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Originally posted by Jeff Brewster 59s
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What would the folks who race 20ssH with a 302 do?
Mike
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Maybe I misread the proposal, but it looks like the 302 would be out of the 20ssH class. If this is correct, I'm trying to understand how this helps the class. Help me see what I'm missing
What would the folks who race 20ssH with a 302 do?
Mike -
Mike, the way I understand this person's proposal is the 302 and 102 would be only in CSH and CSR. What this would do (and not do) to help the sport is up to many different opinions.Comment
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That would drop the boats for 20ssh. guys like billy allen who runs csh. and 20ssh. with a 302. One of the fastest guys out there.
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Ok this plan really doesnt effect me and Jeff I can deal with the 10 pounds I already put 17 pounds in whats another ten....lol. With boat count or entrys low as they have been a club usually has to have 80 to a 100 entries a day to break even no matter where the entries come from be it stock, mod J's or pros. With all the new or used motors that are able to be run there is a place for a new person to start cheap or costly. The object it is to get more entries on the water. I will do this as one example of taking one class out. You have four drivers running two class over three days. Thats 8 entries a day times three days thats 24 entries for the weekend. At 40.00 and entry thats 960.00 for the weekend to the club. Now we take one of there classes away and we now have 4 entries a day times three days and the 12 entries for the weekend and at 40.00 per entry thats 480.00 for the weekend. Now the club lost 480.00 and that just by taking one class away. So now the club adds more classes of Mods or Pros but wait some clubs or places cant run Mods or Pros so they just loose money. Im not sure how this puts more boats on the water but let me know where you bought your calculator so I never buy one there...lol. Jeff the pot needed stiring some...lolDestiny is a matter of chance,it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved.Comment
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Few 80's or 102's racing in Region 10
Appreciate your time, effort & patience on this subject Jeff. But as an FYI and to piggyback Mike's thoughts. Out here in Region 10 it's not uncommon for us to have full fields in the 20ssh class, yet almost all of our 20ssh participants run restricted 302's. Very few Yamato 80's or Yamato 102's (restricted or not) race out here anymore. This includes CSH, CSR, 25ssr & OSY-400...all 302's.Originally posted by pav225 View Post
Until we see a few Sidewinders, you may want to consider waiting on fazing out the restricted 302's (& possibly 102's) for a few years in the 220ssh class. My thoughts only.
Good Luck.
JimComment
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Steve Nourey runs 9 classes and 1 extra day of racing in New England. SSORC breaks even at worst and this is after providing awards to their drivers. Steve has a proven financial model with 9 classes. It works.Originally posted by G Stillwill View PostComment
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What Classes? Full Fields? Not saying it isn't being done..just wondering how? George and I have pretty much the same calculator..We put 4 CSR's out for the 3 in 2. 12x35=420 and then 4 25SSR's 8x35=280 No matter how you slice it without 25SSR club loses $280.00 just from 1 pit...Multiple that by 5 races..$1400 less to the coffer...again just another $0.02..Originally posted by 14J View PostRoger A 68M
Team CasualComment
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Originally posted by Affholter66 View Post
We'd need Steve to chime in. From what i saw this summer the 9 classes had at least 6 boat heats. 6 boats being the min. The extra day of racing cost $15 and there was nearly no drop off. The race day always ended at 3:30. He has constructed a great program.Comment
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Guys,
In an effort to not sound like a broken record, all of these plans are not my own! They are from our members and commissioners. I put them in a public forum so that they can be discussed and show their value (if any). When someone makes a logical suggestion like "let's add 10 lb to slow down the 15S engine" I put that in the plan in and effort to find a acceptable solution.
Hate to sound negative, but the chance of finding a plan that is acceptable to all is kind of thin. If I actually find two members that agree 100% on a plan, I will fall over. LOL
Everyone seems to say, "sounds pretty good, but???"
I fully understand the economics of what our clubs are dealing with (and my calculator works fine, George
). Most plans come out of the drawing room with the members supporting it through their wallets so that the club can live to see another race.
This is where Mr. Noury has gone in another direction than a lot of us. How he can run a ten class program and still have SSOA stay afloat is his hard work well before the race. How many clubs have members knocking on doors up to a year in advance trying to get sponsorships for the upcoming regatta?
Not too many I would bet, but Steve is and that is what has turned around Region One. Yes, he has a strong club of hard working people to back him but with the added money and a short program, he is able to put a third day of racing on and some special events too. Instead of the club pocketing the extra money from the drivers to stay afloat, it goes back to the memberships in tow money and amazing awards at the end of the race day.
If we could clone Steve Noury and have one in every region, our sport would grow ten fold.
