APBA logo

[Dave M]

Suggestion For Crown

Perhaps you should seek out all the members that have quit and really, truly interview them in person and determine the reasons they quit. Then and only then will you be able to forge a way to grow. Until then, you are just spending money for the sake of spending money. New logos, new name, new website, it is all semantics until you identify the REASON people quit. And once you do indentify the reason, do EVERYTHING in your power to eliminate those reasons from the current system. It has been broke for 40 years. You have a lot of people to talk too. Probably more that have quit than is currently in the membership.

[Big Don]

Dave, I agree there definitely should be a survey anytime someone does not renew their membership.

I’ll just want to refresh everyone memory of what you get when you do them. The results are all over the board. People quit for many reasons. Attached is the survey they did in 1993, it’s all over the place and it depends on their length of racing as to why they quit.

I asked a person years ago why they quit back in the late 80’s. Their answer…..He said, Your Dad, meaning my dad, Don Sr. I was so confused because Don would do anything to put someone in a boat. I asked what he did that caused them to quit. The persons answer was, Don had thrown them out at a race while refereeing. I asked for what. He said, for a driving infraction. I don’t remember the person name but I’ll never forget the conversation.

1993 was a long time ago and things change, I think we will find there are many more reasons now. But I still think it will show that the reasons will be all over the board.

[Dave M]

Polls

Don,

Polls are not the right way to do it in my opinion. Look how some of the polls have went on here...... A Poll gives someone a chance to simply pick something so they can get it done, a mindless task if you will. To read body language to determine if it is genuine, it needs to be done in person. How inflammed is the person ? Is it a real reason ? Or are they embarassed to tell you they couldn't afford it ? In the real world at most large businesses if they have someone quit, they conduct an exit interview. This gives the company a chance to identify why an individual does not want to work for them any longer. They get true data, and not a Poll.

Look at the guy you referenced, he told you a real reason why he quit. Read more into it than he was pissed at your Dad. Your Dad was one of the most fair referees I have known, my Dad thought so too. Perhaps the real reason the guy was pissed was because of some stupid rule. Height Rule ? Painted his gearbox the wrong color ? Decals on the cowling were torn ? Numbers the wrong height and border ? Overlap rule was not as established ? Changed lanes in the chute to avoid crashing and got DQ'ed ?

I am not saying any or all of those are stupid rules. Sometimes one needs to simply apply common sense. And an official is not allowed to use it, they must use the rule book.

[Ron Hill]

Exit polls

There was a racer, who came with his two kids, and step son. He got to Bakersfield about 10 A.M. on Saturday and they wouldn't let him race because he was late.

I ran into this guy a few years back. His kids were long grown. He said they's raced moto cross. He said, it was closer to home, you showed up you raced, no hassels.

He said if ONE person would have even acted that he and his kids were important, they probably would have kept racing.

He says, you work to get ready, you drive all night......maybe have a trailer flat and when you get there. Sometimes, it is just the last straw.

We were driving to Chowchilla. I was sleeping in the front seat, Chad and his wife were sleeping in the back seat. Pat Bowman was driving. 2:00 A.M. Pat says, "Hey we just passed the Dawes, they were stopped along side the road..."

I said, "Did they wave and anything? Did they look like they needed help?" Pat said, "I couldn't tell." I said, "Well the only thing we have a spare trailer tire." Chad wakes up and tries to call Steven on his cell. No answer.

Next morning about 9:30 Steven and Ernie come in late. All they had been up all night, ALL they needed was a SPARE TRAILER tire. We gave them ours for the trip home. To some, driving all night with tire troubles could be the last straw.

Steven got to race. We're still friends.....Ernie has never quit. I have quit more times than most people have raced!

APBA should give $25 MEMBERSHIP DISCOUNTS TO MENTORS. These mentors would be evaluated at the end of the year. If they did a good job, give them the $25 discount again.

[Original Looper 1]

Who's behind the poll?

Amen, Dave!

Good points, Ron.

We all know that if you have enough $$, you can get any poll outcomes that you desire.


