Participation sport or an event?

[B Walker]

very nice....

Wow, many good constructive posts, thanks to all of you for thoughtful and reasonable responses.

BW

[Kev43V]

Brad you stated
"2) Complete restructuring of the regional system of governing/leadership. Its not needed and a massive bureaucracy that is redundant in allot of cases. Maybe just an East, West, and Midwest?"

I could see your point if these where paid positions as in a normal business. yet in our cir***stance, is it really better to make the members go to 1 of 3 division meetings. Instead of traveling what is usually a lesser distance for region meetings. if they want to participate in the "goings on" of the organization?

[bill van steenwyk]

Brian's post / a good point brought up

Brian:

You make a very good and valid point about the "first 3" or however you put it. It always takes 8-10 boats at least to make a "GOOD" race. Nobody likes to see 3-4 boats contesting a 3-4 lap race, because unless a miracle happens, how they finish the first lap is going to be, in 98% of the cases, how they finish the race. It always takes the 4th thru 9-10th place finishers to make a GOOD race and have a reason for spectators to spend their time/money (if a gate charge exists) to watch a race. Nobody except the participants gives a hoot about those kind of races, so it comes back to the question several others have asked, are we racing for ourselves, or for the public. Look most places (races) and we are racing for ourselves. Who wants to watch something with 3-4 participants, that the finish is evident after a lap, same thing most of the day, all day, except for the participants and their families?

We had a similar situation arise in the PRO Category some years back, when capsule hyro's were mandated. I will not argue the safety aspect of the Capsule boats versus kneelers or lay-downs at the speeds the 500Hydros and above run. What I will say is the capsules were mandated, in large part due to some accidents and a death of a very well thought of driver in the PRO Category. I was at the PRO Commission meeting when the commissioners voted/mandated capsules in the category, and I have no problem with safety rules in any way (I have been hurt badly in the past in a racing boat), but when I asked the question of the Commission "Has anyone done any research about what effect this will have on the numbers in these classes", and is there anyway we could accomplish what is required safety wise without the onerous cost this is going to put on the drivers/owners, I was basically told to "Sit down, shut up" this is a done deal before we ever got here. That was in the early 90's I believe, and those three classes have NEVER recovered from that rule. Why?? Because you were telling the drivers who were participating in those three classes (500, 700, and 1100 Hydro, that the costs to run from 4th thru 12th had just increased by about 10-12 thousand dollars for a boat, and several thousand more for support equipment, (radios, new props, etc.) I think that is a perfect example of "overkill", as much could have been done with mandating running deep with the prop shaft, shorter courses, and other methods folks smarter than I could have thought up if given the chance. Granted, we have not had a death in those classes, I don't believe, since the capsules were mandated, but at what cost. They have just started to come back somewhat, primarily, or at least to some extent, because of the prize money one individual has taken on himself to offer the past few years at DePue and other selected races.

You make an excellent point in that it doesn't make much difference about finishing in the top three, if you have no one else to race with, because shortly nobody is going to care. It takes 7-8 other competitors for the first 3 to finish in those positions and put on a race worth watching.

And that brings up the final point, of this post anyway. Nobody is going to sell their best equipment to a "Newbie" unless they are getting out or changing classes, so how does that build the class involved and the sport?
Never has and never will, until there is a real incentative for a new person to get in the sport. I also think Skoontz made a very valid point also, about the Jet Ski proliferaton the last 20years. The ones available for sale today run as fast as off the showroom floor as a good B Hydro, or faster, and you can actually go buy a new one, and even finance it.

I am not trying to be negative, but as I said at the first of my previous post, until you get a consensus on the problems facing you, and a willingness of everyone involved to accept a little pain to solve them, Boat Racing, unfortunately is stuck where it is I am afraid. I think we really are "participants", at least till we change our ways, and I don't see that happening, human nature being what it is, and with ourselves running the show.

As POGO said, "I have seen the enemy, and he is us."

[bandit64061]

Never thought i'd see the day!!!

My two cents. And a big thanks to Dan, for allowing a forum to be used as a forum should be by not shutting down those who may have objective opinions his moderators may not necessarily agree with.

And contributors , good as it gets Skoontz , some are on the right track...
RichardKCMo

[G Stillwill]

Maybe you all need to look at what the J Division is doing and why the numbers are increasing every year. Alot of hard work by people in the right direction has made this happen. The Harm Project, the Inboard project APBA making avaible new motors conversion kits avalible to convert fishing motors to racing and all at a reasonable price. No longer has the new person have to buy someone used up junk race for a year and quit because they run a lap behind at every race. The playing field had leveled with the New Motors as they all run pretty close in speed as they are all built the same. Give a kid or anyone for that matter a chance to win every time the rope is pulled and they will stay with the sport. As far as drawing a crowd the places we race every year at the same time does draw a crowd and the racers get to know the people and has a fan base. Loch Haven is a prime example of this as are a few others. The closer we race to a town the more people show up as the noise draws them even if it isnt advertised there is a race that weekend. Every town has a Mayor and a phone number to his office and a town web site to post things that are happing in town.They are always trying to make points for re election and most would post that there is going to be a race on the weekend. What we do is nothing like any other motor sport going and is not going to be sponsered. Karts are sponsered by the factorys, Jets Skis are sponseded by the factories even more so do you think the half naked models running around are there for free, no wonder they draw a crowd. With the ecomney as bad as it is you are going to see alot of these sponsered series dry up for the time being.

