forever.

[HRTV]

Hey Brad,

Long time no see or chat, I'm not sure what answer you are looking for or how I should respond but lets give it a try. Clearly to date the sport is one that does not depend on the fan base but my question was how much longer can that business model succeed in today's economy when 2009 and beyond are without a doubt going to be some of the toughest times this country has ever seen.

I will throw it back to you and ask is it possible to continue on the current track using the same model ie no fan base etc. or we will be forced to seek out backing to continue into the future?

Your move

[B Walker]

part 2

Hey Brad,

Long time no see or chat, I'm not sure what answer you are looking for or how I should respond but lets give it a try. Clearly to date the sport is one that does not depend on the fan base but my question was how much longer can that business model succeed in today's economy when 2009 and beyond are without a doubt going to be some of the toughest times this country has ever seen.

I will throw it back to you and ask is it possible to continue on the current track using the same model ie no fan base etc. or we will be forced to seek out backing to continue into the future?

Your move

Lo Dan and Sam and ty for participating in the discussion

Obviously, were doing something wrong in Stock and Mod. We have had slow decline for more than 30 years but we have made no significant changes, so why would we expect different results?

The first step in fixing it is to identify what is broken. Then to make some goals, then make some decisions to achieve those goals. I come from a "build it and they will come" philosophy so heres a few ideas:

1) Massive class combinations with only a few "core" classes consisting of only one motor. Goal is to reduce the raceday from 36-48 heats of racing to 24 or so (maximum). Ideally a 4 hour "show" if the membership decides they want that model.

2) Complete restructuring of the regional system of governing/leadership. Its not needed and a massive beauracracy that is redundant in alot of cases. Mabye just an East, West, and Midwest?

3) Encourage use of electronic scoring systems with web real time reporting.

4) Removal of the letter designator of region. (The letter is confusing to potential spectators/sponsors) also, its not needed in an electronic scoring model.

5) Stock Outboard classes should only include engines in current production or been produced in the last 10 years with the goal of current production only. Ideally once out of production, the class is designated as Mod.

6) Merger of the Stock Outboard and Modified Outboard divisions.

7) A parity committee for each class to achieve balance between dissimilar engines in the same class.

8) A professional (paid) Marketing and Promotions Director for Stock and Mod. responsible for promoting the sport, and growing the membership.

I have more, that was just off the top of my head and I gotta go make dinner.

BW

[HRTV]

Brad,

Great post and I agree 100% with every point you have just made but the biggest problem I think we face is the lack of funding to free our self's from the current structure and move forward into the future. I guess my point is if you look at every one of the major category's that were facing the same problem there first step was to break away from the APBA and find private backing. I think Pat Wright said it best in a post a few weeks back when he said we have no money or backing to do any of these things and until someone is willing to pay for it nothing will change.

Many of you might think this is a bit drastic but we need someone like Red Bull Racing division to come in and take over literately buy us out of APBA and start new. We then become the "Red Bull Power Boat Series" like it or not we no longer need the APBA if Mod and Pro want to stay under APBA thats fine but the Stock Outboard ranks should put a for sale sign on the door and start looking for buyers.

Keep in mind a series like Red Bull will never take our current massive class structure but break it down to A - B - C - D and we might have chance its a quick four hour program and the day is over! most folks lead very busy schedules theses days and can longer afford to spend 3 days at the lake anymore, its a fact of life.

Please keep in mind this is just my opinion based on my current life style which is based on fast paced city life. Not all of us live in rural settings where you have time to sit on the front porch and waive and eat ice cream after church on Sunday

[B Walker]

another thought....

APBA lost their "not for profit" status in the court case.

However, APBA hase not done a thing to move toward a "for profit" business model. No national sponsorships, very little professional marketing, very little promotion. Its been a long, slow, comfortable descent into mediocrity. The product (Stock and Modified Outboard powerboat racing) will continue to decline until the customers (members) either work toward change or decide to leave.

Even today in these times of economic difficulty there are still alot of recreational dollars being spent. Yes, theres more options out there then there were 30 years ago at APBA's peak membership. But there is 14,000+ members in Jet ski racing organisations and about the same number in Karting.

Both of those sports are significantly more expensive than Stock and Modified Outboard racing but both have had growth while Stock and Mod have declined.....why?

More thoughts after dessert and a movie.....

BW

[HRTV]

Brad,

Great post and I agree 100% with every point you have just made but the biggest problem I think we face is the lack of funding to free our self's from the current structure and move forward into the future. I guess my point is if you look at every one of the major category's that were facing the same problem there first step was to break away from the APBA and find private backing. I think Pat Wright said it best in a post a few weeks back when he said we have no money or backing to do any of these things and until someone is willing to pay for it nothing will change.

