SO Yamato Rule Changes

[dt 01]

302

i think the 302 is already taking over here in reg. 10...in 20ssh and CSH soon...there are some fast 80's for sell here and nobody is buying these motor's they are top 3 motor's meaning if you buy one you WILL run up front....but up front here means the 302's in both classes!! at a club level anyway's guess we will find out at Winter Nat.. this year...I run the old motors the 102 and 80....I'm starting to think I have 3 motor's that will not Sale hope it's not 4 soon...

Dave 68R

[Tim Weber]

It seems that the 302 is doing well out west. Maybe there are not as many good 102's in your area.

On the east coast I have seen only one really good 302 on a hydro and its been Billy Allen's rig. I saw him win OSY at Depue 2 years ago. Other than him, I can't think of a 302 winning a race.

Tim

[mercguy]

that's it...........

It seems that the 302 is doing well out west. Maybe there are not as many good 102's in your area.

On the east coast I have seen only one really good 302 on a hydro and its been Billy Allen's rig. I saw him win OSY at Depue 2 years ago. Other than him, I can't think of a 302 winning a race.

Tim

"there are not as many good 102's in your area"...........

your right Tim, my 102's and everyone else must suck! The 302 racers are doing their homework!

[42R Dad]

J. Michael won the Pro Nationals with both a 102 and a 302. I still have the 102 but has not run since we bought the 302.
The 302's are available and you can get parts for them and they keep getting faster.

[dt 01]

fast 102

i think there are some real fast 102's Daren's, Bob Wartenger so on ....Jmicheal would have broke the osy record with my set up if he did not wreck and jump the gun....he was over the record all weekend....but i have not raced anyone from the east coast.....but i do feel the 302 is the way to go for the new racer's...they can race 3 classes with same boat motor and not even have to change motor just pull lead in and out....and here the guy's up front are all using the 302 for 20ssh and CSH...

Dave 68R

[dt 01]

I've only raced a year, but what I've seen here in region 10 there are some fast 302's. It won't be long before the 302's are keeping up with the 102's

what 102 win's more than the 302 HERE in REG 10..... i think there's only 3 guy's using a 102 that ever Win...but most the time the overall winner is using a 302 so in short they DO NOT NEED HELP WITH RULE'S TO GET FASTER!!!

[14-H]

102 vs 302

Okay, here's my attempt to phrase this question as delicately as possible without offending my good friends in Region 10 upon a matter that is completely legitimate (I'm serious!) and solely related to whether the 102 is faster than the 302 and in no way reflects any bias, prejudice or preconceived notions about east coast versus west coast drivers (remember, I'm from the midwest and not from either the east or the west), truly posed only for the purpose of continuing this important discussion and only in response to these posts about all the fast 302's in Region 10, but I'm going to ask this question 'cause I think it's a fair one and I only mean it in that manner:

When is the last time any of those fast Region 10 302's have won the CSH Nationals?

Okay, I'm running for cover...

[Dave M]

Why Run

for cover...... the paragraph before your question is enough to make everyone else run for cover......

[race4kaos]

Commish...

This has been an interesting thread for a long time. It is funny to read some people's opinions. It is more even more funny to hear the East vs. West coast differences [as Ed touched on].

Ed keeps referring to The Nationals. He wants a 302 to be able to win CSH on a Big course. But any changes to 'help' make this happen would make the 302 the engine of choice on a shorter course. Bad idea.
People also want new [C class] racers to be able to buy a new competitive motor. They can - the 302 is the obvious choice. Parts are available, they can win at [most all of] our weekend races, etc. Who cares if one hasn't won the CSH Nationals yet. I'm sorry, but that new CSH racer isn't going to win the Nationals any time soon.
Let's look at the people that have won the SO CSH Nationals. Sure they won with 102's, but they are elite racers that have put forth a huge effort. Some of these people also have 302's they win with locally.
And as pointed out, some 302's are real close. Billy & JMK are great drivers and have won big titles with the 302. The shorter the course, the more their driving and 302's can shine.

My concern with changing the rules:
-it will add cost (no way around it)
-a CSH National Champion caliber type person will come out and embarrass the field with a 302 with the new advantage (and put egg on your face)
-the 102 becomes uncompetitve on short [every weekend] courses, upsetting many owners

My analytical opinion is that since the 102 & 302 have different power curves, they can only truly be 'balanced' at a single given point/speed.
To truly level the 102 & 302 in CSH, the rules would have to change at every race course. This adaptive tuning is obviously impossible for a simple sport.

Conclusions:
-the 302 is competitive in CSR most anywhere (due to 3/4" height and torque)
-the 302 is competitive in CSH on the average course

SO LEAVE IT ALONE!!

(The ONLY change that has made any sense here would be to allow the 302 to add a water pick up. I don't see how it could make them MORE competitive than a 102. But it might help people who struggle to run a 302 at 1/2" and make them more competitive than they were otherwise. And it might save motors & parts which is better for the future of the sport. Japan isn't going to make us more parts when we run out.)

