Stock Chairman's Long Term Plan

[ryan_4z]

Ryan: Stay on point or you'll be accused of sissy-arguing. You said that two engines cannot be run in one class with any success. NBRA, AOF and the J Category (which you forgot to reiterate that I mentioned) have done this. You're simply incorrect about this. Don't try to change the subject to membership numbers in order to avoid your error. Ed.

I am very much on point Ed. How do you measure success? In business success is measured in profits. In boat racing, membership is the measurable number by which we can determine a category, or organization's, success. I did not forget the J category. I purposely omitted it because I don't think it fair to compare a four class category to the likes of whole racing organizations.

[ricochet112]

Dying a Slow Death

Brian,

There can be no long term comprehensive plan for SO unless it includes MOD and vice versa. Stock is MOD anyways and has been for years. Personally I do not see a distinction between the 2 categories. This is due to the fact that here in Region 7 have run MOD at our "STOCK" races for ever and that the stock classes do not run box stock equipment anyways. Plus we share everything except pipes and 4 blade props.

Let's just admit it, drop the titles and combine our resources, it is the basically the same group of people anyways. Call the new category Sportsman Outboard or something along those lines.

Give Ed some credit here. He was asked for a big picture plan and he provided it.

Bill III

PS
Ed - combining SO and MOD is a daunting enough task, leave the PRO's out of it.

If we don't seriously look at something like this this, I'm afraid we'll die of a flesh wound, unless we put a band-aide on it now. We've been slowly bleeding for the last 15 years.



I consider myself a middle ager in an APBA racers life span. I started in 1985, I'm starting my 23rd year.

When I started racing, there were more racers and far less classes, which equates to a much shorter day back then. But now we have so many classes, the one or two class racers are frustrated that they get 2-4 heats in after waiting 6 hours to race (all while watching the same boat run 4-8 heats all before he gets to run once).

In order to survive we must reduce the number of classes and pool our numbers and resources together. We must look at combining outboard classes if we want to exist in 15-20 years.

Mike Bartlett

[ryan_4z]

Ryan: I know that neither you nor I had been born at this point in boat racing time, but you really ought to know your history. Ask your dad or grandfather to tell you about the once largest class in Stock Outboard, B Stock, where the Hot Rod B and Mercury 20-H battled back-and-forth for nearly three decades in the same class with great success. Ed.

I know the history. It worked in this instance because the motors were compatible. The 20 Hot Rod was made to run with the 20-H. You will never convince me that trying to obtain parity between unlike motors is in the best interest of this sport. There is nothing wrong with our difference in opinions. I just happen to think that your approach is better suited for the Mod category. Where obtaining parity would be much easier because modifications can be made. I believe that Stock Outboard will see it's success through single engine classes.

[ryan_4z]

You are not a commisioner in any category with any organization.

I'm not sure what the hell you mean by this, but I don't see the benefit of bringing personal attacks into a political debate.

[Dr. Thunder]

<sninp>...In order to survive we must reduce the number of classes and pool our numbers and resources together. We must look at combining outboard classes if we want to exist in 15-20 years.

Mike Bartlett

Exactly Mike ... As I posted previously:

Imagine, if you will, an individual considering outboard racing and trying to make an intelligent decision about participation. Here is what he/she must first wade through:

CLASS (kilo) SPEED*

KProH 57.84
CSR 60.41
125CCH 76.18
125CCR 64.76
CRR 64.68
250CCH 107.52
250CCR 84.87
350CCH 113.41
350CCR 90.88
500CCH 126.08
500CCR 95.13
700CCH 121.92
700CCR 94.19
1100CCH 122.38
1100CCR 105.59
OSY400 74.58
CSH 59.47
CRH 70.39
FAR 61.15
FAH 64.69
AMR 68.51
AMH 66.81
BMR 73.95
BMH 83.34
CMR 82.56
CMH 83.16
DMR 89.14
DMH 92.03
FER 91.91
25MH 75.59
FEH 104.46
ASR 60.00
ASH 62.16
BSR 69.22
BSH 68.70
CSR 69.79
CSH 73.78
DSR 77.07
DSH 89.84
25SSR 74.49
25SSH 76.74
45SST 85.32
JH 42.75
JR 41.27
AXSH 54.43
AXSR 48.08

*speeds may have increased since initial post

[ryan_4z]

