Stock Outboard Questionaire

[blueskyracer]

I agree with Dave untill you get a plan that promotes close boat racing and get rid of the parade that always developes when folks are going for time you will not get any interest in new folks joining..Crowds and crews alike want to see racing like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPOQUlQXt0

[stevegray]

Hey Dave, you got that right! How are you guys doing up there in Michigan, (right to work) Oh Well! Tell your Dad (Lyle) I'll see him in turn #1 one of these days. Steve Gray M-60/M-59

[raceright]

I agree with Dave untill you get a plan that promotes close boat racing and get rid of the parade that always developes when folks are going for time you will not get any interest in new folks joining..Crowds and crews alike want to see racing like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPOQUlQXt0

Only Two boats HMmmmm very interesting

[blueskyracer]

Only Two boats HMmmmm very interesting

Seems the amount of boats is not as important as the close racing is.

[Bob Rusnak]

Seems the amount of boats is not as important as the close racing is.

Seems to be a typical small field and trying to put on a show for the spectators. We have done this many times at local races. Rule of thumb is last turn, sprint for the finish. I have seen the lead boat slow down so the pack can catch up and make a show. Remember, spectators do not really know what is going on.

[blueskyracer]

Seems to be a typical small field and trying to put on a show for the spectators. We have done this many times at local races. Rule of thumb is last turn, sprint for the finish. I have seen the lead boat slow down so the pack can catch up and make a show. Remember, spectators do not really know what is going on.

A parade of boats does nothing for spectator interest or the sport even at nationals and as a drive close racing to me is what it is all about..If you look closely the Budweiser ran out of nitrous on the last lap..This was the gold cup so no one was laying back..

[krazy karl]

We had a couple of heats like that this summer in ASR. Just 2 boats, the 3rd had fallen behind. Even the guys and gals in the pits were lined up on the beach watching. How about drag racing, only two cars at a time. But we need as many boats as we can get and again I don't want to see the SW's get dumbed down by weight restrictions. Let 'em go, if they become so much faster more drivers will start acquiring them and the OMC's will go away on their own. For awhile at least we will have the excitement of the battle between the two, so far they seem to be about even. I for one have always enjoyed the fun of watching the Chevy's and Fords beating up on each other while a couple of lone Mopars whip 'em all. How about those two Dodges in Nascar this year? The backup car didn't do too badly either. I propably won't be watching next year as my brand is gone. So let's not forget, fans like to see diversity in the field too as well as close racing. Remember IROC, man was that exciting, NOT.
kk

[csh2z]

Dave,
I think you would find that most of us agree with most of what you said. The NBRA model is a good example of an organization with a sound philosophy and achievable goals. The greatest advantage NBRA had is the fact that it started from scratch with some very experienced people willing to work hard to create a successful product. A very admirable accomplishment.
Our problem is, we need to get from where we are to where we want to be. We are in the first and most difficult stage of this transition, and as expected, there is and will be resistance to any change. We already have a rulebook that's too thick and a program that is too drawn out. We can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. We need to create the philosophy, set the goals and draw a plan to generate the support from our membership to move forward.

[Yellowjacket]

The Sports Car Club of America has Solo II events that are very popular all across the country with thousands of entrants participating every weekend and a national finals that draws over 800 cars for a week of competition.

There are a few lessons that they have learned along the way that might be appropriate for APBA racing.

One key lesson they learned the hard way was was making more classes just diluted the entry base and took entries from successful classes. They created a "street prepared" series of classes for cars with modest modifications, thinking it would attract "new blood", folks who had modified their cars some but weren't fully race prepared. What happened is that the number of entries in the prepared (racing car) classes plummeted. Turned out that there was a fixed number of folks that wanted to run and they looked at the classes and picked classes that were easier to win (softer competition) or that favored their car or a car they liked and prepared a car to win in that class. The newbies came out and promply got spanked by the folks who had been doing this for 20 years, and they got beat so bad they never came back. Bottom line was the number of classes increased and the total entry numbers didn't change. Sound familiar?

They then found a forumula that was successful, limted modifications and classes that run on street tires. More importantly, the tires were closer to what newbies that wern't tuned into the sport were running, so newbies didn't get beaten so badly. The newbies had a lot of fun, and they came back, week after week. It also didn't hurt that you could be competitive without the huge expense of racing tires (think $1500 for a set of Hoosier tires and get 60 one minute runs and they were toast). The tires in these classes were able to be used on the street with decent life. Now you didn't need to trailer your car or take tires to the track in a tag along trailer, so the cost went way down. The lesson from this is that it's important to provide a lot more fun for the buck if you want to grow.

The Solo II program is hugely successful, and one key to the classing system is that every sporting car has a class it can run in (at least most cars). That doesn't mean that every car is competitive in its class, but there is a class for you if you want to run your car. In fact the rule makers consistenlty say they won't outlaw any car, but that doesn' t necessarily mean your car will be competitive.

But they also have a policy that "old gets replaced by new". What that means is that old cars will tend to get put into classes where they can do OK, but it's not likely that they are going to win a national championship with a 20 year old car. Seems like the APBA could use the same approach. If you want to run the older, much less expensive motors you can, and you can do OK with them, but you won't win a national level race. That way people can get started with inexpensive equipement and not have to spend a fortune to get hooked. Later they'll spend the money to buy a newer motor, better hull, and eventually get competitive. Not many people can afford to go out and buy a compeltely new top of the line equipment to find out they if they really want to do this. And remember, used equipment would get a lot less expensive if it was less competitive. As faster folks pass on used, better equipment, that will provide a "staircase", the first step being used not so competitive equipment, then better, but still used competitive stuff, and then later new equipment.

In the meantime the sport will grow and get a lot more healthy and since the expeses are spread over time it doesn't keep people out of the sport.