Now just for fun:
Ed, the only ways I see to make a 302 win the SO CSH long course Nationals is:
-the top 102's jump
-have the Nationals out west and the top 102's don't show
-JMK steals 2 starts and drives 'wide'
-force the top 102 people to race a 302 (once they put all the time, $, & effort into the 302 that they put into their 102 rig's, they would still be the 'top' guys)
-change the rules for the class so the top sandbagging 302 guys get the help they've been waiting for to walk away with it (kinda like you did with 25SSR).

[race4kaos]

Commish...

This has been an interesting thread for a long time. It is funny to read some people's opinions. It is even more funny to hear the East vs. West coast differences [as Ed touched on].

Ed keeps referring to The Nationals. He wants a 302 to be able to win CSH on a Big course. Any changes to 'help' make this happen would make the 302 dominate on shorter course. Bad idea.
People also want new [C class] racers to be able to buy a new competitive motor. They can - the 302 is an obvious choice. Parts are available, they can win at [most all of] our weekend races, etc. Who cares if one hasn't won the CSH Nationals yet. I'm sorry, but that new CSH racer isn't going to win the Nationals any time soon.
Let's look at the people that have won CSH. Sure they won with 102's, but they are elite racers that have put forth a huge effort. Some of these people also have 302's and if they spent as much effort
And as pointed out, some 302's are real close. Billy & JMK are great drivers and have won big titles with the 302. The shorter the course, the more their driving and 302's can shine.

My concern with changing the rules:
-it will add cost (no way around it)
-a CSH National Champion caliber type person will come out and embarrass the field with a 302 with the new advantage (and put egg on your face)
-the 102 becomes uncompetitive on short [every weekend] courses, upsetting many owners

My analytical opinion is that since the 102 & 302 have different power curves, they can only truly be 'balanced' at a single given point/speed.
To truly level the 102 & 302 in CSH, the rules would have to change at every race course. This adaptive tuning is obviously impossible for a simple sport.

Conclusions:
-the 302 is competitive in CSR most anywhere (due to 3/4" height and torque)
-the 302 is competitive in CSH on the average course

SO LEAVE IT ALONE!!

(The ONLY change that has made any sense here would be to allow the 302 to add a water pick up. I don't see how it could make them MORE competitive than a 102. But it might help people who struggle to run a 302 at 1/2" and make them more competitive than they were otherwise. And it might save motors & parts which is better for the future of the sport. Japan isn't going to make us more parts when we run out.)

Now just for fun:
Ed, the only ways I see to make a 302 win the SO CSH long course Nationals is:
-the top 102's jump
-have the Nationals out west and the top 102's don't show
-JMK steals 2 starts and drives 'wide'
-force the top 102 people to race a 302 (once they put all the time, $, & effort into the 302 that they put into their 102 rig's, they would still be the 'top' guys)
-change the rules for the class so the top sandbagging 302 guys get the help they've been waiting for to walk away with it (kinda like you did with 25SSR).

[mercguy]

wow!

This has been an interesting thread for a long time. It is funny to read some people's opinions. It is more even more funny to hear the East vs. West coast differences [as Ed touched on].

Ed keeps referring to The Nationals. He wants a 302 to be able to win CSH on a Big course. But any changes to 'help' make this happen would make the 302 the engine of choice on a shorter course. Bad idea.
People also want new [C class] racers to be able to buy a new competitive motor. They can - the 302 is the obvious choice. Parts are available, they can win at [most all of] our weekend races, etc. Who cares if one hasn't won the CSH Nationals yet. I'm sorry, but that new CSH racer isn't going to win the Nationals any time soon.
Let's look at the people that have won the SO CSH Nationals. Sure they won with 102's, but they are elite racers that have put forth a huge effort. Some of these people also have 302's they win with locally.
And as pointed out, some 302's are real close. Billy & JMK are great drivers and have won big titles with the 302. The shorter the course, the more their driving and 302's can shine.

My concern with changing the rules:
-it will add cost (no way around it)
-a CSH National Champion caliber type person will come out and embarrass the field with a 302 with the new advantage (and put egg on your face)
-the 102 becomes uncompetitve on short [every weekend] courses, upsetting many owners

My analytical opinion is that since the 102 & 302 have different power curves, they can only truly be 'balanced' at a single given point/speed.
To truly level the 102 & 302 in CSH, the rules would have to change at every race course. This adaptive tuning is obviously impossible for a simple sport.

Conclusions:
-the 302 is competitive in CSR most anywhere (due to 3/4" height and torque)
-the 302 is competitive in CSH on the average course

SO LEAVE IT ALONE!!

(The ONLY change that has made any sense here would be to allow the 302 to add a water pick up. I don't see how it could make them MORE competitive than a 102. But it might help people who struggle to run a 302 at 1/2" and make them more competitive than they were otherwise. And it might save motors & parts which is better for the future of the sport. Japan isn't going to make us more parts when we run out.)

