If I Were King I'd....

[AndersonV21]

Completely missing the boat here....

Karting is the model we should be looking at but alot of comments here seem to think we are or could be NASCAR.

This has been discussed for years: Stock and Mod Outboard is not a "show" that can be packaged, produced, and sold. It is entry level grassroots racing. Just like Karting is.

The big difference here? Besides local races, they have Regional series when you get competitive locally, National when you are fast enough regionally. Something to work for with gratification along the way. Sorry guys, but National Hi-point in boat racing is a joke comparatively. National caliber guys running around to as many local races as possible destroying the local guys, running 2-3 races in one weekend just so the local hotshot can win.

Here are some karting comparisons:

You think our class structure is confusing? You should go to a kart event. I have been to several and still cant figure it out. But that doesnt matter because people don't care. They just want to see competitive racing, not a 4 boat parade.

Karting is just as messed up as outboard racing class wise. Just like us, different sanctioning body different rules. But WKA sprint racing really isn't that complicated to figure out, just too many classes.

Karts literally race from sunup to past sundown at my local track but they have a professional (paid) staff. That could easily happen in APBA with more members. I strongly feel our "all volounteer" model has got to change for the survival of the sport. That means more members. More members solves a lot of problems.

National race probably. But I have NEVER been to a local race that wasn't done by about 4ish. They crank out heats very quickly. One of the best kart tracks in the country is a member run and operated track. I see no reason why that is key to the survival of the sport. Just need to require "volunteer" work in order to race. If you don't "volunteer" when you are supposed to you lose points. Simple.

Karting is significantly more expensive that Stock or Modified Racing. A Stock (sealed motor) complete brand name kart new is 4k-6k but costs for expendables is significantly higher. New tires are required for every race (if you want to win) at 300-500 a set for example.

Not on the "grassroots" level you keep bringing up. Travel is much much less, and don't have to stay at a hotel etc. And btw, tires are only $200, and you can race 2-3 weekends on them at the local "grassroots" level.

Karting promotes a family friendly atmosphere.

Yeah, there is a place for everyone to race there. But I haven't gotten the welcome or help I have in boat racing. The national guys have no use for the lowly local guy. Boat racing is usually opposite.

If you want to race outboards and be part of a show or an event the PRO Division may be right for you.

Comments like this are downright uncalled for. You repeatedly make off-base, unproductive, ill-advised comments regarding PRO that are of no use to your point, or boat racing in general.


C'mon guys. There are plenty of guys who race boats who have raced or have experience with other "successful" grassroots motorsports. There are some pretty obvious similarities between those. Look at the good and the bad in each, pick out the potentially adaptable good ideas and run with it. I already know what I would do...

[Dave M]

Point Made

Great comment!
As a race director for 20 some years in a row, I know I can fix the volunteer help problem if drivers were willing to pay $50 to $60 entry fee per class. Nobody wants to do this. I've seen drivers decide to not run one of their three rigs because the entry fee was $40.00.

Another thought - If the new (or old) "King" cuts classes to make the race day shorter, I'm guessing the first two or three years of development will reduce my participant numbers. Fewer entries means I will get less entry fee and the club really struggles to get back our sanction and insurance money (which is due 45 days before the race). This won't work unless entry fees go up! Please Ray Rodda's earlier post in detail - Hi Ray!

I'm really open to new ideas, just can't make the numbers work without the club finding more money.

In case your wondering, my sponsor of 14 years (Wabash Technologies) was bought out by a hugh corporation and they decided to remove my local town race from their charity list. My race only lost $55 last year and I thought that was good considering the turnout. The Indiana Outboard Association probably doesn't think so. For statistics, my race consistantly pulled 100 to 110 entries per day year after year. Last year was around 66.

How about this aggreement, you drivers pay me an extra $30.00 per class per day and you can sit on your butt all weekend and leave for dinner or home when ever you want. - Won't happen.

Bob Koschka

Bob,

Great point. The costs are out of control. Clubs can't afford to put on the race. Between Insurance, Ambulance fees, etc. If APBA could lower some fixed costs we could better control some variable costs and offer more at the races.

Would you have lost money at your race had the insurance costs been half of what they were ? I am betting the club would have made a decent profit and been able to offer more to racers. With APBA being a brand sort to speak, why can't they use the buying power to negotiate with ambulance companies a lower rate per hours ? Leverage what they have sort to speak. Or is the problem that nothing is left to leverage...........

