STOCK Proposals for National meeting.....

[blueskyracer]

Wayne, We think the Yamato 80 will be around for a few more years before it becomes extinct through attrition. What we are trying to prevent is new people from investing in a class that is transitioning to a new single motor, the Sidewinder. That is why there is no proposal to phase out the Y80. We have been trying to get the word out for 2-3 years that these changes are going to happen. The sooner it becomes a reality, the fewer people will be effected. It seems that many are in denial about the changes that are and have been in the works for a couple of years. As to supporting Ric, probably the best idea to help boost his sales is to eliminate the obselete 102 in the C classes. The 302 should be the motor of choice in C. I hate when I hear a new guy bought a used 102 when he should have been advised by current racers that the 302 is a better investment.

That is exactly what happened to us. It is good equipment, you can't go wrong but gee, it is all 102 motors and we are not going to tell you that it is being taken out of the game. I guess what you propose is the equivilant of NASCAR saying in two years that everyone has to run Fords. Chev, Dodge, and Toyota take a hike. Why does there now have to be only one motor per class. I thought the idea was to keep cost down! Let attrition weed out the old motors due to lack of parts.

I also noticed that the price of these new motors are almost twice the price of a Yamato. I don't like the idea of putting all of the eggs in one basket. Especially right now when the economy is so great! If you have noticed a lot of Businesses in the USA have been going "out of business". What if that were to happen with this deal.

So with this new proposal what would be the engines allowed in each class of stock. It is really nice to have one engine and be able to run in two classes with just the use of a restrictor plate. Would buying a Y-80 right now be stupid?

Just some ideas to consider.

[14J]

Let attrition weed out the old motors due to lack of parts.

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on what side of the issue you fall, the S.O. category has a history of allowing for replacement parts. These decisions foster the use of obsolete equipment.

Some may argue that this was necessary as we've had gaps in new and available equipment. Fair enough, I would agrue that we're in a better position today and we should let things run their course (attrition).

[drbyrne55]

Hello Mike,

Shooting blanks... Ouch!

1. John Runne mentioned 6 classes .... Siderwinder (RO LLC) gets : ASH, ASR, 15H, 15R, BSH, BSR .... Yamato CSH, CSR
2. Sean and I have never owned a 202?
3. As for CSR, we're having fun working out the details of CSH/20SSH.

Our 2009 project is to help Revolution Boats develop CSH/20SSH/OSY hydros with the goal of bringing a high tech, molded composite, UIM compliant hydro to the market for around $3500. Traditionally, the price point has started @ $5000 for a hybrid composite boat. Trying to lower the costs of boat racing ..... somewhat like embracing the the Yamato 302 in BSH too We plan running a couple at Nationals for everyone to see ... and test?

Happy New Year!

Dan

P.S. Bob Wartinger has a 202 for sale that won 2008 OSY Nationals

Having APBA depend on one company for 6 classes? Merrill Lynch, Bear Sterns, Lehman ... the list is long. Yamato has a pretty good history it seems. Just food for thought.

The primary reasons for eliminating the Merc in the A classes are as follows:
1) We have a goal of getting back to one motor per class, as Stock Outboard should be.
2) We have a manufacturer currently building BRAND NEW MOTORS for SIX Stock Outboard classes and our future is directly tied to their success. We must support this effort. There has been a huge commitment made both by Racing Outboards and by the SORC. The opportunity is now and that door will not remain open without the full cooperation of all of us. We also are fully aware that some people are going to be angry and may even quit, but we have to have NEW motors available if we are to grow.
3) We do not want to misinform or disillusion new people that all three of these motors are equal. They are not. When somebody new comes into this sport and they buy equipment that is obselete or uncompetitive, 9 times out of 10 they will quit.
__________________
John Runne
2-Z

Hey Dr. Dan, if you're going to shoot from the hip, load your gun with something besides blanks. RO has two classes for each of 3 motors, just like the 302 has two classes - you might remember those boats that have one pointy thing instead of two? Runabouts. We're always looking for more CSRs - buy a 302 from Ric and send one out.

Aren't you the guy who bought the 202 last year?

[reed28n]

Racing Outboard

Hello Mike,

Shooting blanks... I try not to, I'll let ***

1. John Runne mentioned 6 classes .... Siderwinder gets : ASH, ASR, 15H, 15R, BSH, BSR .... Yamato CSH, CSR
2. Sean and I have never owned a 202? Did I tell you that?

Happy New Year

Dan

P.S. Bob Wartinger has a 202 for sale that won 2008 OSY Nationals

Having APBA depend on one company for 6 classes? Merrill Lynch, Bear Sterns, Lehman ... the list is long. Yamato has a pretty good history it seems. Just food for thought.