Now just for fun:
Ed, the only ways I see to make a 302 win the SO CSH long course Nationals is:
-the top 102's jump
-have the Nationals out west and the top 102's don't show
-JMK steals 2 starts and drives 'wide'
-force the top 102 people to race a 302 (once they put all the time, $, & effort into the 302 that they put into their 102 rig's, they would still be the 'top' guys)
-change the rules for the class so the top sandbagging 302 guys get the help they've been waiting for to walk away with it (kinda like you did with 25SSR).

I actually agree with most of what Kevin has stated, prior to the "just for fun" statement! I guess Ed does not care what the CSH drivers have to say, since he still wants to implement a change to make the 302 even more competitive (of which it pretty much is the dominant engine in CSH in Reg10). I guess I will have all my 102's for sale now...........

[Tim Weber]

Kevin,

Does that mean that you and Joe will retire your 102's and work to make the 302 the dominant motor since you have been sandbagging?

I think you just proved Ed's point concerning the nationals. On a big course the 102 is better. If it were not then you would run a 302.

On a big course with a runabout the 102 is pretty good too. Rich Runne 2006 national champ 102 powered, 2nd place Mike Ross 102 powered, Joe Pater 102 powered, Brock Shwebke 102 powered, Tom Nuccio 102 powered. Why did Runne run a 102? It was faster!

Why did you and Joe, Hemp, Donny Allen, Kargus, Weigel, Runne, Sutherland etc. run 102's? There faster!

Another argument, Wally Schlipf's rig won OSY at the winter nationals with Lombardo driving against J. Michael. He was 102 powered!

This is why I re-opened the the thread. I have 2 guys with CSH boats in Atlanta and they have no motor.

It's nice to win local races but if you want to get serious about this then you have to try and compete on a bigger level. I haven't seen a 302 win a divisional, winter national or summer national.

Pretty straight talk for a lawyer Ed.

Tim

Tim

[mercguy]

Kevin,

Does that mean that you and Joe will retire your 102's and work to make the 302 the dominant motor since you have been sandbagging?

I think you just proved Ed's point concerning the nationals. On a big course the 102 is better. If it were not then you would run a 302.

On a big course with a runabout the 102 is pretty good too. Rich Runne 2006 national champ 102 powered, 2nd place Mike Ross 102 powered, Joe Pater 102 powered, Brock Shwebke 102 powered, Tom Nuccio 102 powered. Why did Runne run a 102? It was faster!

Why did you and Joe, Hemp, Donny Allen, Kargus, Weigel, Runne, Sutherland etc. run 102's? There faster!

Another argument, Wally Schlipf's rig won OSY at the winter nationals with Lombardo driving against J. Michael. He was 102 powered!

This is why I re-opened the the thread. I have 2 guys with CSH boats in Atlanta and they have no motor.

It's nice to win local races but if you want to get serious about this then you have to try and compete on a bigger level. I haven't seen a 302 win a divisional, winter national or summer national.

Pretty straight talk for a lawyer Ed.

Tim

Tim

as to the CSR Nat's in 06, 2nd place was Kyle Bahl with a 302!! Last year was 2nd J. Michael 302 powered and me, 302 powered. The West Coast Stock Divisionals in CSR and CSH were both won with 302's. Gary Lewis won his elim heat in CSH at the 2005 Nat's with a 302. The OSY record was broken with a 302! Also, I think 302's are more common out West since Montoya is in the area. Tim, you have guys that wat 102's, well then I have (2) of mine for sale now....going the 302 route now............

I guarantee a 302 will place in the top 3, if not win in CSH and CSR this year at the Stock Nat's and most probably Winter Nat's. Once the 302 guys get as much "seat time" as the 102 guys have in "dialing in" there 302 setups, they will dominate. It seems as the ideal prop for a 302 has been developed and being improved now.

[17W]

302/102......

Quit belly aching about which one is faster/stronger blah, blah, blah......

Go testing & if you are not fast enough w/your 302.......tear it apart & ensure all that can be done is done, call Dewald, & try another boat!

Results 2006 CSR Nationals 1) Rich Runne (102) 2) Kyle Bahl (302) 3) ME (302)

Get off the computer, quit complaining & fiqure out what component your program is missing to get you out front. If you think the 102 is the ticket, get your wallet out & buy a good one!!!!!!!!!!!

[mercguy]

Lol!

Quit belly aching about which one is faster/stronger blah, blah, blah......

Go testing & if you are not fast enough w/your 302.......tear it apart & ensure all that can be done is done, call Dewald, & try another boat!

Results 2006 CSR Nationals 1) Rich Runne (102) 2) Kyle Bahl (302) 3) ME (302)

Get off the computer, quit complaining & fiqure out what component your program is missing to get you out front. If you think the 102 is the ticket, get your wallet out & buy a good one!!!!!!!!!!!

I love this statement, it says it all, short, sweet and right to the point! Way to go Brent. Are we gonna see you guys at the Winter Nat's?