Many of you might think this is a bit drastic but we need someone like Red Bull Racing division to come in and take over literately buy us out of APBA and start new. We then become the "Red Bull Power Boat Series" like it or not we no longer need the APBA if Mod and Pro want to stay under APBA thats fine but the Stock Outboard ranks should put sale sign on the door and start looking for buyers.

Keep in mind a series like Red Bull will never take our current massive class structure but break it down to A - B - C - D and we might have chance its a quick four hour program and the day is over! most folks lead very busy schedules theses days and can longer afford to spend 3 days at the lake anymore, its a fact of life.

Please keep in mind this is just my opinion based on my current life style which is based on fast paced city life. Not all of us live in rural settings where you have time to sit on the front porch and waive and eat ice cream after church on Sunday

For example the Mountain Dew - Dew Tours covers FREESKI SNOWBOARD SKATE BMX & FMX

http://www.allisports.com/

Red Bull covers:

Motor Cross - Karting - F1 - Air Race - Red Bull MotoGP Rookies Cup - and the list goes on and on!

http://www.youtube.com/redbullusa

Its time to get of the back woods and take at least three or four of our top classes to the board room table and show these guys what we have to offer. We are the last sport in world still racing for our self's! yes the economy is tight but money is out there if we just present our product in the right way.

For the love of God! if Red Bull backs the Red Bull Donkey Cross they will give money to anyone!!!!!!!!!

[Gunjumper]

Good points Brad...

I agree with the class consolidation... shorter days, more competetive racing, less sets, less patrol boat bodies, no more boring three boat heats, more time for after hour consumption. lol. This would hurt entry fee/club income though wouldn't it? Good points about the keeping members, not luring in spectator's being the problem. The Runne's, Jennings, Allen's, and myself were all very impressed with the beach starts at the Worlds in Florida. We brought home our new found knowledge and presented the idea at our region meetings. For the '09 season, Regions 1 and 3 will be trying beach starts, not full time, just giving it a shot for a class or two per day, the details will be worked out as the season gets closer. Two big benefits of starting this way are more crew involvement and a better chance of pulling 'non-racing' friends to the races every weekend (possible new member prospects). I for one would be more likely to bring a buddy from home to rope me over (since Jerry is getting old!), and thats another body in the pits seeing our sport and possibly becoming involved... better action, more people in the pits/water, and just plain old 'trying something new'. If we keep doing everything exactly how we've done it for years, then how can we expect a different result? G. Lyons

[racnbns]

Participation Sport

For example the Mountain Dew - Dew Tours covers FREESKI SNOWBOARD SKATE BMX & FMX

http://www.allisports.com/

Red Bull covers:

Motor Cross - Karting - F1 - Air Race - Red Bull MotoGP Rookies Cup - and the list goes on and on!

http://www.youtube.com/redbullusa

Its time to get of the back woods and take at least three or four of our top classes to the board room table and show these guys what we have to offer. We are the last sport in world still racing for our self's! yes the economy is tight but money is out there if we just present our product in the right way.

For the love of God! if Red Bull backs the Red Bull Donkey Cross they will give money to anyone!!!!!!!!!

I have been participating in this sport for quite a few years [racing and lately as a commisioner] and really enjoy it. It's a great HOBBY. To expect any thing more from boat racing [ stock mod pro] I believe is wishful thinking.

Participant Sport--

We the participants[as a commision] make the rules. Wow! Racers make their own rules, could be prejudicial.

We----------------do the set up, tear down, turn boat duty and any other necessary chores.

We---------------pay the bills with entry fees and sometimes gate fees etc.

It's agreat HOBBY, achance to meet alot of great people and play with our boats for a few days.

Promote the Sport--

There aren't too many people outside the boat racing family that would even know what a hydro or runabout was if you showed them a picture.

What might help promotion would be more races like De Pue, Constantine, Lock Haven [you guys and gals know more of them] where its the same time every year. They've been going on for years and the people plan on it. You develop a fan base.

It's a great HOBBY. I plan on racing till my race no. V-81=my age81,

See ya in the first turn,

Bruce

P.S. Did I mention it's a great HOBBY!

[sam]

Dan, a sponsored "Stock Outboard" racing circuit is only going to include the classes the sponsor sees as salable to the public ... more drastic than the Title Series ... possibly only 2 classes ... that is why you can't sell it to the membership. There is no way you can get everyone to sell off their equipment in the other classes and buy into just 2 or 3 classes


If a sponsor came around and pumped up a few classes that would be great, but it will never replace the participation hobby racing scene


The truth is that Stock has been declining for 50 years, not 30 or 40

[bill van steenwyk]

Another view

As someone who has watched and participated in the sport from the mid fifties, here are some things to consider. By the way, all suggestions/points made to this one are good, and have merit, but the one thing I have not heard mentioned is the possible causes of the problems, being spoken about.
Before you identify the problems, AND ARE WILLING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THEM, solutions are hard to come by, if not impossible.

