Stock Outboard 2011 National Meeting Updates!!!!!!

[raw]

3/4 hieght

Mike and Don. Can you guys run at a 1/2 inch all the time on any coarse in any water conditions.If yes Bravo to you! Mike if you need real world data I can send you a whole cupboard full of scuffed up pistons.The 20 class has really picked up here in Canada but every winter I have to fix 1 or 2 overheated engines including my own last year and I have over 20 years experience with these motors.We have guys running tell tale water hoses up the side of their boats to keep from frying motors.Do we really whant a full feld of guys looking down at a water hose and not watching ahead or behind them on the way to the first turn.Is it fair to keep the rule the way it is because it's not a problem for a handful of guys that have it figured out.What about the 90 or so others who are at risk of frying their motors do they not matter.How many more blocks and pistons do we need to screw up before we fix the problem.What is your solution for the masses so I can pass it on to the folkes up here that are getting tired of paying me to have to fix their motors.I fear if I don't give them a solution soon they will give up and Quit!.This is not a personal attack against you guys,but I need answers to a problem that I feel does exist you guys don't so maybe you can help us out. Thanks Ross

[pav225]

3/4" or 1/2" or Even with Bottom??

Ross,
Send me the pistons. I will gladly use them!

My solution for you and everyone else is ADJUST your boat. I'm pretty sure that 20ssH did not always have a height restriction and some guys used to run the prop shaft almost parallel with the bottom of the boat. So I apologize if I seem stubborn about 1/2" being able to work.

Here are a few things you can do to get better cooling:
1. Put a tunnel in the bottom of the boat
2. Trim 1/8" off the full length of your airtraps
3. Get a bigger prop

Hopefully that will help you get the cooling you need and eliminate the need for running water hoses up the side of the boat.

Let me know how those changes work. If they don't, I will be happy to help more in order to get your boats/motors to cool.

- Mike

[Matt Dagostino]

Sweet..................

Mike and Don. Can you guys run at a 1/2 inch all the time on any coarse in any water conditions.If yes Bravo to you! Mike if you need real world data I can send you a whole cupboard full of scuffed up pistons.The 20 class has really picked up here in Canada but every winter I have to fix 1 or 2 overheated engines including my own last year and I have over 20 years experience with these motors.We have guys running tell tale water hoses up the side of their boats to keep from frying motors.Do we really whant a full feld of guys looking down at a water hose and not watching ahead or behind them on the way to the first turn.Is it fair to keep the rule the way it is because it's not a problem for a handful of guys that have it figured out.What about the 90 or so others who are at risk of frying their motors do they not matter.How many more blocks and pistons do we need to screw up before we fix the problem.What is your solution for the masses so I can pass it on to the folkes up here that are getting tired of paying me to have to fix their motors.I fear if I don't give them a solution soon they will give up and Quit!.This is not a personal attack against you guys,but I need answers to a problem that I feel does exist you guys don't so maybe you can help us out. Thanks Ross

Wish you were at Seattle last year to support my effort to lower the 20ssh class height! Not only would it have helped the 302 position itself more prominately in the 20ssh class but it would have saved burnt up pistons. I was a major sponsor of lowering the CSH height a few years ago and not only did Montoya's piston sales dramatically decline after the lower height was adopted in the class but the 302 nudged a little closer to being the Motor Of Choice in the CSH class over the Antique model 102 .......... The problem in the 20ssh debate last year was that the 'audience' was stacked against me and we lost the vote......but that's politics and the democratic way. I tried. Maybe if you bring a few of the Canadians to the National Meeting in Chicago next year we can get it passed! Just a thought.

I know we are straying from the bigger picture here but all the little things do add up in time!!

Matt
Region 4 Commissioner
ps...........i run at 1/2" but it is a juggling act to do it. As my friend 225-V states it is a formula to make it work. My argument is why have to run on the 'edge' when a slight reduction in height will assure you pump adequate water. And it will be consistant with the CSH height to help the drivers running both classes with the same boat and motor!! Ok, i am done now!

[pav225]

Flat Head?

Ross and all 20ssH Drivers,

One more thing...if your motor chronically overheats, make sure the head is still flat. This will help ensure a good seal against the block.

If you have any doubts, send it to TJ. He can check for flatness and fix it if needed.

