STOCK Proposals for National meeting.....

[csh2z]

A couple things about the picklefork rule:
1) As previously stated, proving the declared construction date of a hull is accurate, will be difficult.
2)All boats built prior to 10-31-07 are exempt. If we are to take safety rules seriously, how can we exempt 80% of the boats on the water? Are they safer because they're older?
3) For most of the boats in most classes, complying with the rule is not difficult, but some of the smaller boats in order to meet these specs could be very difficult and maybe a little expensive.
4)The origin of this rule is from the UIM. I'm sure that some testing/engineering went into the development of these specifications to determine their validity. Aside from OSY 400 all their classes run between 90 and 120 mph. Is that really the model we should expect the typical ASH or BSH to compare to? Also in the UIM races, they use a modified lemans start and generally run on smaller/tighter courses than most of ours (at least that is what I've been told). Their boats are designed specifically for the type of racing they do. They have very different bottom and sponson designs that make the boats more prone to spin-outs and therefore T-bone type accidents.
We are making a rule to comply with the APBA BoD's request that we do so, but we are using dimensions that we believe are more suitable to our needs.

[reed28n]

Some may be missing the point

As John stated, we feel that there is a reduced risk in Stock Outboard.

Not, zero risk ...but because of boat design and top speeds there is less risk than in Mod or Pro.

We feel the size of the boat, on a weighted average, is much smaller and slower than in the other catgories and we have been careful to look at a number of variations of boats.

That being said, we are looking to make a rule that is safer for the whole of the membership of Stock Outboard. A rule that can easily be understood and easily enforced by the local race committees.

"Anybody can take reservations, it is the hold of the reservation that is the most important."

ie.... we can write a whole mess of detailed engineering dimensions, but if you need sliderule and an interpreter to read the rule and a union carpenter to comply with the rule we are not improving. We want to write a rule to help make it better and incrementally safer.



Obtainable and sustainable.......for the good of the whole.....

[reed28n]

Awesome

I have (2) boats here I am gonna paint that that were built after that date and they did not comply to the rule. But, they were built for the stock classes. In less than an hour each boat was altered to comply.

No one is saying you cannot fashion your pickles to meet anyboby elses rule. There are criteria that are argued to be safer. I applaud you for going way over board. Our duty is to establish a minimum standard that every one will comply with and we can easily enforce.

If you want more than five peices of flair on your uniform, your shift supervisor will love it.

[jeff55v]

I agree!

In reference to Steve Warnock's "Is there a rule where its there but not enforced". "Rule 19.2.A, Page 25" The engine shall retain the factory colors and decals, with the following......". Most, if not all OMC 13.2 engines are missing decals. I realize that there is no performance advantage to not have them and if safety is not an issue delete the rule or enforce it!

Bill Thomas 36-R

I understand the need for brand recognition when a manufacturer is supporting S.O. But seriously, how long ago was that? Eliminate the rule, or enforce it!

Oh, and one more question...can somebody tell me why we have two A classes? One called A, and one called AXS. Is this always gonna be like this? Or is one of them eventually gonna be merged or eliminated?
Thanks.

[Kev43V]

No one is saying you cannot fashion your pickles to meet anyboby elses rule. There are criteria that are argued to be safer. I applaud you for going way over board. Our duty is to establish a minimum standard that every one will comply with and we can easily enforce.

If you want more than five peices of flair on your uniform, your shift supervisor will love it.

Feel free to call it "going way over board" if you want.
But if you are going to modify a boat to meet a pickle rule. To me it only makes sense. To make the pickle meet the rules of ALL cats. that you can expect the boat to run under.

If it is all for safety. It is rather silly IMHO to feel that an A-mod needs a bigger radius than a D-stock boat.

[CSR4C]

Fuel Rule

A local races we use the fuel of the day rule by designating a local gas station & grade.
Record races, I have no problem with using fuel that meets the meter. Since the record breakers are only tested, the racer that knows they are no where close to the racord can use the local gas.
The problem is Championship Races.
Last year at Top O' (marahon national championship) there was only one gas station in the area that had legal fuel. I don't want to be carry about 50 gal. of expensive race gas across country to fuel 4 marathon boats. Want to buy LOCAL and help their economy.
I will be very disapointed in the Stock Comission if they don't come up with a soluton!

[mercguy]

No one is saying you cannot fashion your pickles to meet anyboby elses rule. There are criteria that are argued to be safer. I applaud you for going way over board. Our duty is to establish a minimum standard that every one will comply with and we can easily enforce.

If you want more than five peices of flair on your uniform, your shift supervisor will love it.

understandeable Scott, but what is the benefit of a "pointy pickle".............NO JOKES PLEASE!!

oh, BTW, one of the boats I have here is Wartingers NEW CSH/OSY rig (not gonna even be used in MOD)and he requested the pickles to conform atleast to the MOD rule...................what better person then him to listen to??? The pickles were sharp, as delivered at the Nats, but now conform to the MOD rule.

[mercguy]

speeds in stock not fast enough???