Some folks in the past have used NASCAR as a model of what boat racing should be. Boat Racing (IMHO) will NEVER attract the major sponsors that NASCAR or even the lesser automotive based motor sports have, for several reasons:

1. There is no "win on Sunday, buy on Monday" in our sport. What about OPC you say? The factories have proved time and time again since the heyday of the "factory wars" in ON and OZ in the 70's that they have no desire to compete against each other. See the "one brand, one motor" classes that abound in OPC and a large amount of the Stock category feels the same way if the posts on HR from stock category members for the last several years are any indication. That leaves the factorys out as an all but very limited source of support for racing, for except for OPC they really don't manufacture motors suitable for the stock category anymore, so they have no reason to help support it, other than as they are doing now, with some "sticker on boat" compensation at the end of the season, and a truck selling parts at the races. in only the OPC category. I certainly don't see Mercury or Bombardier knocking down the door to manufacture motors for our use anymore, and I can't blame them with the small amount they would sell. The days of "one man rule" such as took place in Kiekhaufers day are long gone, as all corporations have boards of directors and stockholders they have to answer to today. There is NO reason that makes sense for the factorys to support boat racing anymore except in the limited way they are now doing, and with the economy in the tubes the way it is now, you can probably kiss that goodbye. (see the InBev buyout of Budweiser and Seebold losing his sponsor of 27 years.)

2. Even if it did make some sort of financial sense for manufacturers of either motors, or other type equipment to funnel dollars into the sport, would you put money into an enterprise where "the inmates run the asylum". We do have now in APBA, a "democratic" organization where the members elect commissioners to the respective racing commissions, and then they enact the rules we participate under, with Safety Committee and BOD approval of those rules. Does NASCAR or any other successful racing series operate in that fashion? You got to be kidding yourself if you think they do. That is why NASCAR, Indy Car, World of Outlaws, Midget Series, even most of your local racing promoters operate under the "CZAR" mandate. If they are going to furnish you a safe, modern facility, with loads of spectators, and all the other amenities it takes to put on those type events, they would not even CONSIDER running their business model like APBA, AOF, NBRA and any other boat racing orginazition is run in the US today. They would be broke before they even started with no hope of ever coming out of the hole.

3. I could go on and on about things like this for hours and hours, but mostly it is a waste of time, because even if the Stock, Mod, and PRO categorys took these couple of things to heart, trying to find the money in this present economy is going to be an exercise in futility, in my opinion, for the next couple of years. If you believe the news media, (who I think bear a lot of the culpability for the way things are now with all the preaching of doom and gloom they have been doing for a year we will all be lucky to have roofs over our heads next summer.) I don't personally believe that, but if you think any incoming President is going to turn things around in a year, I have another bridge to sell you.

Until things change DRASTICALLY with the way we as participants look at our sport, and with what we want it to be, it will never be that way without a complete 180 change of direction insofar as how the governing structure is set up. Now, the way it is, because there is not the big money, or very professional way other motor sports are run, nobody is willing to give up having his say on the way his class is run. Until that happens, this is the way it is going to be. Four and five boat classes, 36 to 48 heats on a weekend, and all the other things everyone gripes about. Doesn't mean anybody is the bad guy, just means that is the way it is until a BIG change is made in the way the sport is run. Believe me, as a business person, nobody is going to go big time with Stock, Mod, or PRO Outboard the way the categories function at this time. US Title Series comes closest to the correct race model, and they do it WITHOUT major sponsors manufacturers involved.

I have lots more, if anybody is interested, but I think it is a waste of time. Nobody has listened to these suggestions for the last 50 years, from me or lots of other folks much smarter than me, and as long as the sanctioning organizations are formulated the way they are (which seems to be the way the membership wants) nothing is going to change.

Everybody seems to want change these days, but no one likes it when they find out they might have to let go of some of THEIR favorite toys to achieve it.

[Skoontz]

Some great points here, and to ad...Along with the existence of comes the slow death taking place since the 60's.

What caused the death were many things, the three biggest nails to the coffin were the introduction of the handle bar steered squirt gun powered canoe, then the out sourcing of race goodies such as what OMC/Second Effort did. At this point, rather than go one place to get what was needed for an unhooked up newbie, they had to seek another source of go fast goodies. In the day, Mr. K and the OMC teams sold what you needed over the counter. As soon as outsourcing race parts happened, stock racing took a real decline in participants.

Last, the unwillingness and reluctance of a great many to adapt and evolve. For example among other things, the controversy every time someone suggests using cheap, shiftable stock gear cases for entry level classes.


The current climate has kept racing families in racing, but done little to attract those who never set foot in a boat race boats. A great program is Region 11's Norcal rides and should be looked at as a model to attract more people, even if all they do is rent the race boat and race.....

