If I Were King I'd....

[blueskyracer]

I would ask HR.net to shut this thread down, it is not doing anyone any good. I would also ask them if it is possible to have a forum on HR.net that is for debating ideas - one that the general public would not see and keep the portal open for PROMOTING the sport and all of the sanctioning bodies and not bashing them everyday (bashing one anyways). I think we as a group need to be WAY more conscious of the image were are presenting to the public and it needs to start here on this site.

Every year we have threads like this one for all to see and then we wonder why people are'nt excited about racing with us.

If folks on our web site cannot post in a constructive way then how do you expect them to be any better at a national meeting. This is the whole reason nothing gets changed for the better. And starting a new thread part 2 is.....well need I say more!!!!

[bill van steenwyk]

RE: Asking HR to shut this thread down

Bill Pavlik:

I understand your concerns regards the airing of what many would deem "dirty laundry" on this thread, BUT have you ever considered the fact that APBA and a majority of its leaders, HARDLY EVER seem to consider what is posted here by a lot of racing members of enough importance to even try to answer or justify decisions that have been made or are now being considered? The silence by most of them is deafening!! (except for Eddie of course, and he has a different agenda)

The average racing member, even though the organization is supposed to be a membership driven one, really does not have much of an opportunity to interact with the folks that propose the rules they get to vote on. About the only place a member can have his voice heard is at the annual meeting, and as one who has attended MANY, I can tell you that they only add insult to injury when they charge a member the amount they do to just sit in on a commission meeting, and not attend any of the other functions. It puts money in APBA's treasury, but at what cost? Add to that the cost of getting there, time off from work if they have an employer that will stand for it, all the other frustrations that come from seeing the costs for sanctions and insurance continue to escalate without any real good explanation, and it should be very understandable why folks frustration level is at an all time high.

When folks feel they are not being listened to with legitimate complaints, and add to that the anger when they see ego driven decisions being made for them that they strongly disagree with, and it is no wonder you see what you do here or on any other site where the average guy feels like he might finally be able to have a voice, no matter the lack of reply. I would suggest that the frustration level will only increase, and more posts like these will be put up, till the leaders of APBA finally realize that for better or worse, this is a member driven organization, and ignoring the members is done at great risk to the survival of it.

As mentioned in the first paragraph, I completely understand your point, but I think you are talking to the wrong group. I see very few complaints about fellow racers, most are about the sanctioning body. Maybe if the "leaders" paid more attention, there would be less criticism. It has been my life experience, to this point anyway, you lose way more by trying to silence folks, than by trying to listen to and work with them.

[Ron Hill]

Put Your Head in the Sand, and SHOOT the Messengers!

I would ask HR.net to shut this thread down, it is not doing anyone any good. I would also ask them if it is possible to have a forum on HR.net that is for debating ideas - one that the general public would not see and keep the portal open for PROMOTING the sport and all of the sanctioning bodies and not bashing them everyday (bashing one anyways). I think we as a group need to be WAY more conscious of the image were are presenting to the public and it needs to start here on this site.

Every year we have threads like this one for all to see and then we wonder why people are'nt excited about racing with us.

Yulp, just like we've always done things for 50 years!!!! The truth and open forum can't be good!!!!

[Ron Hill]

A Question Or Two...

Back the days of my childhood (the 90's) there were a few races in which the 45's or some of the bigger offshore guys would come and race with us. This would either be on the same body of water or a larger body close by. This attracted a much larger amount of spectators and more interest in the sport. Also, it drew a larger amount of boat racers= more money flowing into the community= potential sponsors were more likely to give money to help fund the races, or get involved first hand and the events were larger. When the 45's and offshore guys stopped coming the events suffered, sponsorship suffered and we all know that story. What would it take to make this happen again? Is it the location? Money? Disagreements between the categories?

Just thinking out loud, but I think this is also a factor in how they draw larger crowds and TV crews in Europe.

When you sit in your boat, kneel I guess. Can you start the engine your self?


What happened to your hydro when you run wide open in a 6 to 8 in chop with 1 to 2 foot ground swells????

