SO class reduction proposal, next steps

[Raymond]

All for one and one for all

I also agree it is unsafe and unfair to the smaller Hot-Rod and Merc guys to be forced to race with the yamato. I have race 25ssr with a Hot-Rod for years and QUIT DOING IT because it is an very unsafe condition for smaller lighter boats. The yamatos chew up the race course and make it un raceable for the smaller boats.

The Biggest problem with are sport is that I do not get to VOTE on what happens to my class in stock. A group of people somewhere desides it for me and 90% of them don't even race my class or understand what the change will do to my class that I race. Most of the time the change comes from someone that does not even race my class.

The Best thing for are sport is to leave it ALONE why do wee need to change the rules every year? This just causes problems and piss people off and even make them quit racing!!!!!

Lets make one last rule! NO MORE RULES OR CHANGES AND LETS GO RACING!!!!

53W

Please don’t misread this; it’s not intended to be confrontational. It’s intended to understand your line of thinking and convey the idea that the solution is not going to be easy to come by.

Are you suggesting that every class should be in sole control of their own destiny? Are you suggesting that any one class can survive on its own? Are you suggesting that everything is A-ok in SO racing?

The solution to the problems being discussed eludes me but one thing I do know is that the solution IS going to tick someone off. It will not please everyone. Someone will be disgruntled and some may even make good on the threat of walking away. The solution must be a compromise of ideas and a sacrifice for some.

Someone has to make the hard decisions; I thank those that are working in that direction.

[csh12M]

61S Reply

Dean et al.,
It is unfair for you to misrepresent the speeds and supposed competitive speed advantage the 25SSH using only anecdotal data. I contend that you do this to rationalize your proposal which will undoubtedly marginalize and eventually eliminate the 25XS from stock racing . You must compare competition "lap" speeds NOT just "kilo" speeds. Here are the facts:
3/4 mile records for 25SSH, CSH, 20SSH are 57.3, 58.0, 56.1 respectively. Advantage CSH.
1 mile records for 25SSH, CSH, 20SSH are 60.8, 60.9, 58.0 respectively. Advantage CSH.
Kilo records for 25SSH, CSH, 20SSH are 76.2, 73.8, 71.5 respectively. Advantage 25SSH
Which of these "COMPETITION" records makes you draw the conclusion that the 25SSH should be "restricted" or have 15 pounds of lead added to slow it down?
This being said, I do NOT want to run with Yamato's, PERIOD ! They chew up the water and leave a trench in the turns that makes it unsafe for the 25SSH boats. The 25 SSH is stuck with a retarded gearfoot design that provides a lot of lift to the boat and no amount of burying the foot will correct. Leave our class alone, we'll get our numbers up. Or, clubs can just leave us off the Sanction ! Mike Racevoat 61-S

Mike I am not misrepresenting any speeds or basing it only on anecdotal evidence. I have raced CSH for several years and feel my speeds are on a National level. My best speeds are 68-69MPH. I have also raced Mark Miskeriks 25SSH for a season (I raced against you at Dayton), it was also National caliber and reached 70-71 consistently, with Zolkowski having more than us. This is not anecdotal. Anyway, if you read all the posts and replies you will see that I was suggesting combining 25SSH with 20SSH, which is what another plan suggested is not plausible. This was my only point and reasoning to bring it up.

Would you agree that trying to combine 25SSH speeds with 20SSH speeds is not possible?

Thanks for the input.

Dean
12M

[doc 35-0]

Dean, if you can not adjust the 25 speed with the C, how can they adjust the sidewinder with the 20?

[Howie Nichols]

25 vs Yamato

I have heard a few people talk about not wanting to run against the Yamato with the 25, I don't dispute that. Is this just in the C class or do you feel the 20SSH leave just as big of a hole for the 25's?

[DrRick34-0]

Dean--- I think it only makes sense to look at the 25XS in the 400CC (25mod) class. It would be good to look at times from Wakefield (2006) and Whitney Point (2008) for times. Both of those races had good fields of both classes racing very hard. I think that will tell you if you need to restrict the 25XS or not. I have a feeling you will need to at first to make the deal happen. Then could adjust from there. When you look solely at competition records, there can be differences in location (i.e. Dayton vs. Yelm). Again the 2006 and 2008 Nationals should be very good comparisons on the same weekend and same water. The 400CC Hydro needs some more entries,, and it looks like 25XS may need a home to help make the Stock plan make sense.