Why not have your cake and eat it too?
The reason Ed brought up AOF is because he has acutally READ the AOF rulebook where there is only one division-stock.mod and pro. Once you read it and understand it, a very bright light bulb goes off and you really do see the light of the future.
Boat racing is not growing as it should be. Think out of the box. It can't hurt the sport anymore than it is suffering at present. AOF is celebrating their 35th year and has had up to 640 members in stock, mod, and pro only. Stage a race with separation between stock/mod/pro, or combine them if needed per race according to speeds. Whatever works. Make the differences in the tech sections to allow it to work. Keep the sanctioning section of a race uniform.
I am not involved with AOFanymore, so this is not a plug. It is simply a suggestion for you to acutally check out the light for yourself and the future of boat racing.
AOF was started by some very impressive people from boat racing history who figured it out and the theory has not been changed. You do not have to become AOF, but it is a good idea to at least look at some of their successes for ideas. After all, AOF IS growing at a pretty impressive rate.
Go to
http://www.aofboatracing.com/
read the rulebook, and then take some of the ideas to the APBA national meeting.
Connie P
oops, I just noticed that the rulbook has been taken down until the new one is added in a few days. If you want an emailed copy of the rulebook, email Russ at:
AOFOffice@aol..com and he can email you one.
Sorry, Connie

Connie,

I apologize if I was misunderstood. I didn't mean my comparison to imply that there is anything wrong with the way AOF organizes its classes, or that the organization has in any way not succeeded at its goals. I believe that the different organizations serve just as great a purpose as the different categories in APBA. I think it would be a shame for us to all use the same model, because one model will not fit everyones needs. AOF and NBRA are just the places to attempt some of the ideas that Ed has brought up in this thread, and that is great because it gives everyone the opportunity to participate in the kind of racing they enjoy. Stock Outboard though, is the only category in any of these organizations, that has a predominantly one motor-one class structure. My apples against your apples, lets find out who's are bigger. That is the kind of racing that I, along with many others, enjoy most. If Stock Outboard looses this identity, then there won't be a place for that kind of racing anymore. We will all be racing apples against oranges, and while that is good for some people, there are a lot of people out there who would be dissatisfied with that result. It would be a shame for the boat racing world to loose this kind of heads up racing.

[ryan_4z]

Exactly Mike ... As I posted previously:

Imagine, if you will, an individual considering outboard racing and trying to make an intelligent decision about participation. Here is what he/she must first wade through:

CLASS (kilo) SPEED*

KProH 57.84
CSR 60.41
125CCH 76.18
125CCR 64.76
CRR 64.68
250CCH 107.52
250CCR 84.87
350CCH 113.41
350CCR 90.88
500CCH 126.08
500CCR 95.13
700CCH 121.92
700CCR 94.19
1100CCH 122.38
1100CCR 105.59
OSY400 74.58
CSH 59.47
CRH 70.39
FAR 61.15
FAH 64.69
AMR 68.51
AMH 66.81
BMR 73.95
BMH 83.34
CMR 82.56
CMH 83.16
DMR 89.14
DMH 92.03
FER 91.91
25MH 75.59
FEH 104.46
ASR 60.00
ASH 62.16
BSR 69.22
BSH 68.70
CSR 69.79
CSH 73.78
DSR 77.07
DSH 89.84
25SSR 74.49
25SSH 76.74
45SST 85.32
JH 42.75
JR 41.27
AXSH 54.43
AXSR 48.08

*speeds may have increased since initial post

I don't think it is all that complicated. The first thing you do is determine what category is best suited for you. Are you a machinist, tinkerer? Then I would recomend Mod. Do you want to go out and race compatible, competetive equipment with driving being the biggest variable? Then stock outboard is the place for you. Or are you the mechanic who wants to run the Alcohol powered bore-and-stroke engines? Race Pro. Once you determine which category you belong in the picking your one or two classes is as simple as taking a couple of boat rides. We don't really have all that many more classes in each category, it's just that we run so many multi-category races that we have a lot more heats to run every weekend. I think that each category is strongest on it's own. We must all find ways for our groups to survive. If we see in the future a single kneeldown category, I believe that we are dreaming to small. I firmly believe that every one of the "kneeldown" categories can grow large enough that running combined races is out of the question. I want to see single category races, with 10-12 classes per category, running elims in most classes on a regular basis at weekend races. If we think that we have to rely on each other for success, then I don't think we are looking a big enough goal.

[ricochet112]

I don't think it is all that complicated. The first thing you do is determine what category is best suited for you. Are you a machinist, tinkerer? Then I would recomend Mod. Do you want to go out and race compatible, competetive equipment with driving being the biggest variable? Then stock outboard is the place for you. Or are you the mechanic who wants to run the Alcohol powered bore-and-stroke engines? Race Pro. Once you determine which category you belong in the picking your one or two classes is as simple as taking a couple of boat rides. We don't really have all that many more classes in each category, it's just that we run so many multi-category races that we have a lot more heats to run every weekend. I think that each category is strongest on it's own. We must all find ways for our groups to survive. If we see in the future a single kneeldown category, I believe that we are dreaming to small. I firmly believe that every one of the "kneeldown" categories can grow large enough that running combined races is out of the question. I want to see single category races, with 10-12 classes per category, running elims in most classes on a regular basis at weekend races. If we think that we have to rely on each other for success, then I don't think we are looking a big enough goal.

20-25 years ago maybe. There just aren't enough current racers to spread ourselves that thin anymore. And if we want to attract new members boat racing must have a very attractive package to compete with all the different hobbies out there today.