Isleton, California is on the Sacramento Delta. The water is like I just described. They have had races there for the last two years. They paid $250 a boat tow money, they paid around a $1,000 per class prize money....They ran three class, Cracker Box, Sport C and 45. This year they are adding COR 2.0.

The group that put this race on has made money both years, Budweiser Distributor pays to have the program printed. In was, it is much like Top of Michigan....Once a year race. Not all day.......It is a Happening..

I had not been to a Stock Nationals since 1979, when I went to Whitney Point , NY. The course was so big, I couldn't see anything thing really, and they raced from sun up to sun down, after one day, I wished I'd gone to Needles or anywhere...25 Runabout, C Runabout, AXS, Runabout B. Runabout....They don't look like runabout, but they do all look the same...Not to mention the unsportsman like conduct I saw toward J. Michael Kelly, probably the best driver of this century!

I have not been back to a Stock Nationals, and don't plan to go!

[Ron Hill]

Open Class

My thoughts on having National Level classes:

-Pick 5-6 races in the east, 5-6 in the west deemed to National Level races.
-Hi-points are accumulated based on results in these events along with Nat's, winter nats ONLY.
-To continue local participation any participation in a local race is awarded a flat say 150 points assuming a legal start. 10 max?
-No other category local races can be held on these race dates in the given half of the country.
-3 heat format or 4 heat format with 1 throwout heat.
-Different course layouts for each. Throw in some long, some short, some tri-oval etc.
-Running these x number of these events makes you a "National Driver" i.e. not eligible for local club series allowing the new/local guy to gain some gratification

It seemed that when we raced BMX, we could run "OPEN" Class and not get points. Because in BMX once you leave Novice or Intermediate, and become an Expert, you can't go back....So, many raced "OPEN" to improve their skills. I always thought you should start at Nocice again with your birthday....But they didn't listen to me except the over 40 class!

National Driver could race Club races, with three NEW RULES...They add 25 pounds, and get not Local Points. APBA establlish a CHEAP SANCTION for 4 classes, or 12 heats...Cheap meaning COST OF INSURANCE ONLY! This concept would mean APBA would be "BUYING" into to it also....

Has Mark Weber or Mark Wheeler, or Ernie Dawe of Fred Hauesntein posted on this thread???? Ernie is busy building boats. Freddy has been off Qatar...both Marks are probably busy! It appears to me, that once you become a BOD your life is complete, nothing else needs to be done! Everything is BUNNY, DUCKY and KITTY!

YES, I'm calling ALL THE APBA BOD OUT HERE!!!! Send me a snail mail and I'll post it for you!

[BP125V]

If I were King for today

I would ask HR.net to shut this thread down, it is not doing anyone any good. I would also ask them if it is possible to have a forum on HR.net that is for debating ideas - one that the general public would not see and keep the portal open for PROMOTING the sport and all of the sanctioning bodies and not bashing them everyday (bashing one anyways). I think we as a group need to be WAY more conscious of the image were are presenting to the public and it needs to start here on this site.

Every year we have threads like this one for all to see and then we wonder why people are'nt excited about racing with us.

[spunky64w]

Mayhaps?

Back the days of my childhood (the 90's) there were a few races in which the 45's or some of the bigger offshore guys would come and race with us. This would either be on the same body of water or a larger body close by. This attracted a much larger amount of spectators and more interest in the sport. Also, it drew a larger amount of boat racers= more money flowing into the community= potential sponsors were more likely to give money to help fund the races, or get involved first hand and the events were larger. When the 45's and offshore guys stopped coming the events suffered, sponsorship suffered and we all know that story. What would it take to make this happen again? Is it the location? Money? Disagreements between the categories?

Just thinking out loud, but I think this is also a factor in how they draw larger crowds and TV crews in Europe.

[mdaspit]

Meaningless details! My earlier post about lack of club money to run a race was not meaningless.

Bob Koschka

No, I don't think that's what he means, its just that the lack of club money is not the real problem, it is a symptom of a much larger problem.

Let me take a whack at it.

The problem with SO Racing is that we have too many classes and not enough boats in them. So, as a result we have a weekend race program that is too long and too boring. That results in a product that is very difficult to "sell" to sponsors and spectators alike, which prevents organic promotion of race events. Poor spectator turnout breeds poor sponsor interest, which breeds poor spectator turnout etc. etc.