[B Walker]

point expansion

Brad you stated
"2) Complete restructuring of the regional system of governing/leadership. Its not needed and a massive bureaucracy that is redundant in allot of cases. Maybe just an East, West, and Midwest?"

I could see your point if these where paid positions as in a normal business. yet in our cir***stance, is it really better to make the members go to 1 of 3 division meetings. Instead of traveling what is usually a lesser distance for region meetings. if they want to participate in the "goings on" of the organization?

OK, this is a point that needs to be expanded on a bit.

If we ran fewer classes in a day there would be plenty of time to have region meetings at the largest races after the days racing is done. Like at Divisionals.

This is how we used to do it when we had a lot less classes.

I believe if it was done this way you would actually have more participation.

Also, what is actually decided at Region meetings? Potential race dates and sites, voting of representation to National meetings, voting for regional representation, are the big things, then a few housekeeping odds and ends. I have attended region meetings that took 8-10 hours, but never been to one with more than 1 hour of actual content.

Which brings us to efficiency. Use of modern communications technology like conference calling (for those unable to attend in person), web based forums to develop an agenda before the meeting, and use of voice communication technologies like TeamSpeak (which has the capability of recording and remote voting) could make Region meetings considerably more efficient.

BW

[B Walker]

one more thing....

Why are we so hung up on speed?

My J runabout did 28MPH, it took years of work for me to get my ASR to 50MPH (no flaming please!) My 15SSR was mid 50's (best ride ever!) even further back in the day, the fastest Stock Outboard classes went high 60's. What are we doing now....90+? In my opinion, people watch close racing, at whatever speed. We should be making rule changes that promote parity, not maintain the status quo.

My point is that the competion and participation was higher then than now, but we were going slower. There seems to be a tremendous resistance to any rule changes that slow someone down. Why? In my opinion, make the changes required and wipe the record books. Start over. Maybye even have records expire after 1 year or mabye 3 years.

More records give us something to promote, and if there is parity, it wont be the same people over and over.

BW

[Jack Stotts]

How to Salvage Our Sport

What we need is a benevolent dictator. One who has the best interest of the sport at heart and, hopefully, scads of money.

[mr2boats]

Selling the show

Brad
I can honestly say i agree with you ab out the participation part however after going to about 100 Motorsports Marketing Seminars from Nascar to the National Miget Assoc.to even Boat Racing the deal is from race tracks it is on this basis. How to make the Spectator stay at a event long enough to cover expenses and turn a profit,it is all about profitablility the same with Nascars events even though the racers are the biggest part that is what the breakdown is.If you ever want to do something unique go to the promoters seminars this is what they preach it is not about the racers it is all about the show and yes it can get under your skin until you sit down with the Nascar officials and look at the bottom line.
Unfortunately in Stock Racing,Mod and Pro all are falling hard under the same rules just like go kart racing WKA has to put a show on as well.
The best role seems to be race hard give the participation your best and try and bring people into the sport. Promote it the best way you can and take lightly the Show wording.
I am sure alot of people will voice their opinion on it but if you go to a new site to get a race such as a town the first words are what kind of revenue will this bring to town. In other words we have to give them a Show for the local folks.
Have a good day Brad
Good Post
Tim Lee

[B Walker]

What we need is a benevolent dictator. One who has the best interest of the sport at heart and, hopefully, scads of money.

We have one, but Ron Selewach is a bit busy with other things right now.

Well, hes not a benevolent dictator, but his team has done more for Stock Outboard racing than anyone else I can think of in recent years. The really good news is that the best is yet to come.

Ron's most brilliant move is possibly resisting the temptation to get involved in APBA politics.

BW

[Tim Weber]

I don't see the light of day under current economic conditions. You always hear, "follow the money". Well, there is not much of it out there to follow. Today, I was asked by one of my major customers to find an across the board price reduction. In other words, eat some profit! It just stinks.

Well, I hear we need to put on a show. We used to years ago. Now we can't race unless there is no wind, no boat traffic, no noise etc. We have limited ourselves to a few venues that will allow us to race or that are raceable.

I only made it to 5 or 6 races this year. Of them 1/2 of them had wind delays, or a day of racing canceled because of weather. I came up in an era when you ran no matter. If it rained, snowed, blew we ran because there was a real partnership with the sponser. In region 7 we used to run at Menasha, Kaukauna, Winneconne, Neosho, Milwaukee Lakefront, Rhinelander,Freemont, New London, Orihula, Merrill, Waukesha, Depere, Fondulac and I am leaving out some. The one biggest factor is that these are rough water races. I couldn't run my current boat as these places safely.
In many ways, when we ran old sids, speedliners, etc. what we would call a tank today, the RACING was better. The fastest didn't always win, the best racer did. So much of racing today is get a long run at the start and drag race to the first turn and game over. We have turned our racing into the 12 man kilo with turns.