"I firmly believe that every one of the "kneeldown" categories can grow large enough that running combined races is out of the question. I want to see single category races, with 10-12 classes per category, running elims in most classes on a regular basis at weekend races."

Boat racing numbers have dropped in the last 20-25 years, and our clubs run multiple categories to survive.

[ryan_4z]

20-25 years ago maybe. There just aren't enough current racers to spread ourselves that thin anymore. And if we want to attract new members boat racing must have a very attractive package to compete with all the different hobbies out there today.



"I firmly believe that every one of the "kneeldown" categories can grow large enough that running combined races is out of the question. I want to see single category races, with 10-12 classes per category, running elims in most classes on a regular basis at weekend races."

Boat racing numbers have dropped in the last 20-25 years, and we've gone to multiple categories to survive.

I agree, that that is the situation we are currently in. I believe the goal though, should be to grow each category to the size that they used to be, 25-30 years ago.

[Cameraboy]

Ryan, I think the concept needs to be one of planned obsolesence - just like the maunfacturing world. Starting with a clean slate, you would always have two motors in a class - the new one coming in, the old one going out.

Unfortunately, we aren't starting with a clean slate, so there would be (if classes were mushed together) cases where one is coming in and couple going out. We need to stop keeping ancient motors in classes just because "everybody has one".

Through a plan, people need to know that (example only) the 25 year old OMC "A" they're going to buy won't be a legal motor in their class in 3 years, so maybe they want to consider the new Sidewinder.

My problem in the 4 years I've been doing this isn't that my equipment may become obsolete, it's that I don't know when, or what is replacing it.

When a class is in a transition stage, there needs to be a parity committee to keep people involved. What we seem to do now is push more motors into classes so that folks with old motors can keep racing - and never define the end game.

Charlie makes an excellent point - what is the goal here? Is it growth? Is it maintaining current racers? Is it national attention? More spectators? More races? Fewer classes? Less expensive? Shorter day? Leave my class alone?
I've heard all of the above here, and they are at cross-purposes. That makes goal setting and planning tough.

This started as a thread on Ed's long term plan. Hey Ed - what in your opinion is the goal(s) of Stock outboard racing?

Anybody else - what are the goals?

My thought - Stock should be a class utilizing equipment that is as race-ready as possible, is set up in a speed-based series of classes, and emphasizes participation and safety.


trying not to be patronising

[csh2z]

Mike, That post is an example of why I asked you to be on the steering committee. BRAVO! Check your e-mail, I've sent you a bunch of stuff. John 2-Z

[14-H]

I know the history. It worked in this instance because the motors were compatible. ****.

Ryan: The motors were not compatible. One had a rotary valve induction, the other a reed valve system; one had a finely tuned exhaust system that produced lots of power, the other needed a grotesque contraption (now worth $2500) to make it produce power to compete with the other.

Since you are so familiar with this story, however, maybe you can ask them about the 25SS class that had the OMC and Merc engines in it and which were both competitive until Mercury threatened to pull the plug on SO racing unless SO made it illegal (essentially) to run the OMC in the class.

You want to keep arguing???? Ed.

[14-H]

*** Hey Ed - what in your opinion is the goal(s) of Stock outboard racing?

***:

Mike: My philosophy (or goal) is simple: Establish a frame work of 4 hydro and 4 runabout classes to allow new engines to come into the category and be competitive with the old.

I don't think you can obsolete (or even phase out) the old stuff unless you have a firm committment from a manufacturer to produce engines for a particular class and that manufacturer has the where-with-all to produce lots of engines quickly. That was true when the KG4 was obsoleted (ie: OMC). But, it hasn't been true in our category since. Ed.



Add: That would be a Stock-only plan. True good planning, in my opinion, would take into account Stock, Mod, J and Pro. That's what my original proposal included. Ed.

[14-H]

Hey Ed, You might want to retrack that statement.

LOL She

Sheila: I didn't know your car was considered a recreational vehicle. Ed.

[Ron Hill]

Way Off Subject....

Sheila Schaub...did that guy that owned the body shop in Kankakee, Illinois ever finish that Corvette????

Please say HELLO to your mom and dad for me....

Back on topic:


When CARL got mad at my OLD MAN, 1954, Stock Racing's image changed, never to be as big as Carl made it.... How did my dad change Stock Racing? Russ Hill, Sr. was motor inspector (Measurer as they were called in those days) at the DePere, Wisconsin Nationals, 1954.

All the Californians that had Mark 20-H motors had hack sawed their cowling all to HELL and Mercury's name wasn't on the motor....Carl got with my dad and offered all Californians NEW COWLING. He wanted the ADVERTISMENT. My dad explained that the RULES said, COWLINGS could be removed. Carl vowed to change that rule...by the next day. When he couldn't, he vowed to not make anymore racing motors...... Hmmm, you say..1954...

More later...