Rick MIller
34-0

[Racerkyle20]

Dean-

Why can't we just leave 25 alone in your proposal? It's a local class to begin with. region 10 hasn't ran it since before i started racing 15 years ago! And we are the second largest outboard club in the country...

I like your proposal, but feel the 25 is being thrown into the mix and does not fit anywhere. The boats are too small, motors too fast to slow down..etc.

Possible change: Make the proposal for national classes ABCD. If other clubs want to run 25 or whatever for local classes, so be it. Or they can take there equipment to mod. BTW for 25 drivers that didn't like my last sentence, the last time i watched a 25mod class run it was pretty darn fun to see!

[raceboat61-S]

25XS vs Yamato

Dean, et al.,
Please, you continue to compare top end straight-away speeds between the classes. The CSH makes up TIME in acceleration out of the turns. The lap times are about equal. Three consicutive laps decides the race, NOT the top end speed. Jeff Brewster whupped you at Springfield because he had one-mile straight-aways. Put the 2 of you head-to-head on a 1/2 mile sprint course and the results would be different.
No, the 20SSH vs the 25SSH is not a fair race, either. And to answer Howie's question, "Yes, the Yamato 80 has essentially the same gearfoot and it chews up the water, too". I don't think Yamato's should run with small boat classes and small 2-cylinder engines REGARDLESS of top end or lap time matches.
Doc Miller probably has the best solution as all of us that run the engines know they are about equal. Problem at the National meeting will be getting Stock to get Mod to agree. But you are gonna' lose entries. Mike T and I run both. Many of the 25XS guys on the East Coast don't have lakes that will allow open pipe motors (neither does Grass Lake for that matter).
Last question: "How many 20SSH drivers compete with the Yamato 80? How many 25SSR guys run an 80? My guess is that this engine is the one that ought to be moving towards the Mod classes to extend it's life.
Mike Raceboat61-S

[Howie Nichols]

Dean,
I like your proposal, but (and I am not bashing) I think that making A,B,C,D,25 classes is not a real problem. It seems like, as spoken multiple times here that 25XS is really a Region specific class. If we leave it alone Nationally it does not hurt the rest of the country. I know in Region 5 we schedule 25SSR at each race but do not schedule 25SSH that is our club choice to do so and the in Region 1 they can schedule 25SSH since they actually have some.

As for the Sidewinder 15, I have personally spoken to Ron & Ed Runne about eliminating it from their Inventory. They are not happy with that choice. Ron has more money tied up in 15 parts than most of us do in our entire trailer / rig(s). To eliminate the 15 at this point is really just a huge slap in the face since they have been operating under the premise that the motor is here to stay.

I tired to post a poll to see which of 4 options the members like best.

1- Dean's Proposal
2- Howie's Proposal
3- Nuch's Proposal
4- None, Leave Class Structure alone

For some reason the poll is not showing up in the forums yet. Seems like we need to have a straw vote or something so we can go to work (or at least have a beginning) to work on.

[csh12M]

Sidewinder impact...

Dean,
I like your proposal, but (and I am not bashing) I think that making A,B,C,D,25 classes is not a real problem. It seems like, as spoken multiple times here that 25XS is really a Region specific class. If we leave it alone Nationally it does not hurt the rest of the country. I know in Region 5 we schedule 25SSR at each race but do not schedule 25SSH that is our club choice to do so and the in Region 1 they can schedule 25SSH since they actually have some.

As for the Sidewinder 15, I have personally spoken to Ron & Ed Runne about eliminating it from their Inventory. They are not happy with that choice. Ron has more money tied up in 15 parts than most of us do in our entire trailer / rig(s). To eliminate the 15 at this point is really just a huge slap in the face since they have been operating under the premise that the motor is here to stay.

I tired to post a poll to see which of 4 options the members like best.

1- Dean's Proposal
2- Howie's Proposal
3- Nuch's Proposal
4- None, Leave Class Structure alone

For some reason the poll is not showing up in the forums yet. Seems like we need to have a straw vote or something so we can go to work (or at least have a beginning) to work on.