- Mike

[Big Don]

Ross I can't speak for Mike, all I can tell you is we never had issues pumping in the past. Several years we had a new boat that we cooked 3 engines with, including our best engine. (Unfortunately that engine has never been the same) we got rid of that boat and have had no issues since.

Do we change the setup? Sure, if it’s really rough or the wind is blowing of course we do. That is just part of racing.

I can tell you we run at max height most of the time.

We do have some props that pump better than others. We adjust accordingly.

As far as the looking down at the hose on the way to the first turn. Half the guys we race with don’t look anyways…and the ones that do…you just know that they know you are there before they chop you.

[raw]

Mike,you are speaking to me as one vet. to another.I have the skills and tools to make all the adjustments you talk about.What about the new guys don,t own a wood plane or know how to use one.None of them have the know how to put tunnel in the bottom of the boat.I don,t have the time to do it for them as I coach hockey (and still play ,old farts club).I have the tools to check heads and all were flat.Do you reuse head gaskets or use anew one everytime as I do.It is also critical that the sleeves stick proud of the block 2 or 3 thou. to make a good seal to the head.Mike you did not answer my question if you can run at a 1/2 all the time everywhere in all water conditions.I run at 5/8 all the time safely.I recommend to all newbies to start at 3/4 to be safe but when they go on this site and see the national champ say they have no problems that scares me because the newbies don't understand the hours of testing ,boat adjustments as you say,the number of props as you say,to get to where they are.Don admits that most are not willing to give that kind of effort(spendig one's last dollar).Why does it have to be so difficult?Why not put it to ballot and let the participants decide if they are willing to hack up their boats, cylinder heads,and buy new props or pull out a1/4 inch or less.I know I would gladly pull my 1/8 stick rather than hack up my boat.

[pav225]

Questions/Answers

Ross,
I'll use your quote to answer the questions below...

Mike,you are speaking to me as one vet. to another.I have the skills and tools to make all the adjustments you talk about.What about the new guys don,t own a wood plane or know how to use one.
That's pretty sad. All 4 of my kids can use a wood plane. The youngest is 4.5 years old! If they can't do it, get someone to help at the race site.

None of them have the know how to put tunnel in the bottom of the boat.I don,t have the time to do it for them as I coach hockey (and still play ,old farts club).
Good. I work a ton of hours, travel for work, coach basketball, baseball, and soccer. Oh, and I have 4 boys that break stuff every day!...so no sympathy from me regarding lack of time. But I do agree the tunnel would be a challenge.


I have the tools to check heads and all were flat.Do you reuse head gaskets or use anew one everytime as I do.It is also critical that the sleeves stick proud of the block 2 or 3 thou. to make a good seal to the head.
I will resuse a headgasket if needed (at a race site or testing) but I prefer to put on a new one. GREAT point on the sleeves!


Mike you did not answer my question if you can run at a 1/2 all the time everywhere in all water conditions.
Glad you asked again...I don't run 1/2" all the time. As a great mentor Jerry Gravesen used to say "to finish first, first you must finish". Whatever your boat is, run at a height that works for you. That could mean 5/8" or 3/4". I don't think you will see a huge difference in course speed. Start at 3/4" and work your way up if you like


I run at 5/8 all the time safely.I recommend to all newbies to start at 3/4 to be safe EXCELLENT IDEA!but when they go on this site and see the national champ say they have no problems that scares me because the newbies don't understand the hours of testing ,boat adjustments as you say,the number of props as you say,to get to where they are. Yes, we work our butts off! and I won't apologize for that! When possible, we test after every race (while others sit in chairs and scoff) and are always trying to learn new things. Always remember that this is Racing


Don admits that most are not willing to give that kind of effort(spendig one's last dollar).Why does it have to be so difficult? It's racing and people will always be willing to work hard to win. Probably similar to sports...why do kids have to be on travel leagues from the momment they can walk?? Crazy!Why not put it to ballot and let the participants decide if they are willing to hack up their boats, cylinder heads,and buy new props or pull out a1/4 inch or less.I know I would gladly pull my 1/8 stick rather than hack up my boat.
Again, there wasn't a height rule in the past and guys set-up their boats to be raceable and pump water. You still are responsible for your own set-up, that's part of racing. I recommend trimming traps and/or dropping motor to 3/4" to start. I know of a few CSH drivers who quit CSH when the height went to 3/4" because they didn't want to rework their props. So either way you impact people and changes need to be made or money spent

I'll make an offer to help the new guys. If they have a boat that is not working well or pumping water, I will help make it better. I know it will be a long drive, but we have a few early season races that you guys could attend and I will help them dial in boats. We'll bring all the tools, just be ready to work. NO CAPT, This does not apply to you!