The fix, in my often warped but always get the job done opinion, is the following....

Stock engines out of the box, classed by displacement. Cubic inch displacement...... But let the years you can run go back 20. Put the slower heavier motors with bump sticks on the same water as the 2 strokes if someone wants to run one.

As said before, add glass hulls from Revolution and others to a dealers floor plan and find someone who would finance them.

Find partners who benefit by selling accessories with marine products, boats, life jackets etc, and ask them to take a risk. Sunblock and goober von schlopen would be good examples.....Push boat racing as exciting, fun, etc etc etc, and add the family values it brought to our family. Partner with schools using racing as a tool to get grades up...Case in point....

KT, her first race, April 07, had a .08 grade average....To date, she has a 3.2 and climbing... Unorthodox yes, but the proof is in the pudding....

My two cents. And a big thanks to Dan, for allowing a forum to be used as a forum should be by not shutting down those who may have objective opinions his moderators may not necessarily agree with.

[HRTV]

Dan, a sponsored "Stock Outboard" racing circuit is only going to include the classes the sponsor sees as salable to the public ... more drastic than the Title Series ... possibly only 2 classes ... that is why you can't sell it to the membership. There is no way you can get everyone to sell off their equipment in the other classes and buy into just 2 or 3 classes


If a sponsor came around and pumped up a few classes that would be great, but it will never replace the participation hobby racing scene


The truth is that Stock has been declining for 50 years, not 30 or 40

Very true Sam I agree that only a select few classes might be looked at, there is no way that anyone in there right mind would open the doors to our massive current class structure but the reality of it is that some of the current 3 and 4 boat fields is not racing anyway its just a fun day with a few of your buddies but hey if that's what folks want then so be it.

[Brian10s]

Excellent Thread

Good thoughts - good ideas.

Here are a couple of observations:

Red Bull series - to cherry pick our best classes and create a series. Great Idea and it has been done a couple of times. In the Stock category, you had the Merc Challenge. Merc put up some money, arguably the best drivers in the country raced in the series in DSH & 25SSH & 25SSR and the shows were incredible. Most of the series were run in concert with some "local" classes to fill out the day. Was a great show. Downside, when Mercury pulled out, the series dried up and everybody went back to local racing. In Pro - when the Title Series got big, most of the local Pro racers went off to run the series. Pro's - USTS continues today and is the face of the Pro category. Downside - local pro racing (mixed in with out categories) is practically dead. Some out on the west coast, some here and there, a couple classes put on the schedule at places like Lock Haven, etc. But no real local participation like in the 80's.

Sometimes, I think we suffer from "Outfrontitus". Most of our thought process, rules changes and effort are mostly geared towards protecting the top 3. In most occasions, we need to focus not on the top 3 as they will almost always be there but on the last 4. How many of the top guns fade away every year? How many of those last place finishers fade away? In every class, protect and keep the last 4 boats active and excited, they will stay. If they stay, we grow, instead of working to replacing them every year.

That is the money question - how do we keep the last place drivers excited and racing? How do we keep the illusion that with a little effort and luck, they can compete with the Palmquist's, Clark's, Holt's, etc of their classes? Yes, those on top are there for a reason, they have put the sweat, years and tears into their rigs to get out front, no doubt about it. But at the local level, what can we do so that newbie holds that dream of knocking off the big dog? Shorter courses? Modified lemans starts? Bracket starts where the fastest have a disadvantage? Classes designed for new drivers where more experienced drivers just go out, not to race but to teach how to drive? A mentoring program? Driving schools like MHRA did at Grass lake?

Because most new drivers either buy speed before they can control it, drive over their heads and get hurt or hurt somebody else or just quit in frustration to do something else. Very few new drivers make it - to where their skills have improve as their speed increases. We treat our J drivers with the time to develope their skills over time - race for fun before glory. Our older "J" driver get thrown into the deepend of the pool and we hope they can swim.

[sam]

In the day, Mr. K and the OMC teams sold what you needed over the counter. As soon as outsourcing race parts happened, stock racing took a real decline in participants.

This was only true until about 1953 or 54. After that, the first thing you needed was a Michigan prop to go faster than the guys running KAMINC's. Merc only sold throttles and steering for a year or two early on ... after that and ever since it has been the grand scavenger hunt to collect all the magic parts. OMC never sold "everything you needed", in fact during the grand heyday of Stock, OMC sold no racing products at all. Participation and sales of racing equipment skyrocketed despite having to go here and there for everything needed. It was something other than scavenger hunting that caused the decline that started 50 years ago next year and has been extremely steady but fortunately slow ever since.

Merc came out with a catalog of racing goodies thru most of the 70's, but that didn't cause any increase in membership.