Many guys never saw Henry Menzies race. He was incredible. He won with some of the worst boats you can imagine. He and his dad built the boats, motors etc. He won with shear gritty driving. He was rarely the fastest guy on the water. Today, he would not be as succesfull because the fastest guy usually wins and the types of race courses that really tested your ability are no longer raced.

We have sissy fins on runabouts, we have to run the motor tucked on most hydros and on a lot of runabouts just to keep them driveable.

What I am getting at is, the product we promoted ain't the same as the model we have to work with today.

I see stock and mod having to adapt an aproach like somewhat like USTS which parts of I like and parts I don't. The question is, how do you make our product saleable without killing the grass roots racing we all love?

Tim

[BP125V]

and now some good news......

we DON'T have a corporate sponsor who has bailed on us leaving us out in the cold with no way of raising enough money to go racing next year.

Based on activity here in BSOA / MRC I'm optimistic about '09.

We have people building/getting new boats, we are working on a new race site, we have a J driver and an AXS driver who went for thier first boat rides at PP and the J driver is looking to get equipment (has lifejacket and kevlar already) and the AXS driver is working with the Fairchilds on her ride. MRC is putting together 2 CSH rigs for demo rides, BSOA has a new Hemp that was built just for a new racer. Dennis Shaw is coming back to racing. Gas prices are low (for now), the Stock Promotional committee has just released the Whitney Point DVD and efforts are underway to get it on cable. etc etc

Getting people involved at the club level is what makes this sport tick. Get involved and help out.

PS Scott Reed posted the list of commissioners for a reason. Just because you post an idea here on HR.net does not mean that it will get brought up as an agenda item at the annual meeting. You have to submit your proposal. If you think that your proposal has merit, get with others in your club and with your commissioners and work out the details BEFORE the meeting. It will have a much better chance of getting passed that way.

Bill

[thepiranhabros]

Well said

I've been at home sick following this post for the past couple days now, and haven't been able to put my thoughts into coherent words up until this point. Tim and Bill (prior two posts) have pretty much summed it all up as such; there is little (if any) money out there for sponsorships, and we are a club-based structure that really runs well when people get involved.

Rather than belaboring points and bellyaching about what we don't have (e.g., rich sponsors and bathtubs full of money), lets focus on what we do have and do it right. The LOCAL CLUBS are the golden keys that unlock the possibilities, and the way they really hum is when everybody gets involved. Sitting on the sidelines griping; showing up to race and leaving by 4:00 p.m.; and complaining do nothing but aggravate the situation. Get on your club cabinet. Volunteer for setup and tear down on race days. Get talking amongst your club members and get organized! Designate committees to accomplish the mundane tasks that need to get done in order to put on a race weekend. Find out who has extra gear and put rigs together for test rides for interested fans. Set up an information tent at races (all the stuff is on APBA's Web site). You have to work this problem from the bottom up, and your club is the ground floor. Take action. Take initiative. DO SOMETHING rather than rely on somebody else to do it, because if you do that long enough, those folks get burned out and quit. Then you'll really have nothing.

Don't be part of the problem; be part of the solution!

[sam]

Now we can't race unless there is no wind, no boat traffic, no noise etc. We have limited ourselves to a few venues that will allow us to race or that are raceable. ... We have turned our racing into the 12 man kilo with turns.

Well said Tim

[HRTV]

I've been at home sick following this post for the past couple days now, and haven't been able to put my thoughts into coherent words up until this point. Tim and Bill (prior two posts) have pretty much summed it all up as such; there is little (if any) money out there for sponsorships, and we are a club-based structure that really runs well when people get involved.

Rather than belaboring points and bellyaching about what we don't have (e.g., rich sponsors and bathtubs full of money), lets focus on what we do have and do it right. The LOCAL CLUBS are the golden keys that unlock the possibilities, and the way they really hum is when everybody gets involved. Sitting on the sidelines griping; showing up to race and leaving by 4:00 p.m.; and complaining do nothing but aggravate the situation. Get on your club cabinet. Volunteer for setup and tear down on race days. Get talking amongst your club members and get organized! Designate committees to accomplish the mundane tasks that need to get done in order to put on a race weekend. Find out who has extra gear and put rigs together for test rides for interested fans. Set up an information tent at races (all the stuff is on APBA's Web site). You have to work this problem from the bottom up, and your club is the ground floor. Take action. Take initiative. DO SOMETHING rather than rely on somebody else to do it, because if you do that long enough, those folks get burned out and quit. Then you'll really have nothing.

Don't be part of the problem; be part of the solution!

What factual information do you have that says there is no sponsorship money available? These are all myths drilled into our head by the media. We are not talking about the type of sponsorship needed to run a multimillion dollar Formula 1 race team or a multi car Nascar Cup team.

When I speak of sponsorship I am only suggesting that we find a company like Mountain Dew or Red Bull to pick the tab for a six race series which can be done on a first year trial basis for a very modest amount of money.

This is not belaboring points or bellyaching about what we don't have, it is only a suggestion that might be worth a try.