SO Yamato Rule Changes

[race4kaos]

Course...

First off, although I know enough to be dangerous, I don't take any credit for how fast Joe's stuff is. That's all him. And I will go out on a limb and risk this... Yes, he's had a 302 at Goller's for 2 years he's been dying to get back and is excited to get it going. As close as some 302's are getting to him, he would love to be the first to win with one. If you want a 302 to prove itself, call Bob and have him hurry it up for us. Good luck with that...

We run 102's because:
-he's got a bunch of them
-they are all fast
-the National's course / run to the first turn is LONG

Hemp has had a 302 FLYING!! It could've won at any point.
Several divisional and OSY titles have been won with 302's.

It will happen in time. One thing I will bet on, a 302 will win a CSH Nationals before any rookie (like the 2 in Atlanta with boats and no motors) will - regardless of which motor they buy. So don't be afraid to set them up with a 302.

(A couple of us joked that the best rule would be from now on if you win the C Nationals with a 102, you can no longer participate in the class except with a 302. That would be ridiculous, but fun and force the leveling of the field! Plus the auction after inspection would be entertaining!! Joe and I would be up for it...)

[les]

And as a result...

A couple of us joked that the best rule would be from now on if you win the C Nationals with a 102, you can no longer participate in the class except with a 302. That would be ridiculous, but fun and force the leveling of the field! Plus the auction after inspection would be entertaining!! Joe and I would be up for it...

Think how large the C Mod Hydro class is going to grow!

[DougMc]

Another argument, Wally Schlipf's rig won OSY at the winter nationals with Lombardo driving against J. Michael. He was 102 powered!

Tim

In OSY JMK with a 302 was much faster than lombardo in Wally's boat a 102 at Winter nats (Sorry Wally) on both the long course and 3/4 course.

jmk was slower than me in CSH and i had a 102, but much faster than me in osy. At 2006 AOF Winter Champ at Lake Placid John Schutenhoffer and I were pretty equally matched. He had a 302. I had a tiny bit on Erik Peterson and a lot on Erik Lundgren both of whom had 302s.

One thing for the powers that be to remember is that if CSH rules are changed OSY rules change as well. If a water pick up is allowed with the 302 in CSH, the water pick up will then be allowed in OSY. OSY has no height limit which will allow the 302 to be jacked up super high, much higher than the 202 or 102. With this change the 302 will be the dominate OSY motor, which with Billy Allen's 04 and 05 wins and jmk's records it may already be anyway.

As for the two new Region 5 drivers without motors, if they are smaller or thinner guys a 302 will be much better for them. They will run better in osy and 20SSH with a restricted 302. if they are heavy like me or peanut a 302 really wont help them much and either motor will work. However, they should know that a 102 hydro prop WILL NOT work properly on a 302 hydro and a 302 hydro prop WILL NOT work properly on a 102 hydro (Source: Dewald). If they run a 302 and have a proper 302 prop they will run with us all.

I run 102s because it came as part of the original package deal i bought and my 202 is not legal in APBA stock. I would buy a 302 if were starting totally from scratch. Also, I'm eyeing Darren's 102s so the new guys better act fast and are lucky I'm out of town/away from my check book. If the new guys do get 102s, I have two good Dewald 102SH props they can try and buy if they work for them.

[race4kaos]

Csh = Osy ??

No. SO's CSH rules have no bearing on what PRO does with their OSY class.

I'm guessing PRO see's no problem with the current condition of OSY. They even allow the faster 202.
(It's just the SO Chairman that doesn't seem to want to leave it alone.)

[14-H]

I ***! I guess Ed does not care what the CSH drivers have to say, since he still wants to implement a change to make the 302 even more competitive (of which it pretty much is the dominant engine in CSH in Reg10). I guess I will have all my 102's for sale now...........