Howie, my response below is cut and pasted from the other post where George asked how/why I thought this proposal would grow the Sidewinder. My fingers are getting tired of typing and I have to do some "real" work sometimes

Here is why I think that it will ultimately grow the class and grow Sidewinder sales faster. Right now the 170lb driver has several choices in class to race. BSH/BSR or 20SSH or 25SSH/25SSR. The choice they seem to make most often is 20SSH and 25SSR the low cost alternatives to BSH and BSR. Why buy a Sidewinder to race locally when I can buy a Yamato at half the cost and race nationally. Explain how I can tell a "new name" racer to buy a Sidewinder and race in the BSH/BSR classes now as they exist.

If this proposal is supported by the membership the Sidewinder eventually could be the motor of choice in ASH/ASR and BSH/BSR 50% of our categories classes. They wont have the competition and confusion in class choice of 20SSH and 25SSH/25SSR. I do not think the Sidewinder folks see this big picture, but if they step back and look and think about this proposal they will see that it could/should accelerate the acceptance and growth within Stock Outboard.

Dean
12M

[Big Don]

I also like Dean proposal and think this is the right direction, it gives almost everyone a place to race and only eliminates possibly 1 engine.

One concern would be in the BSR class slowing the current Sidewinder 20CIMotor, even at 395lbs would probably not be enough. Might have to increase CC on the 20 to give the 12 CC engine a chance. I know you’re just giving ourselves a starting place.

[csh12M]

I also like Dean proposal and think this is the right direction, it gives almost everyone a place to race and only eliminates possibly 1 engine.

One concern would be in the BSR class slowing the current Sidewinder 20CIMotor, even at 395lbs would probably not be enough. Might have to increase CC on the 20 to give the 12 CC engine a chance. I know you’re just giving ourselves a starting place.

Yes, I think you are right also. Giving the CC back to the Hot Rod will help a bit, but I think adding a CC to the 20 Sidewinder is a good idea. I think it is going to need a CC added to it for the Hydro as well. It should be able to do better than 65, which is what a 20SSH goes. 1 CC should help the cooling on the Sidewinder also.

The BSR class is where I see some quick Sidewinder growth. I think a competitive new motor will really help the class.

Thanks,
Dean
12M

[61-W]

I would to bring to light a few facts about the current BSR class.

I would like to share a few facts about the current BSR class as we know it today. I have raced ASR, BSR AMR and FAR for many years and have built almost every engine I have ever raced. The idea of putting the 20 CI Sidewinder in with the current Hot Rod 15 CI and Sidewinder 15 CI engines and calling it BSR will not work.

1. In 2010 the average speed of a 15CI Hot Rod BSR was 55.5 MPH (GPS) +1 MPH or - 1 MPH. (Thru the years a few VERY rare 58.0 MPH engines existed)
2. In 2009 the 15CI Sidewinder rig of Greg Lyons at the nationals appeared to be running on the higher end of the 55.5 MPH average.
3. At the 2010 winter national, Bobby Austin with his 20 CI Sidewinder rig could almost run with the fastest 25SSR rigs with a very close estimated speed in the 61.0 MPH range. A nationals level unrestricted Mercury 25ssr will run 62-63 MPH (GPS).

This information alone shows we have somewhere in range of a 4.5MPH to 6.5MPH speed difference between the current Hot Rod 15 CI and the current 20 CI Sidewinder motor. The idea that a few tweeks on both of these engines would bring some kind of parity is not very realistic. Dave Little (manufacturer) designed the newest 15 CI Hot Rod cylinder head to be run at 13 cc. Anything less and the engine suffers in reliability. The leader of the Hot Rod tech committee strongly urges us to not lower the combustion chamber volume below 13 cc for the 15 CI Hot Rod. Lowering it (in the runabout) has been tested and proven to only help in acceleration with little or NO gain in top speed. I know, I tested it. We have NO data to date to have any idea if raising the combustion chamber volume will have any or no affect on the 20 CI engine. For all we know, if it truly runs hot, it may go faster.
Being an engine builder myself and having talked to other accomplished engine builders, the current BSR engines (Hot Rod 15 and Sidewinder 15) will not likely ever be able to run even close to the same top speeds as the 20 CI Sidewinders. It would be better to eliminate both current BSR engines, then to disgrace them by making them run against the new 20CI Sidewinder.