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First of all I think this is an interesting plan which seems like it would be competitive in all classes and would interesting to watch, competitively where competing engine brands are proposed. I also applaud Jeff Brewster for putting these proposals out in the open where they can be discussed and vetted by the masses. Whether we agree with the plans or not, the most we can ask is that the leaders of our organization put the plans out and allow ample discussion and to that point, Mr. Brewster has put forth a top notch effort and I thank him.
Now for my "buts"
Making the 20ssh strictly a 20 ci class (Could we call it B Hydro?) with the Y80 up against the sidewinder is probably the best opportunity to move forward with the sidewinder 20 and support those who are supporting us with new engines. Just a few questions: Why not Give both rigs the same height and weight rules? Either open the sidewinder up to 1/2" below or have 'em both meet at 3/4"? From what I have seen from the sidewinder, I think this could make them more likely to be immediately competitive in 20 - but it would require a new boat and significant investment in the new engine, prop work, R&D to do it. I think in this configuration the sidewinder would eventually (probably sooner then later) become the dominant configuration, but this seems to follow the available engine logic, if that is the consensus I don't know why we should tip-toe towards it. The second and third comments in regards to this class both have to do with removing the restricted 302 or 102 from 20ssh. I believe removing the restricted Yamatoes will immediately cause participation numbers to decrease in 20, in a major way, at least at races that I attend (region 1). I second the motion made above for Steve Noury to chime in and my questions are in regards to the finances of removing the restricted Yamtoes from 20. By my count the Kingston race outlined as a major success above (which I wholeheartedly agree) would go from fielding an 8 boat 20ssh race to 2 boats (with Y80s) there ... not even a class. How does removing 24 entries from the weekend (8 entries X 3 days) affect the financial viability of the program? My second point in removing the restricted Yamatos from 20 would be from the "potential newbie" perspective. Allowing 302's and 102' to run in 20 hydro sets up the newbie/mentor relationship as veteran C drivers can offer their equipment set up as a 20 rig to "up and comers", folks getting back into the sport ...etc. I offer as examples: Colleen Tweedy stepping up to 20 in Billy's rig, and others Bill has put in his boat as we all try to promote the sport, Wayne Digacomo (Wayne, sorry for the spelling) and others driving Charlie Gonyea's. ... heck even myself as I have run a restricted C setup with a 302 and have landed on 20ssh as my favorite class ... but please see this from the perspective of the ability to get "new" guys in boats as oppossed to be my "from my motorbox perspective". The 302 / O'Connor setup was the most affordable racing setup available when We got back into racing, it grew the numbers in region 1 to get us where we are today, it even got Bill on the podium at a World Championship. This format removes a class option from that configuration. I would think the 302ssh commitee would want to think about this, I saw a value in the ability for a 302ssh driver to step up in "year 2", break the seals on his motor and have the 20ssh, CSH, OSY (at least for now) option when he/she has the "experience" to race with more "open rules".
... 25 mercs in CSH: 25 with restrictor is only going to be viable on long open courses, it may have a wide open advantage on those courses leading to the strange scenerio where a C driver has two setups ... thoughts?. Having driven both classes a second concern would be for safety, A driver in a 25XS, which is missing the out of the corner punch that the Yamtos have is going to need to keep the Merc "spooled up" to try to be competive and that along with the corner closing speed of the merc compared to the Yamato; - in my opinion, could lead to some potentially dangerous situations in the highly competitive CSH class. For those who have not run both classes, the Yamato has a light flywheel, short throttle throw and can generally be run right to the corner and shut down, the merc tends to have a very long throttle throw and tends to carry speed deeper into the corner. CSH is a very competitive class, usually with a lot of boats and congested corners, I assert that putting rigs into the class with much different corner entry speeds could potentially cause some issues at the first pin. Take a look at Paul Luippold's youtube page and watch the CSH first turns at Kingston; now imagine a 25XS rig closing on that corner running 2 mph faster and wanting to apex to corner at a different, deeper angle.
... my two cents, please read as thoughtful concerns, certainly not meant as a rant. Greatful for the opportunity to express our thoughts as a membership ... and of course to Go Racin!Comment
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just bought new hydro and 302 for my son to run 20 hydro from asr trying to stay with the times .should have kept model 80 from the 70 littile mixed old wernerComment
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Our Secret......
There is nothing wrong with your calculators, it is the line item of your budget called sponsorship that is missing..........and a lot of hard work to procure that sponsorship.
Kingston Fall Classic - We scheduled nine classes on the sanction. Everybody knew which classes were to be run, no surprises. We drew 54 entries or an average of six boats per class with CSH being the largest with ten, and AXH the smallest with four. We decided to include AXH because it is primarily a kids class and we did not have a J Hydro class at this event.