Darren: That post is not really in the spirit of good debate. Of course I care, that's why I'm asking. But I also see it as a problem that an engine that has been available for over a decade has not won the nationals in the APBA's largest class. I'm also concerned about the comments I hear from Mr. Webber. I hear that scenario a lot and believe that we are losing new members because they can't find equipment they think they can eventually make competitive.

Now, if you don't like your chairman being concerned with those issues, tell your commissioner that he/she should vote for a chairman next time who does not think those concerns of the members are important. Ed.

[Cameraboy]

Is 102 vs. 302 really the most compelling issue to resolve in LA?

Ya know, this whole thread makes me think that the problem with stock outboard is too much focus on Nationals and not enough on local development.

I had several other paragraphs written until I realized that I really don't care anymore; it's like beating a dead horse.

[race4kaos]

Ed,

Can I ask if you have a 302 in the basement? Maybe it was the next one down from that 25 Merc...
As an aging, growing father, are you looking into CSR (quit A, probably getting over weight in the B, now into 25SSR...) ?
Last year your beef was with 25SSR... Drivers were split. Data said to leave it alone. You brought it up at the meeting multiple times until a change was made. You won the Nationals.
Now it's on to the C class... hmm.

[mercguy]

In OSY JMK with a 302 was much faster than lombardo in Wally's boat a 102 at Winter nats (Sorry Wally) on both the long course and 3/4 course.

jmk was slower than me in CSH and i had a 102, but much faster than me in osy. At 2006 AOF Winter Champ at Lake Placid John Schutenhoffer and I were pretty equally matched. He had a 302. I had a tiny bit on Erik Peterson and a lot on Erik Lundgren both of whom had 302s.

One thing for the powers that be to remember is that if CSH rules are changed OSY rules change as well. If a water pick up is allowed with the 302 in CSH, the water pick up will then be allowed in OSY. OSY has no height limit which will allow the 302 to be jacked up super high, much higher than the 202 or 102. With this change the 302 will be the dominate OSY motor, which with Billy Allen's 04 and 05 wins and jmk's records it may already be anyway.

As for the two new Region 5 drivers without motors, if they are smaller or thinner guys a 302 will be much better for them. They will run better in osy and 20SSH with a restricted 302. if they are heavy like me or peanut a 302 really wont help them much and either motor will work. However, they should know that a 102 hydro prop WILL NOT work properly on a 302 hydro and a 302 hydro prop WILL NOT work properly on a 102 hydro (Source: Dewald). If they run a 302 and have a proper 302 prop they will run with us all.

I run 102s because it came as part of the original package deal i bought and my 202 is not legal in APBA stock. I would buy a 302 if were starting totally from scratch. Also, I'm eyeing Darren's 102s so the new guys better act fast and are lucky I'm out of town/away from my check book. If the new guys do get 102s, I have two good Dewald 102SH props they can try and buy if they work for them.

Doug, what are you basing your "302's do not work well with heavy guys" theory?? That really is completely of the opposite. The 302's have more low end torque and why they are dominant in CSR, as they allow the boat to "pull harder" out of the turns..........

[mercguy]

Ed..........

Darren: That post is not really in the spirit of good debate. Of course I care, that's why I'm asking. But I also see it as a problem that an engine that has been available for over a decade has not won the nationals in the APBA's largest class. I'm also concerned about the comments I hear from Mr. Webber. I hear that scenario a lot and believe that we are losing new members because they can't find equipment they think they can eventually make competitive.

Now, if you don't like your chairman being concerned with those issues, tell your commissioner that he/she should vote for a chairman next time who does not think those concerns of the members are important. Ed.

you are basing this discussion of only what Tim has said, but not listening to the countless others are saying in contrast! You have heard what alot of the top drivers (me, Not INCLUDED!) have said about the 302 and the answer has been to leave the 102/302 thing alone for now. Why don't you concentrate about more important things (like the smaller classes) and leave the largest APBA class alone. Or do you want kaos in every class?

[mercguy]

Dsh.........