Add to this, a racing membership that is fully invested in their classes and if cuts are made to the numbers of legal classes, they may quit racing alltogether rather than junk their equipment and invest in new.
Resulting in a conundrum of the fix being worse than the disease.

Add to this, racers will be racers, and everytime a new class intended for novice racers is started, which hopefully will attract new interest to the sport, which gives new drivers a fair chance of being competitive, the rules eventually change, and the class becomes dominated by really "fast guys", and too difficult for new drivers to step into and be competitive "right out of the box." Which makes it very difficult to attract new interest in the sport. Or, at least makes it very difficult to keep new drivers involved long term.

Add to this a changing society whos interest appears to not be inclined toward the sport (for many reasons), changing national personality,equipment not readily available, Too much effort involved in getting started, lack of awareness, poor economy, fear of investing in a dying sport...

Add to this a National climate that is faux "environmentally concerned" and is disallowing racing on their lakes and rivers, resulting in declining venues and is doing serious damage to race promotion in certain areas that no longer have critical mass.

Add to this, a Sanctioning body that does not have the faith and confidence of their membership in that they really give a dam%.

Add to this, a membership base made up of iconoclasts, and very strong- willed individuals who are not "easily managed."

I'm sure i'm missing something.

Look I'm not trying to be a jerk, but these are all legitimate problems, and if you have the will to attack them, then I think you have to pick and choose.

Some may be do-able some not.

I'm just saying.

[Boatracer4fun]

I don't want to go too off topic but you have a couple of errors in your post. Neck restaints are available at Security Race Products that are used in Stock Mod and PRO, they are not the HANS type. They now have the attatching point made into the life jacket, no need for a body strap. Scroll to botton of page.
http://www.securityrace.com/drivereq...estraints.html

Way too many variables about a driver in the water to generalize about it.

What would I do if I were King;
UIM rules, jetty starts, 8-10 classes, paid officials.

No on the jetty starts. Half off the argument is spectators dont understand how the clock works. Well have your announcer explain how it works. Why have all diffrent rules. Stock uses clock, Inboard used clock, H-1 uses clock. No need for change. No need in re inventing the wheel.

[jtower3941]

Sunday race schedule of national classes

Brad did not want to combine any classes unless less than 5 boats on Sat. schedlule.

Sunday:

AM Schedule for those classes that had 5 or more boats.

* *AXR they had 7 boats.
* *ASR they had 8 boats
ASH they had 6 boats
Mod classes that have 5 or more boats.
** Next year have oppertunity to move up to national class.
Those that not move up to national class will run club schedule.


National race schedule

CSR elim 1
BSR elim 1
CSR elim 2
BSR elim 2

CSR final heat 1
BSR final 1 heat
CSR final 2 heat
BSR final 2 heat

5 lap local race

20 SSH elim 1
CSH elim 1
20 SSH elim 2
CSH elim 2

20 SSH Final heat 1
CSH final heat 1
20 SSH Final 2 heat
CSH final heat 2

Just example of made up made up classes.

I think 23 heats of racing on Sunday, not counting Mod classes
The race chairman and scores can put the schedule together
in what ever heat/final is best.

[94H]

Mark, once again, your looking at the big picture and the rest of us are hashing out meaningless details. Well done.

There is no consensus on what Stock Outboard even is so how can we possibly work towards any goals? Some see a marketable action sport, others see a grassroots family focused motorsport.

There is no proactive planning of any sort, just re-active rules changes to address whatever areas of concern the drivers had in the last year.

What your proposing is incrementalism. Fix what you can as you have the votes and consensus built to make changes.

Here are two things do-able now and would address long term thinking.

Re-form the Steering Committee to make plans more than 1 year at a time and keep incoming leadership on some kind of a track.

Form a Membership Committee tasked to stop the 35 year decline in membership.

Big picture stuff. Keep us focused Mark!

BW

Meaningless details! My earlier post about lack of club money to run a race was not meaningless.