Once these fixed costs are under control, we can reduce the time a race takes in the day, using thought out combinations. Increase the number of boats on the water for the on-lookers and you will see their numbers increase, thus attracting money in the form of sponsors for an event. It is a real simple concept that has been around for a very long time.

There are a lot of options out there that have been mentioned on this site, but I am not seeing many explored.

One thing that gets me, noise attracts people. Boat racing needs to make a lot of noise. Loud and Proud. Any other racing body makes a lot of noises. NHRA, Nascar, Karts, Motocross, all of them make noise. It adds to the excitment. The trick is, to get that noise tuned to be pleasant to the ear. And race in places you are wanted. Eliminate events that complain about it, think quality over quantity. Go someplace the city bends over backwards. Make it mainstream event.

Nevermind, I know this is falling on deaf ears.

[B Walker]

Just an observation but how about working on getting the insurance and sanction fees lowered. If they were we might even join and do some APBA races but right now the prices are to steep for the smaller clubs like ours. That would free up a lot of expense money for other purposes.

The simple idea of opening up the insurance to a competitive bid a few years ago was met with threats of people getting lifetime bans from the sport and other abusive and heavy handed threats. There is no chance of the subject being re-visited anytime soon especially by the current leadership.

I fully expect the insurance underwriters to ride the sinking ship all the way to the bottom.

I bet my best CSR wheel Connie Payne cannot resist chiming in here now

The APBA membership voted for status quo leadership and thats what they will get.

BW

[doc 35-0]

If I could change a few rules, I'd require all drivers to wear some kind of neck restraint, a good helmet brace cost just fourty dollars, and it just make sense, hitting the water at our speeds can cause life threating damage. I would require all boats to carry ping pong paddles and require you to get off the course, if your propeller quites turning. How many races are stopped because a boat is on the course and is in harms way.

[PRO-MOTIONRACING]

[QUOTE=ricochet112;171060] Seriously; are the racers at drags and moto events asked to help out to put on the event"

YES! Bramerton Raceway is the Handlers Car Club and Mudslingers is a club also.

Wouldn't you be willing to stay a little later if we could run (Mercury) 25XSH

[blueskyracer]

Just an observation but how about working on getting the insurance and sanction fees lowered. If they were we might even join and do some APBA races but right now the prices are to steep for the smaller clubs like ours. That would free up a lot of expense money for other purposes.

[94H]

But, do you have to show up early to help set up, volunteer for an official duty during the race, then stay late to help teardown, and drive home in the dark in the summer? Seriously; are the racers at drags and moto events asked to help out to put on the event?

I agree with you, but I'm just sayin'...this goes back to my first comment; APBA will never attract the masses as long as we're a membership run volunteer) organization.

Great comment!
As a race director for 20 some years in a row, I know I can fix the volunteer help problem if drivers were willing to pay $50 to $60 entry fee per class. Nobody wants to do this. I've seen drivers decide to not run one of their three rigs because the entry fee was $40.00.

Another thought - If the new (or old) "King" cuts classes to make the race day shorter, I'm guessing the first two or three years of development will reduce my participant numbers. Fewer entries means I will get less entry fee and the club really struggles to get back our sanction and insurance money (which is due 45 days before the race). This won't work unless entry fees go up! Please Ray Rodda's earlier post in detail - Hi Ray!

I'm really open to new ideas, just can't make the numbers work without the club finding more money.

In case your wondering, my sponsor of 14 years (Wabash Technologies) was bought out by a hugh corporation and they decided to remove my local town race from their charity list. My race only lost $55 last year and I thought that was good considering the turnout. The Indiana Outboard Association probably doesn't think so. For statistics, my race consistantly pulled 100 to 110 entries per day year after year. Last year was around 66.

How about this aggreement, you drivers pay me an extra $30.00 per class per day and you can sit on your butt all weekend and leave for dinner or home when ever you want. - Won't happen.

Bob Koschka

[B Walker]

Karting is the model we should be looking at but alot of comments here seem to think we are or could be NASCAR.

This has been discussed for years: Stock and Mod Outboard is not a "show" that can be packaged, produced, and sold. It is entry level grassroots racing. Just like Karting is.