Regards,

Paul

[tcf284]

There are several reasons I can think of,that has this sport declining ,first;we very seldom can get venues of the same place on the same weekend of each year, like having annual events I went to the pro nats in 2010 the place was packed with spectators and so on, but like here in fl 2011= no races 2010=2 races 2009=no races,a 2nd reason is; it is very hard to get media coverage are races most times occur in secluded areas due noise, we cant get many races in highly visible locations ,marketing is killing us,we dont have much of a marketing plan ,and i agree with dunlap about the whole powerboat concept, powerboat means any boat that has a motor in it. We need to put racing in the logo somehowand maybe considermore advertising,here fl the moster truck come to town and tons of commercials hit the airwaves,we've got the stock winternationals coming here in march maybe we should try to make it annually and advertise it .maybe work on building software for video games it could get younger people a desire to wanna see it closer and create some interest.I've got a apba logo on my car and people have no clue what apba is it just has 4 letters that could amount to a bunch of things ,just saying

[Big Don]

Dave, could not agree more with the survey. They need to be open ended and not steer towards the answer. My only point was to show how all over the board the answers will be. Hopefully we would see patterns, then we know what to work on.

Thanks for the kind words about Don. That jerk threw me out more times than I can remember. I think at Grand Rapids when I was 16 he could have thrown me out three times in one heat. I kept chopping TJ in my BSH. He called me up to the judges stand and told me from now on I was fixing my own boat repairs and I had better go apologize to TJ.

[Jack Stotts]

I, in no way intend to hi-jack this thread but can not resist commenting about Don Allen. Don was one of the finest persons I have had the opportunity to meet whether it be in boat racing or anywhere else. He was truely a great guy who was willing to step forward and do what ever it took to get the job done. In Pineville, one weekend, he spent the better part of two days standing out on an extended plantform tending to a touchy starting clock. As a referee he was on point at all times. I'm a better person for having known Don Allen. Jack

[Jeff5P]

Don Allen

Jack, I have no problem hi-jacking a thread to talk about Don Allen.

He was one of the greatest things about APBA and boat racing. If he knew you wanted to race, he'd make it happen!! And he was perhaps the best official I know. One of the first things he taught me was "everyone gets a fair call. But you're more strict with your own family so everyone else will know they got a fair call". Possibly with another ref, Donnie might have gotten away with a warning. But everyone there knew Don made the right call.

If more of us were like Don Allen, there'd be a lot more people working to make boat racing better and a lot less whining.

And now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Mary Williams

[mdaspit]

Retired a handfull of years ago as Exec. Creative Director for one of the largest world-wide advertising agencies.

Worked in 12 different cities, in 7 different countries on blue chips- Exxon, Coca-Cola, Boeing, Club Med, Buick/GM, Goodyear, Schick, Nestle, etc. etc.

Worked on more corporate identity programs, (Logos) than I care to remember. They can go one of two ways in my opinion...

1. Decoration- where due consideration of the importance of an organization's identity gets overshadowed by the desire of (usually) some junior graphic designer's whim of what's cool.

2. Strategic- where due dilligence is given to fundamental and sound communication strategies, guided by sound research, and tested among a core target audience to insure communication objectives are acheived.

My 2 cents?

Be strategic first, then be cool.

[bill van steenwyk]

[QUOTE=Big Don;196515]Dave, could not agree more with the survey. They need to be open ended and not steer towards the answer. My only point was to show how all over the board the answers will be. Hopefully we would see patterns, then we know what to work on.




As someone who has no investment in Stock equipment, I found the survey that was done some 20 odd years ago very interesting, and also the comment about it, namely THAT THE RESULTS WERE ALL OVER THE PLACE, and consequently that made it hard and difficult to decipher. I came to exactly the opposite conclusion, as although as Don stated, there were many reasons given for getting out of racing, a lot of the reasons fall in the same general category such as MONEY, POLITICS, NOT COMPETITIVE, and probably one of the most important of all, NOT HAVING FUN ANY MORE.