Unfortunately right now there doesn't seem to be a real plan to figure out how to get that "staircase" in place for each class.

Finally, if you are going to build the sport you need to get a much more inexpensive "starter class" that people can get into, try and acquire the bug. It seems to me the folks in Wisconsin, with the MiniV, SportC and ProV classes have be a good approach. Small, stock, readily available inexpensive motors, and light inexpensive hulls that you can build, and others you can buy, and NO RACING LOWER UNITS seems like something that could grow the sport.

Just some observations, I hope you find this constructive.

[bill van steenwyk]

Yellowjacket:

Your comments/post is VERY constructive, IMHO.


The problem in any organization is getting someone to listen, and then take action on the solving of problems, especially when the classes that may be affected are the same ones participated in by the folks who make the rules (racing commissions)

APBA and also most other boat racing sanctioning bodies have always been member run and member driven/supported, but sometimes that has it's down side also.

Bill France, Wally Parks, and others who names I do not know all realized this and constructed very successful racing programs and organizations.

If I were the "wishmaster", I think the most important thing for APBA members to decide right now, is whether they want to continue to be a "member driven" organization, realizing where that has gotten them to this point, or give it over to someone willing to make a large investment of time and money to try to save the sport.\, IF THAT PERSON COULD EVEN BE FOUND. This would mean the members giving up a large measure of control, and even more difficult than finding a "sugar daddy" I think that is almost impossible.

It did not work too well 10-12 years ago when some APBA members tried to do this, but maybe times are hard enough now someone might be wanting to loose a lot of money and try it again.

[csh2z]

Yellowjacket,
Some of the proposals we've been discussing , contain many of the elements you just sited. It will be very helpful to know of an organization that has been down this road and has become successful.

[Tim Weber]

Yellowjacket basically restated my post from a couple of days ago.

I went a little farther welcoming back classic engines. As far as I am concerned, I would welcome a KG-9.

We need entries! I don't care what they are. The clubs are losing money more times than not. Since we have no sponsors we pay the way. Do the math.

The insurance is killing us as it stands. Ask the USTS. That's a whole another can of fish bait.

Tim

[nbass]

NBRA has set a good example

Dave,
I think you would find that most of us agree with most of what you said. The NBRA model is a good example of an organization with a sound philosophy and achievable goals. The greatest advantage NBRA had is the fact that it started from scratch with some very experienced people willing to work hard to create a successful product. A very admirable accomplishment.
Our problem is, we need to get from where we are to where we want to be. We are in the first and most difficult stage of this transition, and as expected, there is and will be resistance to any change. We already have a rulebook that's too thick and a program that is too drawn out. We can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. We need to create the philosophy, set the goals and draw a plan to generate the support from our membership to move forward.

From a vender perspective, NBRA has been very successfull and continues to be the primary customer for Bass Machines products. From the onset they accepted the Tohatsu without restrictions and run them with the 44xs and 40mod engines. Often a full field and the winner is not always the same. As I understand any of the three engines can and do win. NBRA will make sure that everyone gets to race and put on a show. Fewer rules and politics, more fun and less cost as I understand. APBA stock and Mod would do well to combine and copy the NBRA model.
Respectfully,
Neil Bass

[Ron Hill]

Iroc was one car, one motor class

We had a couple of heats like that this summer in ASR. Just 2 boats, the 3rd had fallen behind. Even the guys and gals in the pits were lined up on the beach watching. How about drag racing, only two cars at a time. But we need as many boats as we can get and again I don't want to see the SW's get dumbed down by weight restrictions. Let 'em go, if they become so much faster more drivers will start acquiring them and the OMC's will go away on their own. For awhile at least we will have the excitement of the battle between the two, so far they seem to be about even. I for one have always enjoyed the fun of watching the Chevy's and Fords beating up on each other while a couple of lone Mopars whip 'em all. How about those two Dodges in Nascar this year? The backup car didn't do too badly either. I probably won't be watching next year as my brand is gone. So let's not forget, fans like to see diversity in the field too as well as close racing. Remember IROC, man was that exciting, NOT.
kk

Karl:

Let the Sidewinder be the IROC Motor and have its own class, allow OMC's and Merc's to step up until there are enough Sidewinders to fill the 96 A Hydros that are currently racing OMC's...

DID NASCAR GIVE PENSKE SOME EXTRA POWER or was it Brad's driving??? I believe it was Brad, as Sam Hornish never won a race and Robbie Gordon dropped out after California where he couldn't qualify. Penske rented Robbie motors for $80,000 a race.

My wife is a HUGE Joey Logano fan. Do you think she knows the brand of car he drives? Next year when he's driving for Penske, she still won't know what kind of a car JOEY drives.

In boat racing the best race of the day is the one your kid is in or the one you are in.....Stock Outboard Owners and Drivers have to be ready, willing and able to pay their own way. Spectators ain't going to pay to watch little boats running around some lake....Put them on a small lake, race at night, you might get some spectators......might.

[blueskyracer]

From a vender perspective, NBRA has been very successfull and continues to be the primary customer for Bass Machines products. From the onset they accepted the Tohatsu without restrictions and run them with the 44xs and 40mod engines. Often a full field and the winner is not always the same. As I understand any of the three engines can and do win. NBRA will make sure that everyone gets to race and put on a show. Fewer rules and politics, more fun and less cost as I understand. APBA stock and Mod would do well to combine and copy the NBRA model.
Respectfully,
Neil Bass

You said it all Neil. Great class structure..Time for testing and yet still racing is done in plenty of time for more evening fun well before 6, and everyone got to race. We did two NBRA races last year and had a fantastic time. Lots of close racing and I was able to run my 40 mod in the D class and then put on the 44 and run E mod..