I'm off to work on race stuff! Later.

[dholt]

Hey Mike,

Can you come on down to Cincy when you get a chance.

I've haven't ever raced at 1/2"...and that's with 3 distinctly different boats...dozens of props and 3 different gearcases over the past 11 years.


I'm too slow for you boys up there in Cheesehead land.

D.

[pav225]

Yes

We may be at Sweeney's in March...

Or come on up to Pell Lake or DePue.

- Mike

[pav225]

Hey Mike,

Can you come on down to Cincy when you get a chance.

I've haven't ever raced at 1/2"...and that's with 3 distinctly different boats...dozens of props and 3 different gearcases over the past 11 years.


I'm too slow for you boys up there in Cheesehead land.

D.

I completely missed this!

Ross, let everyone read that a 4 time National Champ in 20ssH runs below 1/2" and always has. So, let the new guys know that you can run below 1/2" and still WIN!

Dana, glad you brought this up.

Now out to the shop...

- Mike

[raw]

Mike,I was fully aware the 4 time champ cannot run at the limit as I helped him drop his motor down the last time we raced together.Don most of the new guys up here only have one or two props and even if they had more they do not have the 30 years experience of reading the water to adjust accordingly.Don and Mike did you guys have to rework your whole propbox for the drop in CSH? I spoke with some top runners in CSH and they said they did not make any prop changes.Is there anyone out there that can run at the max all the time with no risk.Do the 302's run at the max? Peeters,Perman,JMK,Kyle Lewis,Billy Allen, feel free to join in on the fun.Mike,I am not asking for your sympathy or aplogies for working hard?Once again this is not a personal attack.I am trying prevent needlessly burning up parts by inexperienced people we so desperately need to keep around to race with us.If the 4 time champ and A.J. (runs at 3/4) can run good at lower and in your words "makes little difference on course speed" what is the down side? Once again I ask why does it have to be so difficult?Please do not refer to some guy who ran without a restriction years ago.I need to sell this to the guys(and gals sorry) of today and the future.

[pav225]

No Worries

Ross,
I don't view it as a personal attack at all. All good questions!

We've been friends for years and will continue to be even if we disagree.

1/2" is the limit. There used to be no limit and we didn't burn up Yamatos. Why? Because people knew that they had to run a set-up that allowed motors to cool. On some boats that was much higher than 1/2" below the bottom. If a boat doesn't like to run at 1/2", drop it to 3/4". Just because the limit is 1/2" doesn't mean you have to run at that height.

So many other factors contribute to motors overheating beside just motor height. You could be at 3/4" and still have a problem. At the end of the day, you need to find where your motor runs best on your boat.

- Mike

[14-H]

Wish you were at Seattle last year to support my effort to lower the 20ssh class height! ****!

Did I miss your motion?

[hydroid]

20SSH height

Ross/Mike/others, great discussion, thx for sharing insight.
All of last season in 20, I ran restricted 302 at 3/4. My philosophy, I have much to learn about driving/props/starts/passing/winning/losing before going to 1/2, risking frying my engine. Many variables to dial in first.
That shld be message to newbies first couple of years. I also ran CSH, pulled the r-plate, same height. 2 classes, maximize value!
Wish this theme could have started/continues in 'Technical' forum as a reference. Ross has always been generous w advice.
Erik, TORC
PS: how about creating a technical reference on basic topics written by vets eg: prop heights, 302 carb/jet adjustment, hull lift, tuck in/out, checking for flat heads, when to re-ring,etc...the basics as reference guide,...SO's own wikipedia. We weren't all born w wrenches in hand, but willing to learn. Would HR be up for creating a permanent file/forum?...If 6-8 vets each took one small topic, submit to/for peer comment, the database could be built quickly over 2 years. This could be handed out to new club members when they first join the sport/buy new eqpmnt, a simple guide, and remain on HR as a reference. Not looking for the secrets, but lets help newbies get up the learning curve faster when they join, during the 'honeymoon period'.

[Aussie Steve]

I ran at 1/2 every race , only when I tucked to much to compensate for weather it would steam but 1/2 shim behind the mounting bracket to move the motor further back from transom and it would start to drink again . 302