Darren: That post is not really in the spirit of good debate. Of course I care, that's why I'm asking. But I also see it as a problem that an engine that has been available for over a decade has not won the nationals in the APBA's largest class. I'm also concerned about the comments I hear from Mr. Webber. I hear that scenario a lot and believe that we are losing new members because they can't find equipment they think they can eventually make competitive.

Now, if you don't like your chairman being concerned with those issues, tell your commissioner that he/she should vote for a chairman next time who does not think those concerns of the members are important. Ed.

so, what do you plan on doing to allow the Tohatsu to win the Nationals in DSH, versus handicapping it so much, as it is now? I believe this class has more issues than CSH, which is doing just fine and will continue to. Everyone I have talked to said, that if there were starting over or new in CSH, they would buy a 302, but most already have a ton invested into their 102 programs, that they cannot afford to switch over.

and the statement that "we are losing new members due to not being able to find competitive equipment" is horse****!! First off, there is ALOT of top notch equipment for sale RIGHT NOW, just look! Second, no newcomer is EVER going to win a NAtional Title right off the bat. It take lots of years to even get close. Hell, it took me almost 7yrs to move from last place to the middle of the pack and still am along ways off, but am not giving up. John Runne mentioned to me that it took him almost 20yrs to win a high points title and I imagine there are very similiar stories like that..........

basically, it is easy to start racing, but if you want to win, it takes ALOT of money and time to get there.............nothing is easy!

[dholt]

The membership has spoken...

Hey Ed, sounds like the majority on this topic here on HR have you trumped.

Perhaps the focus could be shifted elsewhere...like a plan for the entire category for the future.


Are we going to go on forever with ASH, ASR, BSH, BSR, CSH, CSR, DSH, DSR,
20SSH, 25SSH, 25SSR?

Does AXSH and AXSR really belong in the 'J' category? Why??? There are 60 year old men racing in the "Junior" category. Yes, there are kids....but they aren't 9 year olds.

Why is a class that hasn't had more than 20 participants (DSR) since prior to 1997 still receiving National recognition?

I hope some of these items make the agenda.

Wish I could be there. I would wrote a comprehensive restructuring plan but will not submit as my presence there would be necessary to fully explain. Plus, more info is needed from Hot Rod to fully complete the plan. Hope they have some timelines ready to present in LA.


Dana

[csh2z]

CSH - With an external water pick-up and a 1000' run to the first turn, Ed's dream comes true. On most race courses my 302 out performs my 102 (and I've done pretty well with my 102 rig). Count on it!
Dana, I'm preparing a number of proposals to address your concerns. I wish you could be there. I believe this year we have the support to get the program started. You'll be hearing from me. John 2-Z

[f8andbethere]

snip... First off, there is ALOT of top notch equipment for sale RIGHT NOW, just look! Second, no newcomer is EVER going to win a NAtional Title right off the bat...snip

I don't think you really understand the issue that is facing stock outboard racing. It has to do as much with understanding the mentality of new racers as anything. Folks want to be able to buy NEW equipment and go racing. They want to be able to buy new equipment and be competitive, if not be able to win.

Look at other forms of motorsports -- specifically motorcycles, jet skis, snomobiles, and go-karts. They have new equipment every year and that is one of the things that sustains them.

That being said the real issue here is why has it taken so long for the new motor to become competitive? Certainly there has been little or no support from the factory. Certainly the SORC has not been able to deal with the issue in a timely manner.

This really brings us to an even larger issue: that issue is what is the job of the SO VP and what is the job of the SORC?

Without answering that question the sport will regularly get into circular arguments such as we have seen in this thread. If there is not a written goal(s) for the SO VP and SORC to meet each year, and if these goals are not measured each year to understand whether or not the SOVP and the SORC has done its job, then the sport can not grow.

For example, why shouldn't the SOVP be leading the way to develop new motors for the sport? Someone on an earlier post said there was no incentive for new motors to be produced -- so why shouldn't the SOVP in concert with the SORC develop these incentives?