In my 40 years of competitive boat racing, if I was having fun, most all the rest could be put up with, or worked around, but if it was not, then all the rest just became more things to aggravate me, and would soon make the sport just another irritant I could easily do without.

First thing I noticed from the results of the survey (if I read and understood it correctly) were that they (STOCK) lost approximately 35% (THIRTY FIVE PERCENT) of their total membership over a two year period. My only comment on this factor would be, if any business, and especially a member organization dependent on income from dues, sanctions, and such,, in size from a small family owned to a very large corporation, were to loose 35% of their customer base in 2 years, and consequently a large amount of gross or membership income, some heads would roll, if for no other reason the business would no longer be viable without rapid change for the better. Most large corporations would have at the least a change of CEO's and probably some of the BOD would also be gone.

Back to the opinion drawn by Don, (and no offence intended by a difference of opinion) but it looks to me that even though there are about 20 different reasons given for the loss of membership, most of those can be very easily put into 3-5 categories. The reasoning behind this is for example, take the three mentioned earlier in this poll, MONEY, POLITICS, and NOT COMPETITIVE. Most if not all of the 20 or so other reasons given could fit very nicely into just these three larger categories by simply saying, if you have a driver who feels he is not competitive, what is the reason?? Is it MONEY, POLITICS, (rule book issues, etc.) AGE, or what? Follow this reasoning and all the reasons listed can be very easily pared down to a very few main categories as was mentioned in the discussion about it, that all have overlapping reasons. Plus I also agree a deeper understanding that may not be obvious in a blind questionaire, can and should be undertaken by personal contact, or at least by phone. As was pointed out by a previous poster, some personal contact can do far more than checking boxes or multiple choice questions on an issue as important as this to a member driven organization.

THEN WHAT DO YOU DO? The solution would now seem to be much easier as now you only have just a few major categories to look at so as to determine the problems and solve them. rather than the 20 you started with that all will fit pretty well in the smaller group that ALL HAVE A COMMON SOLUTION. An example of this is about 64% of the NOT HAVING FUN GROUP, also complain about "race motors change too often", and "too much politics". It usually is the "politicians" that make the rules about "race motors that change too often", and all other rule book matters mentioned in the poll.

Included in the above reasons are commission members or other officers of clubs or the National Sanctioning organization protecting their own classes by hoarding equipment or other special parts, and making rules that perpetuate their own racing endeavors at the expense of fellow competitors.

One other big complaint was "cost of APBA Membership". That does not seem to be solvable this year anyway, with the recent dues increase to pay for Crown Partners.

Now to the point of all this:

It is pretty plain (at least to me) that the survey taken 20 years ago is not much different, or has many new items, as to complaints that have been posted over and over here on HR and other sites since boat racing web site inception. I also take the comment "ALL OVER THE PLACE" (the many reasons for quitting given in the survey) as there are a lot of folks who have become so pissed off over the years (and still are) and it naturally follows that is a prime reason APBA is even further in the hole membership wise than they were 20, 10, and even 5 years ago. Things haven't changed that much in that 20 year period insofar as where the leaders have led the membership and the common gripes still being heard. Whose fault is that? Is anybody listening?

Can the large expenditure of money with Crown solve all the problems? All the Crown boosters better hope so, because I imagine it would be very difficult/impossible to come up with that amount of money again, for any proposed reason As the saying goes, "fool me once, shame on you, etc., etc."

Which brings up another question I saw asked previously. What objectives are to be met in the Crown contract, and what if any penalties are there if not. I would not think a contract of this amount would be signed without something being understood regards performance by Crown.Has anybody seen this published anywhere, or has it been made public on the new APBA site?

If anybody understands anything out of this, is should be that right now anyway, there look to be a LOT MORE urgent problems than the Logo that started this thread, other than the money proposed to be spent there could possibly be better applied to a more urgent problem at this time?- or at least as Ann mentioned, till the present printed supply inventory runs down. Somebody else will make that decision I suppose, as that is why they get the "big bucks"

[joejohn44]

Perhaps you should seek out all the members that have quit and really, truly interview them in person and determine the reasons they quit. Then and only then will you be able to forge a way to grow. Until then, you are just spending money for the sake of spending money. New logos, new name, new website, it is all semantics until you identify the REASON people quit. And once you do indentify the reason, do EVERYTHING in your power to eliminate those reasons from the current system. It has been broke for 40 years. You have a lot of people to talk too. Probably more that have quit than is currently in the membership.