The primary reasons for eliminating the Merc in the A classes are as follows:
1) We have a goal of getting back to one motor per class, as Stock Outboard should be.
2) We have a manufacturer currently building BRAND NEW MOTORS for SIX Stock Outboard classes and our future is directly tied to their success. We must support this effort. There has been a huge commitment made both by Racing Outboards and by the SORC. The opportunity is now and that door will not remain open without the full cooperation of all of us. We also are fully aware that some people are going to be angry and may even quit, but we have to have NEW motors available if we are to grow.
3) We do not want to misinform or disillusion new people that all three of these motors are equal. They are not. When somebody new comes into this sport and they buy equipment that is obselete or uncompetitive, 9 times out of 10 they will quit.
__________________
John Runne
2-Z

Yes there is a potential for 6 classes by one manufacture. Like Mercury has 6 classes or 10 JH,JR,AXSH,AXSR,ASH,ASR,25SSR,25SSH,DSH,DSR. We cannot compare the sidewinder to the Yamato 302 but the Yamato that runs in 4 classes with different models, 20SSH, 25SSR,CSH,CSR.

The Sidewinder will have 3 different models with very different parts not a restrictor A Model, 15 CID Model and a 20CID model.

[reed28n]

Exactly not like NASCAR

"That is exactly what happened to us. It is good equipment, you can't go wrong but gee, it is all 102 motors and we are not going to tell you that it is being taken out of the game. I guess what you propose is the equivilant of NASCAR saying in two years that everyone has to run Fords. Chev, Dodge, and Toyota take a hike. Why does there now have to be only one motor per class. I thought the idea was to keep cost down! Let attrition weed out the old motors due to lack of parts."

Stock Outboard or boat racing will never be NASCAR. In the 50's we had similar appeal without the popularity of golfing, TV, RV etc.... people would come out in a community to support an event like the Albany to New York marathon.....but that is another subject.

NASCAR as you mentioned is one class for only 43 car teams and they change body stiles and tires. No one shows up at Daytona with tires just because they still have them on the shelf or a 2004 body style just because it is faster than the car of tomorrow.

We are trying to find a delicate balance of the future and the maintaining of the present complicated by all members having a vote, unlike NASCAR. We as members are all responsible for the success of Stock Outboard and while we may disagree on the path, I believe we will all agree that we want to continue to race and attract new members.

[Kev43V]

Bluesky
you brought up the point of cost of the sidewinder compared to Yamato.
That is a very good point.
Sidewinder- brand new never been run. re-engineered based off the hot rod.
Yamato- used motor from overseas- reconditioned for our use.

When I buy tools or equipment for my business I can choose from brands first. Then I can choose to buy NEW or reconditioned from of the brand of my choosing. Reconditioned is almost, if not always 1/2 of new.
I personally feel it is the same in our hobby. and not out of line

If you compare the cost of a NEW J motor and all the stuff you have to buy with it. THEN send it to someone to do the work to make it actually competitive. You are within a couple hundred of a sidewinder.
just one guys opinion Kev

[14J]

If you compare the cost of a NEW J motor and all the stuff you have to buy with it. THEN send it to someone to do the work to make it actually competitive. You are within a couple hundred of a sidewinder.
just one guys opinion Kev

Kev

You bring up a great point. What is the real cost of these inexpensive motors? I would consider my C equipment to be competitive and I can tell you that not one of my Yamatos have less than 4K in them. As I understand it the Sidewinder has been engineered to eliminate the hidden costs of being competitive. So at the current price point I'd say it's fair.

For the cost conscious how cheap do we need to be? Go out and price a go-cart, motocross bike, etc. Think you can find a more reasonable hobby sport?

[drbyrne55]

Bluesky
you brought up the point of cost of the sidewinder compared to Yamato.
That is a very good point.
Sidewinder- brand new never been run. re-engineered based off the hot rod.
Yamato- used motor from overseas- reconditioned for our use.

When I buy tools or equipment for my business I can choose from brands first. Then I can choose to buy NEW or reconditioned from of the brand of my choosing. Reconditioned is almost, if not always 1/2 of new.
I personally feel it is the same in our hobby. and not out of line

If you compare the cost of a NEW J motor and all the stuff you have to buy with it. THEN send it to someone to do the work to make it actually competitive. You are within a couple hundred of a sidewinder.
just one guys opinion Kev

What we have noticed with the Yamato 302:
1. it was raced one year in Japan and really not even broke in yet ..... run it really hard for a season or two more in the U.S. and it gets faster.
2. even a non-mechanic guy usually can get the thing to run!
3. abuse them ... we are steaming at the end of each heat by choice.