Why shouldn't the SOVP at the behest of the SORC (which in reality is or at least should be the boss of the SOVP, like a board of directors and the president of a company) be developing process so that the introduction of a new motor is a regular thing and all the folks in the cycle -- current class participants and new class participants know what to expect?

This isn't exactly rocket science as it is done with some regularity in other forms or racing mentioned earlier.

Let's look at motorcycle racing -- the American Motorcycle Association has something over 300K users; the AMA headquarters are within a four drive of the APBA headquarters. How many times have the two organizations met to talk about mutual issues? If they are not meeting yearly we are all (boat racers and motorcycle racers) worse off.

Yes there are many serious issues, but there will always be issues -- that is what life is all about; how we deal with those issues is how we define whether stock outboard racing is successful or not.

[csh2z]

F8

Please sign your post, it is worthy. Don't be skeered! John Runne 2-Z

[mercguy]

I understand more than you think!

snip... First off, there is ALOT of top notch equipment for sale RIGHT NOW, just look! Second, no newcomer is EVER going to win a NAtional Title right off the bat...snip

I don't think you really understand the issue that is facing stock outboard racing. It has to do as much with understanding the mentality of new racers as anything. Folks want to be able to buy NEW equipment and go racing. They want to be able to buy new equipment and be competitive, if not be able to win.

Look at other forms of motorsports -- specifically motorcycles, jet skis, snomobiles, and go-karts. They have new equipment every year and that is one of the things that sustains them.

That being said the real issue here is why has it taken so long for the new motor to become competitive? Certainly there has been little or no support from the factory. Certainly the SORC has not been able to deal with the issue in a timely manner.

This really brings us to an even larger issue: that issue is what is the job of the SO VP and what is the job of the SORC?

Without answering that question the sport will regularly get into circular arguments such as we have seen in this thread. If there is not a written goal(s) for the SO VP and SORC to meet each year, and if these goals are not measured each year to understand whether or not the SOVP and the SORC has done its job, then the sport can not grow.

For example, why shouldn't the SOVP be leading the way to develop new motors for the sport? Someone on an earlier post said there was no incentive for new motors to be produced -- so why shouldn't the SOVP in concert with the SORC develop these incentives?

Why shouldn't the SOVP at the behest of the SORC (which in reality is or at least should be the boss of the SOVP, like a board of directors and the president of a company) be developing process so that the introduction of a new motor is a regular thing and all the folks in the cycle -- current class participants and new class participants know what to expect?

This isn't exactly rocket science as it is done with some regularity in other forms or racing mentioned earlier.

Let's look at motorcycle racing -- the American Motorcycle Association has something over 300K users; the AMA headquarters are within a four drive of the APBA headquarters. How many times have the two organizations met to talk about mutual issues? If they are not meeting yearly we are all (boat racers and motorcycle racers) worse off.

Yes there are many serious issues, but there will always be issues -- that is what life is all about; how we deal with those issues is how we define whether stock outboard racing is successful or not.

first off, there are not many "NEWCOMERS" that can enter our sport and buy all new equipment. I know I could not when I started. The thing that brought me in is that you could buy good used equipment at a good price and might not be the fastest, but newcomers really should not have the fastest equipment when they start. They need to learn how to drive first (which there is still alot of racers that can't!), then they need to know how to compete. They then will learn what class most interests them and go from there. After all that is said and done, they CAN go buy new equipment if they want, motors are available for A/20/C/D, etc. You actually think you can go buy a new motorcycle or go-cart and win right off the bat..not gonna happen. You think Ricky Carmichael, etc races a "stock, off the show room floor" motorcycle............ya right! Same goes for super bikes, the guys that are winning races are probably racing $100,000 if not more, bikes that you CANNOT buy off the showroom floor. Our level of boat racing is no where near the other sports you have mentioned and most do not want it to be that way.....