Dave, I can shed some light on this subject, as I AM that guy. I was involved in hydroplane racing all my life. Stock outboards as well as inboards. The quick answer is politics. I dont know how else to describe a situation where a guy can run coast to coast without losing a single heat including BOTH divisionals as well as the nationals and Dayton, And the guy who finished 2nd at the western divisionals and 3rd at the nationals gets in the hall of champions, while the guy who won everything was not even mentioned. Same class. My father was bitter about that until the day he died. I felt as though APBA did not want racers like us. I am blue collar guy who races on a string budget as a hobby. When they started making rules about uniforms and capsules in inboards, I was done. It felt like those rules were aimed directly at people like me. I think it burned somebody's butt that most of our hardware was home made and not anodized and we would show up with the boat needing a paint job as it was half primer and the chrome and imron boats were left fighting for second place. I miss the days you could show up towing the boat behind a pickup truck and a small carry toolbox and win the nationals. I thought I was all done racing until I moved to Texas and discovered NBRA. As soon as I saw their tag line "Grass roots racing with you in mind" I was interested. Heck, the whole rule book is only 85 pages, and that includes the member directory. Finally, I am excited about boat racing again. I am going to show up with my boat behind my pickup and I am going to have fun this year. If you go to the local motocross track, thats what you see...families showing up in trucks with the bike in the back and little johhny gets to race. let's not lose sight of the people we want to include. BTW, I still have the boat that went undefeated all those years ago, and it is under restoration. I will probably NEVER bring it to an APBA vintage event, because of all the restrictions, rules, regulations, and mostly the politics. Those guys are all nuts. You can't just show up and participate unless you fit the mold of what THEY deem appropriate. So, the oldest Ron Jones cabover in existence will become my lake toy. APBA is definately NOT for me. Joe John Schulte

[blueskyracer]

Dave, I can shed some light on this subject, as I AM that guy. I was involved in hydroplane racing all my life. Stock outboards as well as inboards. The quick answer is politics. I dont know how else to describe a situation where a guy can run coast to coast without losing a single heat including BOTH divisionals as well as the nationals and Dayton, And the guy who finished 2nd at the western divisionals and 3rd at the nationals gets in the hall of champions, while the guy who won everything was not even mentioned. Same class. My father was bitter about that until the day he died. I felt as though APBA did not want racers like us. I am blue collar guy who races on a string budget as a hobby. When they started making rules about uniforms and capsules in inboards, I was done. It felt like those rules were aimed directly at people like me. I think it burned somebody's butt that most of our hardware was home made and not anodized and we would show up with the boat needing a paint job as it was half primer and the chrome and imron boats were left fighting for second place. I miss the days you could show up towing the boat behind a pickup truck and a small carry toolbox and win the nationals. I thought I was all done racing until I moved to Texas and discovered NBRA. As soon as I saw their tag line "Grass roots racing with you in mind" I was interested. Heck, the whole rule book is only 85 pages, and that includes the member directory. Finally, I am excited about boat racing again. I am going to show up with my boat behind my pickup and I am going to have fun this year. If you go to the local motocross track, thats what you see...families showing up in trucks with the bike in the back and little johhny gets to race. let's not lose sight of the people we want to include. BTW, I still have the boat that went undefeated all those years ago, and it is under restoration. I will probably NEVER bring it to an APBA vintage event, because of all the restrictions, rules, regulations, and mostly the politics. Those guys are all nuts. You can't just show up and participate unless you fit the mold of what THEY deem appropriate. So, the oldest Ron Jones cabover in existence will become my lake toy. APBA is definately NOT for me. Joe John Schulte

Joe that says it all..Welcome to NBRA

[Dave M]