As a region 7 elected commissioner I feel all SO members and voters, should be aware of the facts for each issue enabling them to make informed decisions.

Jeff Scheffler 61-W
Region 7 Commissioner

[Big Don]

20 Sidewinder I think it is going to need a CC added to it for the Hydro as well. It should be able to do better than 65, which is what a 20SSH goes. 1 CC should help the cooling on the Sidewinder also.

Since no one has posted any data all I can go by is what I have heard….I heard that during testing the 20 Sidewinder at Jessup that it was going faster than 65.0. Also heard that during that same testing time there were Yamato 80's testing and that it was faster than all of them and one of them was Matt D.

[hshawwpba]

Future growth of APBA??

Future growth of APBA


RE December Vice President’s Corner article Propeller Magazine

I read Mark Wheeler's article in the December propeller magazine and found myself asking one simple question, are the current leaders of APBA really that disconnected from reality?
First let’s review his comments on the growth of the J classes over the past few years. This was accomplished by people that gave of their time and $$ to support activities that provided an avenue for NEW dads and kids to get involved by working together with boat racing people and businesses that focused on Kids not personal agendas or protectionism and profits APBA had no involvement but willing to take some credit it appears.
My hat is off to the many people and groups that have supported the building of boats, donation of engines, and safety equipment to get the “feet wet” for parents and kids that made a winter family project become a reality on the race course come spring. Many of the NEW MEMBERS created by the effort and support provided to dads, sons, and daughter who had a dream to race a boat but had no idea how to get involved became a reality. (And NEW MEMBERS AND CLASS GROWTH)
Let’s take a look inside APBA and do a deep dive into why the decline of members and sanctions has continued over the past years.
1. New equipment available = growth!
If you look at when growth truly happened in APBA it is when new engines and equipment are approved and available for new racers to purchase.
Case in point is the stock outboard division with the 25ss and 44xs engines, the Yamato racing engines, OMC J & A motors, Tohatsu D, and the new Merc. A/J motor. OPC 45ss motors have created good series racing and growth in the struggling OPC division. Inboard 1 Litre class due to the allowance of the 2 cycle Jet Ski engines.
The unfortunate common thread that continues to kill the growth of APBA is the continued lack of forward thinking by commissions that make policy and rules to protect the OLD EQUIPMENT and will not open up their eyes to new engines and ideas.
I sat in a few commission meeting at the past annual meetings over the past 30 years listening to proposals brought forward on new engines and ideas that were tabled or ignored in fear of making current engines obsolete and the worry about classes declining because old engines would possibly become non competitive. THIS IS EXCATLY WHAT IS WRONG WITH APBA!
Here is the perfect example of this thinking:
The mod commission will not allow a NEW smaller engine into D Mod class because it may obsolete a motor that has not been produced for many years. HELLO ???
If there is any hope of growth in the future it will take a 180* turn in thinking and process of governing body protectionism thought process.
All division in APBA should allow any engine currently produced and available to compete as long as it meets Cubic inch/CC size for the class, be it a 350 V8 or a 10HP outboard, regardless of manufacture. (Case in point look at the pro category, new Rossi and VRP engines have created good alternatives to race teams to have new equipment) and the new engines have not created mass exits of current racers with older motors.

Common sense should tell you there are too many classes a good example is the stock outboard division, where you can run the same engine in 3 or 4 different classes. Why not just have 1 class based on CU/CC of the engine/s.
Why are there 3 divisions of outboards ( Stock, Mod, Pro) and 3 different commissions, why not just “Outboard Racing Division” and 1 commission? “Seems to work for the Inboard classes”.
If APBA is to turn the ship and have a chance of recovery, the description of insanity needs to be addressed; DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND EXPECTING DIFFERENT RESUALTS simply does not work.
Great feel good article Mark, but come January let’s see if the people that can create change have the guts to make the hard decision’s that need to be made.
I am not holding my breath that a NEW vision will ever be part of the APBA process/operation.

Respectfully Howard Shaw
R 10 # 1487

[blueskyracer]

Very nice Howard. It is to bad so many folks look out for themselves and there little piece of the pie instead of the sport as a whole. Blinders are only good for horse racing and not boat racing.