No one is saying you cannot fashion your pickles to meet anyboby elses rule. There are criteria that are argued to be safer. I applaud you for going way over board. Our duty is to establish a minimum standard that every one will comply with and we can easily enforce.

If you want more than five peices of flair on your uniform, your shift supervisor will love it.

about 5yrs ago, I was racing CSH in Oroville, Ca and was avoiding a driver in the turn and spun my boat around, well, I was then "t-boned" by another boat of which both pickles busted through the outside chine, sponson and cockpit sides of my boat. The sharp pickle of that boat just grazed my right side hip. It I weren't in such a well built boat, I would have been easily hurt. I am just saying even at C stock speeds, there can be an opportunity for one to be hurt. The rounded sponson tip has a better chance of "bouncing off" or "deflecting" upon impact.

[Skoontz]

I would move to write the rule book so if one rule can effect another, that rule is listed in the same section as it need be listed to give full dislosure.

One example from experience, and there are more, is the numbering rule.

The size and contrast listed in the book, are beyond clear, a simple caveman landscaper such as myself can easily read, follow and obey....Then you get farther into the book, and, there is the discretionary rule regarding numbers that the judge can call you on. Seems to me, even if an asterisk was placed next to those numbering rules directing you toward the judges rule about clarity, it would be much clearer and easier to follow.

[G Stillwill]

I would still like to see test data on this subject. Just because the UIM rules say rounded pickles and I guess they have stuided this there boats are different almost all of them are lay down boats which when the other boat deflects over top which in almost every case it does the driver is laying down out of the way and not kneeling up looking pretty and waving to the croud. If the tips lock into the other boat they become one and the force stops there if the other boat deflects then the force continues in the same direction it was going and that is over top the other boat then you are playing kissey face with the lower unit and mr shreader behind it., simple logic of the laws of energy.

[reed28n]

There is no debate Bob Wartinger knows his stuff

understandeable Scott, but what is the benefit of a "pointy pickle".............NO JOKES PLEASE!!

oh, BTW, one of the boats I have here is Wartingers NEW CSH/OSY rig (not gonna even be used in MOD)and he requested the pickles to conform atleast to the MOD rule...................what better person then him to listen to??? The pickles were sharp, as delivered at the Nats, but now conform to the MOD rule.

There is no intent or benefit for Stock Outboard to go against the grain. Our goal is to be safer. We have not seen a high rate of incidents. Our racing is different than UIM......period.......that is no joke.

Now a personal view, I do not pretend to speak the whole of our sport. I do not believe that the pickle is the most important safety concern. I would much rather see us protect the driver with helmet, cut suit, gloves and impact material requirements and inspections. I feel that this would have a more profound safety result than the pickle point.

I have seen pickles on boats that just look deadly. So builders are not all inclined to round pickles, so a minimum standard will force everyone to move in the right direction. I am opposed to dating boats. I feel if there is a rule it should be for all boats in the category. Make everyone comply. But keep it simple.

That being said, did you hear the one about the Minister, the Priest and the Rabbi???????

[Jim Sweeney]

Are You Serious?

Jeff, Let Me Get This Straight, You Want To Combine Or Eliminate A Kids Class With Some Of The Highest Numbers We Have?. As A Father Who Has A Son That Races Ax And A Wife Who Races Ash I Think You are Way Off Base. My 12 Year Old Son Is Too Young To Race A And Too Big To Race J, The Class Was Created To Accomadate These People. There Are Full Fields At Most Races In Ax, I Doubt We Have Had Elems In Dsr In What, 10 Years Maybe Longer Than That. So If You Want To Start Eleminating Classes Lets Start There.


Jim Sweeney

[ricochet112]

Jeff, Let Me Get This Strait, You Want To Combine Or Eliminate A Kids Class With Some Of The Highest Numbers We Have?. As A Father Who Has A Son That Races Ax And A Wife Who Races Ash I Think Your Way Off Base. My 12 Year Old Son Is Too Young To Race A And Too Big To Race J, The Class Was Created To Accomadate These People. There Are Full Fields At Most Races In Ax, I Doubt We Have Had Elems In Dsr In What, 10 Years Maybe Longer Than That. So If You Want To Start Eleminating Classes Lets Start There.


Jim Sweeney

All good points but remember; the AXS class came about because the Merc 15 was too slow to compete in A against the OMC and a class formed to keep the motor alive.

[propnuts]

I'm with Mike here

There seems to be a general misconception about what the class was meant to be, as opposed to what it has become. Once parity between Merc and OMC was established the class was supposed to go away. In our region we have big fields of AXS, but it is taking drivers away from A. We need to figure out what to do with this class. I would like to see parity re-established between the motors, and then have both motors end up in AXS while the Sidewinder becomes the A motor, but that's just an opinion, and I'm not on the J commision.

[Howie Nichols]

Amen Jim Sweeney. The AXS class will not go away and is managed by the J commission so unless the SORC wants to eliminate A then there is no further discussion needed.

AXS Dad