Here are some karting comparisons:

You think our class structure is confusing? You should go to a kart event. I have been to several and still cant figure it out. But that doesnt matter because people don't care. They just want to see competitive racing, not a 4 boat parade.

Karts literally race from sunup to past sundown at my local track but they have a professional (paid) staff. That could easily happen in APBA with more members. I strongly feel our "all volounteer" model has got to change for the survival of the sport. That means more members. More members solves a lot of problems.

Karting is significantly more expensive that Stock or Modified Racing. A Stock (sealed motor) complete brand name kart new is 4k-6k but costs for expendables is significantly higher. New tires are required for every race (if you want to win) at 300-500 a set for example.

Karting promotes a family friendly atmosphere.

There are other similarities, thats just off the top of my head.

If you want to race outboards and be part of a show or an event the PRO Division may be right for you.

BW

[RLR]

cost effective

I have watched with interest the comments made in this post and the frustration level seems to be pretty high with both APBA and the length of time that a program runs.(ie-too many classes).

First let me say these are my personal opinions and not of the officers of USTS.

I can tell you that the Title Series certainly has faced all of the above, has looked at the issues and made what I am sure were some painful decisions for some, but for the betterment of the Pro division. There are many classes that could be run under the USTS banner, and in fact almost every year one group or another makes a run at expanding the classes run. OSY, Novice, RB, 175 all come to mind and I know that there are more.

Each time we looked at what entries might increase, what the time frame it would add to the overall program, and made a decision on what we thought was best for a 4 hour program. Did some leave the Pro division and went racing somewhere else, without doubt. But the program needs to be where you start on offering a sponsor something that they can make money with.

Rather than looking at this as a two single day program we looked at it as a two day race period. Now what about the entry problem for the dollars needed to make this work. Are our entries higher than others? Do not know for sure, but what I do know is that we run a program of testing on Friday for 6-8 hours, usually a couple of hours of time Saturday, and depending on the church issues, a little time on Sunday. All of that adds up to boat time for our drivers, name one of us who has not just taken an adreniline rush for the fun of it. With that comes the rub, 3 heats of racing for less than 12, more than 12 at least 2 heats guranteed. Now lets get back to the entry dollars. With that much boat time, 2 heats of racing for sure, 3 hopefully, can you charge a little more to fewer classes? I think so.

Do we race in places where we do not get a big crowd, sure. Entry pays for those, do we get a huge crowd at a couple of sites, sure. Depue and thanks to our NE guys, we had one hell of a race at Hartford, Ct this year with the Recapture folks. Crowd was over 8k on Saturday and double that on Sunday according to our sponsor. We give each of those sponsors something that they can sink their teeth into and gives a payback to both groups.

I agree that we may need to race on some water that is not like glass to get the big crowds, but until we can offer a sponsor a consice, well run, friendly racing organization, we will always be the back yard sport. And belive me I enjoy every race I go to, and I go to others besides USTS races, just some better than others. So being a back yard sport does not mean anything, but I get to know more people on a personal basis which is why I have stayed with racing as long as I have.

Ray

[ricochet112]

OK, now let's look at shortening our race day. First off while we would all love to show up late, race our class, leave early, and get home in time to mow the yard.

Aint gonna happen!.

More classes equals more winners and no one wants to give up there class and or chance to do well.

Let's look at how others do it.

Local drag races I attend three tracks on a regular basis arrive at 7:30 at the latest or by the time you get through tech you might miss the first round of ETs. First pass 9:20 (over in 10.34 seconds) second pass at 10:45 drivers meeting at noon first round at 1:15. A loss puts you on the trailer going home to mow the yard (great if that's what you want) a win puts your second round after 3:00. If you make the final 16 you are headed home about 7:00 and if you make the final round you will be driving home in the dark even in mid summer.
Local motocross race. Arrive 7:30 riders meeting 8:30 racing at 9:00 one practice round 3 laps, heat race at 1:00 3 laps, final 4 laps hopefully before dark this time of year. 33 classes (motos) last weekend.

A good boat race takes all day a great boat race has 6 or more boats per class.

Also I do agree we should run select classes at peak spectator hours at some venues.