If the suggestion from Ed was to have our new "Kings" propose forward thinking ideas, and most of the discussion is about reorganization and class cutting, please explain how this helps our race directors pay for their races next year. This is big picture stuff to me and what a surprise if we lose another race site before everyone elses "big picture" stuff kicks in. We have to reduce the costs to run a race or we'll continue to lose race sites and racers.

Making new equipment available to new members will not grow at the rate we'll lose existing racers. Lets be smart and don't forget who's keeping us alive right now. Let's go slow and steady.

Here's an interesting idea,
We sell APBA to outside investors and see how quickly the new management will react to all the meaningless details. Funny how things change when there's personal money invested.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Bob Koschka

[B Walker]

Wow, I can not even figure out what the hell is going on here anymore.

Ed H. put this thread on here to make a point, and he has made it in spades as far as I'm concerned.

It goes something like this..."Allright guys, if you're unhappy with the way things are going, and you think it can be done better, then what would you do if you were running things?"

I think the verdict is in, because what I am seeing here is
disfunction.

How is someone supposed to manage this?... chaos.

This problem is too big... and to try and solve it, it has to be broken down into actionable pieces.

I may be new to boat racing, but I'm not new to life.

This is like a bad marriage.

And if you want to save it, then it will have to be one step at a time, solve one smaller problem at a time, and then move on to another.

Then, maybe after a few years we can look back and see some result...

But not like this.

Mark, once again, your looking at the big picture and the rest of us are hashing out meaningless details. Well done.

There is no consensus on what Stock Outboard even is so how can we possibly work towards any goals? Some see a marketable action sport, others see a grassroots family focused motorsport.

There is no proactive planning of any sort, just re-active rules changes to address whatever areas of concern the drivers had in the last year.

What your proposing is incrementalism. Fix what you can as you have the votes and consensus built to make changes.

Here are two things do-able now and would address long term thinking.

Re-form the Steering Committee to make plans more than 1 year at a time and keep incoming leadership on some kind of a track.

Form a Membership Committee tasked to stop the 35 year decline in membership.

Big picture stuff. Keep us focused Mark!

BW

[AndersonV21]

National classes...

My thoughts on having National Level classes:

-Pick 5-6 races in the east, 5-6 in the west deemed to National Level races.
-Hi-points are accumulated based on results in these events along with Nat's, winter nats ONLY.
-To continue local participation any participation in a local race is awarded a flat say 150 points assuming a legal start. 10 max?
-No other category local races can be held on these race dates in the given half of the country.
-3 heat format or 4 heat format with 1 throwout heat.
-Different course layouts for each. Throw in some long, some short, some tri-oval etc.
-Running these x number of these events makes you a "National Driver" i.e. not eligible for local club series allowing the new/local guy to gain some gratification

[B Walker]

Jim said

Sat. Race schedule: All classes, Club racing, 2 heats or 1 elims. and 1 final or 3 heat formatt per class unless elims. Less than 5 boat will be conbined with another class. National classes will run also.

All this is currently possible within the current rules now and only a few places have even tried it.

Have SORC/APBA create two runabout and two hydro national classes, now, with the eye to expand in years to come.

This too can be done at the club level but I can only imagine the howls of protest from drivers that have to chose between multiple rigs that fit into the same grouping. Actually those howls of protest would not be heard over the shrieking from the judges stand from the scoring nightmare. Then there is the hit in revenue the club will take because people that had to choose between multiple rigs in the same grouping wont be paying as much in entry fees.

I dont think multiple classes will be able to be run at the same time until an electronic scoring system is adopted.

BW

[ricochet112]

Good idea, but not practical in a kneeler. Would be very tough driving the boat with a head restraint. Paddles are required in PRO.

At most local races, a driver in the water will most likely black flag that heat. At big events, if the driver signals he/she is okay, most of the time i have seen the race will continue.

I don't want to go too off topic but you have a couple of errors in your post. Neck restaints are available at Security Race Products that are used in Stock Mod and PRO, they are not the HANS type. They now have the attatching point made into the life jacket, no need for a body strap. Scroll to botton of page.
http://www.securityrace.com/drivereq...estraints.html

Way too many variables about a driver in the water to generalize about it.

What would I do if I were King;
UIM rules, jetty starts, 8-10 classes, paid officials.