After all of these years we have come to the conclusion that a well run program will get you 6-7 heats per hour. With this in mind, we ran an extra heat on Saturday as your third day of racing. We charged $15.00 for an entry. With our format everybody runs the third day and we add an additional $790.00 to our revenues, and we are done by 4:30PM, ready for the pot luck supper on the site at 6:00PM. After the pot luck supper we distribute merchandise awards for 1st - 3rd both days. Everyone is one their way by 8:30PM.
We start at noon on Sunday, done by 3:15 PM and everyone is home by dark.
Our expenses are no different that everybody else - sanction / insurance $3000; toilets, ambulance, property rental etc. The big difference is we work hard to secure the $2K in sponsorship to make it happen. The Kingston Children's Center puts out a 20 page program book including all of the advertisers. These books do get read by the spectators as there is 14 pages of information relating to racing. The Book is infomative, it gets read, the sponsors are comfortable that they are getting exposure for their dollars spent. We also announce the sponsors during the day with a bio of their business.
When it is all said and done, 2012 generated a surplus of funds to the tune of $900+; We ran for three days of points; presented merchandise awards, tow money to out of Region drivers; and everyone left at a reasonable hour.
I don't believe that there has ever been an out of Region driver attend this six year event that did not enjoy themselves. For our own guys in SSOA, this is how we always roll.
Back to the topic of this thread, Plan D is probably one of the better proposals, however, it would kill this successful event. Eliminate 302's from 20SSH and we lose 6 entries per day. Eliminate 25SSR as a seperate class and we lose 6 entries per day.
My suggestion - do not change a thing with the class structure. What needs to be changed is how clubs utililize this structure to accomondate their membership. What worked at Kingston would not work in Region 4. We had 5- DSH, 7, CSR and 6 25SSR's. They don't run any of those classes. However, they can schedule a limited number of classes bases on the popular group in their Region. Don't list All Stock, All Mod, All Pro, on the sanction, pick the 10 best classes and go with it. Bottom line is we all want to race. The members that you may lose going to this format, are the members that you were going to lose anyway.
Let every class run for hi points. To avoid the perception that some classes have it easier due to lighter numbers, let's raise the minimum entry to five to be scored and that there has to be a minimum of forty participants within the class to qualifiy for the championship. This will put more boats on the water, bring a better show, and add dollars to the club.
I could go on forever but I made a New Years resolution to not let this consume my life! Feel free to pm me or email snoury@comcast.net
Steve NouryLast edited by TPLACE31; 01-01-2013, 04:38 PM.Comment
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A Logical Point System
HIGH POINTS BY NUMBER OF ENTRIES
Number of Entries
12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
1 1000 975 950 925 900 875 850 825 800 775 750 725
2 750 731 713 694 675 656 638 619 600 581 563
P 3 563 548 534 520 506 492 478 464 450 436
o 4 422 411 400 390 380 369 359 348 338
s 5 316 308 300 293 285 277 269 261
i 6 237 231 225 220 214 208 202
t 7 178 174 169 165 160 156
i 8 133 130 127 123 120
o 9 100 98 95 93
n 10 75 73 71
11 56 55
12 42
If a logical point system was used, then "HGH POINT" winners could easily be determined for each class. This point system rewards classes with more boats, but allows a class with one boat to race (Combined with other classes).
AS for DROPPING the 302 from 20: Dave Hale started racing A Hydro this year, by mid season he ordered a new 20 boat and raced 20 SS Hydro the last two races with a borrowed 302 from Ernie Dawe. Dave's boat and Dave himslef are too light for C Hydro and he doesn't feel he wants to go C Hydro speeds, right now. Marlee have has been racing A Hydro and AXS for several years now. We talked about getting her a 20 Hydro, and would have had one by now if anyone out here in California, near Japan, knew what the rules will be. Joe Johnson just bought a 302 and is planning on running C Hydro, I don't know if he'd planned to run 20 or not. Dave Biagi has bought a 302 to run C Hydro, again I don't know if he plans to run 20. I know of 2 or 3 drivers in SoCal that plan to run 20 and CSH with a 302.
I see limiting classes as foolish, race the classes in your area that have enough boats to race. We haven't had a J Race in SoCal for four years, should J be dropped???
For Championship races there should be Major and Minor Classes, based on last year's points. I see it as Ironic on the APBA Stock Web Page that D Runabout is shown and whe is the last time they had a Nationals? .Major classes would count tow Hall of Champions, Minor classes would not.Last edited by Ron Hill; 01-01-2013, 12:50 PM.Comment
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There have been DSR's at the last nationals I have attended. Plenty at Top'O.Comment
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