P.S. I heard it possible to win back to back CSH titles with a bone stock Yamato with one exception, shape the gear foot ($200).

[Kev43V]

What we have noticed with the Yamato 302:
1. it was raced one year in Japan and really not even broke in yet ..... run it really hard for a season or two more in the U.S. and it gets faster.
2. even a non-mechanic guy usually can get the thing to run!
3. abuse them ... we are steaming at the end of each heat by choice.

Well... I can also buy a brand new chevy truck. or I can buy one with 15 thousand miles on it. with the life of todays motors. I do not think the 15 k mile motor is completely broke in either. Yet how many thousands of dollars less is the USED truck?
Please understand I am NOT trying to argue with you, just explaining my perspective of the situation

[reed28n]

The 302 is great

What we have noticed with the Yamato 302:
1. it was raced one year in Japan and really not even broke in yet ..... run it really hard for a season or two more in the U.S. and it gets faster.
2. even a non-mechanic guy usually can get the thing to run!
3. abuse them ... we are steaming at the end of each heat by choice.

The is no denying the Yamato 302 is a great motor. That is what we want people coming to the sport to buy. A great, currently available motor. We would like to help them avoid buying a motor that is 30 yrs old that they will have trouble finding parts for.

We would also like to introduce new motors for people that cannot handle the weight of CSR at 475 lbs or CSH at 440 lbs.

[Tim Weber]

The 14-J hit it on the head. Where are you going to find a more reasonable motor sport?

Frankly, most boat racers are cheap a$$es. We buy new boats for $2500-$3500dollars. It doesn't even pay for the builder to make a boat. Its' a labor of love. The cost of material is $500-$700 dollars alone and we aska guy to make $2000 on a boat that takes weeks to build. One builder told me he figured he'd make $1.50 per hour.

We buy a motor for for $1200 and run it for 20 years and then the sky is falling when its' obsoleted. I am not planning on buying a sidewinder yet but $4600 is not out of line. The other day I was at a marina and a 4hp 1 cylinder Merc was $1500.

Tim

[Kev43V]

Sooooo, Nobody is going to take apart the Sidewinder and play with it?? HAha, - They are going to have to either make them run with the other motors in the class or get rid of the other motor's, unless you do get rid of the other motors their will be parity issues.

Weld the crank cases shut and the gear cases onto the leg, only to be serviced by RO. then slow the old motors down in the class (or vice versa)
and give 3 years to switch to the new motor.

whatever, just a thought

LOL yes and its not a bad thought. I think it comes down to how much wiggle room Ed leaves in the tech specs. compared to what is delivered.
I am not going to bet on there being much room for fudging. but I have made poor bets before

[drbyrne55]

For those that don't know Revolution Boats is building an OSY and CSH molded/gelcoat/fiberglass/kevlar/foam core/carbon fiber boat for $3500. They are also building a EURO 125 @($3800) and a EURO 250/350 @($4400). Below is the 250. I believe they 1 125 left priced @$3000 as intro pricing to cover mold costs.

The 14-J hit it on the head. Where are you going to find a more reasonable motor sport?

Frankly, most boat racers are cheap a$$es. We buy new boats for $2500-$3500dollars. It doesn't even pay for the builder to make a boat. Its' a labor of love. The cost of material is $500-$700 dollars alone and we aska guy to make $2000 on a boat that takes weeks to build. One builder told me he figured he'd make $1.50 per hour.

We buy a motor for for $1200 and run it for 20 years and then the sky is falling when its' obsoleted. I am not planning on buying a sidewinder yet but $4600 is not out of line. The other day I was at a marina and a 4hp 1 cylinder Merc was $1500.

Tim

[csh2z]

Todd, The Sidewinders will be very competitive out of the box. As for "playing with it " Until we see the tolerances on the spec sheets next week we won't know for sure. With todays technology, machining parts, even high production parts, it is very easy to hold very tight tolerances. Chances are modifications would not result in significant improvement or you take the risk of becoming illegal.

[reed28n]

Fyi

Sooooo, Nobody is going to take apart the Sidewinder and play with it?? HAha, - They are going to have to either make them run with the other motors in the class or get rid of the other motor's, unless you do get rid of the other motors their will be parity issues.

Weld the crank cases shut and the gear cases onto the leg, only to be serviced by RO. then slow the old motors down in the class (or vice versa)
and give 3 years to switch to the new motor.

whatever, just a thought

The castings for the sidewinder are really well done, reducing the need for machined surfaces inside the motor. There is simply just less to play with.