But, do you have to show up early to help set up, volunteer for an official duty during the race, then stay late to help teardown, and drive home in the dark in the summer? Seriously; are the racers at drags and moto events asked to help out to put on the event?

I agree with you, but I'm just sayin'...this goes back to my first comment; APBA will never attract the masses as long as we're a membership run volunteer) organization.

[PRO-MOTIONRACING]

OK, now let's look at shortening our race day. First off while we would all love to show up late, race our class, leave early, and get home in time to mow the yard.

Aint gonna happen!.

More classes equals more winners and no one wants to give up there class and or chance to do well.

Let's look at how others do it.

Local drag races I attend three tracks on a regular basis arrive at 7:30 at the latest or by the time you get through tech you might miss the first round of ETs. First pass 9:20 (over in 10.34 seconds) second pass at 10:45 drivers meeting at noon first round at 1:15. A loss puts you on the trailer going home to mow the yard (great if that's what you want) a win puts your second round after 3:00. If you make the final 16 you are headed home about 7:00 and if you make the final round you will be driving home in the dark even in mid summer.
Local motocross race. Arrive 7:30 riders meeting 8:30 racing at 9:00 one practice round 3 laps, heat race at 1:00 3 laps, final 4 laps hopefully before dark this time of year. 33 classes (motos) last weekend.

A good boat race takes all day a great boat race has 6 or more boats per class.

Also I do agree we should run select classes at peak spectator hours at some venues.

[hshawwpba]

+1 Howard. We as well I do not believe have ever met, but you put it perfectly, and I wholeheartedly agree with your comments.

Based on past experience I doubt you will be listened to, and all who love this sport would probably be better off if APBA just goes ahead and implodes. At least there would be a clean slate to start from and lessons to be learned from the wreckage.

Thanks for your comments, we have met I ran in the Pro Divison for years and deck rider for Howard Anderson R12 plus ran 350CC and 700CC hydro and 1100 Runabout, Depue, IL. Winnona, and many national meetings around the country but due to present leaders (I use leaders term loosly) I refuse to waste time and money attending anymore APBA national meetings under this president and his band of marymen!

[DrRick34-0]

Greg---you are very correct. I have run about 230 heats in the last 2 years and have not posted anything. Been around racing for 41 Years in multiple organizations and should have something wise to add. So here it goes:::::::

Less classes and and a race day that lasts no longer than a football game would be ideal. Less classes means less Winners and that defies the little league principle that my great friend Dudley Malone states dominates our society today. (Everyone gets a trophy). The most Important item to me is the accessibility of new equipment. You need to be able to buy new stuff very easy. That includes the entire package. I know that is challenging to do in a small sport. If APBA could invest in complete rigs in different regions that was at the races would be a big help. When a guy could write a check and take it home and then race the next weekend would help racing in my opinion. I love the clock start, but from a spectator standpoint the Lemans start is much more exciting and understandable. The idea of some man made stadium style lakes is obviously a great idea, but need the money to make it happen. Just some thoughts and more to come.....

P.S. Dean--I did like your post about looking thru the different eyes. You had some great truth's. The new eyes are what we need to look at to get the sport growing, as well as encouraging current racers to race more!!!

[Haüenstein]

312 dollars in 1976 is worth just under 1200 dollars in todays money due to inflation.

Similarly, a $34 APBA membership in 1963 would cost $243.01 in today's money (source: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl).

On another note, I think the "B Main" heat concept is pretty cool and would like to think we can work with that. Something that would work for races that don't have elims, but have a good field.

[B Walker]

I gave up on this whole thing long ago, but I couldn't resist adding to Ron's/Matt's post on cost. That same Y80 Ron sold 30 years ago will be posted on this forum for $1000+.
Laughable..........It costs 3X more to buy the same motor today. Not a new"er" one. The SAME EXACT ONE, still un-blueprinted, ran hard and put away wet.

312 dollars in 1976 is worth just under 1200 dollars in todays money due to inflation.

http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm

I have seen plenty of 80's sold for under 1200 on HR so a case could be made that the cost of entry level racing is actually lower today as a y-80 bought today for around 1200 is likely blueprinted, foot is templated, and kill switch is wired.

The least expensive motor currently available new or reconditioned that is legal in the Stock Outboard Division is the Y-302 at around 2200.

In 1976 dollars that would have been 573 dollars. Not bad.

BW