Great Input

Dave, I can shed some light on this subject, as I AM that guy. I was involved in hydroplane racing all my life. Stock outboards as well as inboards. The quick answer is politics. I dont know how else to describe a situation where a guy can run coast to coast without losing a single heat including BOTH divisionals as well as the nationals and Dayton, And the guy who finished 2nd at the western divisionals and 3rd at the nationals gets in the hall of champions, while the guy who won everything was not even mentioned. Same class. My father was bitter about that until the day he died. I felt as though APBA did not want racers like us. I am blue collar guy who races on a string budget as a hobby. When they started making rules about uniforms and capsules in inboards, I was done. It felt like those rules were aimed directly at people like me. I think it burned somebody's butt that most of our hardware was home made and not anodized and we would show up with the boat needing a paint job as it was half primer and the chrome and imron boats were left fighting for second place. I miss the days you could show up towing the boat behind a pickup truck and a small carry toolbox and win the nationals. I thought I was all done racing until I moved to Texas and discovered NBRA. As soon as I saw their tag line "Grass roots racing with you in mind" I was interested. Heck, the whole rule book is only 85 pages, and that includes the member directory. Finally, I am excited about boat racing again. I am going to show up with my boat behind my pickup and I am going to have fun this year. If you go to the local motocross track, thats what you see...families showing up in trucks with the bike in the back and little johhny gets to race. let's not lose sight of the people we want to include. BTW, I still have the boat that went undefeated all those years ago, and it is under restoration. I will probably NEVER bring it to an APBA vintage event, because of all the restrictions, rules, regulations, and mostly the politics. Those guys are all nuts. You can't just show up and participate unless you fit the mold of what THEY deem appropriate. So, the oldest Ron Jones cabover in existence will become my lake toy. APBA is definately NOT for me. Joe John Schulte

Joe,

You can bet your last dollar you are not the only one to show up at an NBRA race with a boat in the back of your truck, motors in the backseat, and win some races. Last year my Dad hauled my SEH in the back of his truck, powerhead in the open box in a garbage bag. Some tools, some other things important, like a cooler for beer and the lawn chairs for all the fun after the races sitting around and telling the competition you are gonna put a whupping on them tomorrow. (by the way, it is a good way to get free beer as they want to get you to drunk to race.... hehehe). Dad ended up winning the Nationals and high points in my SEH rig. And we showed up with our stuff in the back of his truck.

Welcome to the NBRA, you have a few racers in your area. Look up Gardner Miller, Dennise Burke, and a few others I can give you contact info for if you want. Main thing is, toss that boat in the back and come have some fun with the rest of us grass roots folks. I'll bring a rattle can of paint for ya if you need it. If you need help with anything, hollar.

[krazy karl]

I am sure a lot of you will recognize the guy with the white shirt and the cut pants. He has participated in boat racing for decades and lot of us drive one of his boats. The 88C in the background is mine. CSR4C was instrumental in getting me into boat racing. I always wanted to do it but was intimidated by the whole process and just stuck to my antique and classic stuff. He got into the marathon thing and the rest is history.

Now, look in the background again, and what do you see? A rag boat. We picked that up in Wisconsin on the way to Top'. Yes that is his boat and now one of three at last count there may be more now. He no longer races outboards and is having a fabulous time racing sailboats. You know why? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

He quit outboards primarily due to cost. He didn't quit because he wasn't competitive anymore, he was. He was always up front. I also suspect he got tired because of the tireless hours he put in to make a race go He would be the first one out laying out the course, setting out buoys and whatever was needed. Then he would get the patrol boats unloaded and set up. And he may even then be the race director. He also would be one of the main players making sure the NorCal 400 races went as planned to say nothing of maintaining the boats. Also he would be one of the last to leave Sunday night making sure everything got put away.

He now races sailboats as I said. He told me he can race several races all weekend for a cost of about $35 and that includes the Saturday night BBQ or dinner. What a deal. I understand they don't have the costs we do but he is getting a lot of bang for the buck.

So my point is, there are some things we need to do to save outboard racing. I don't know that our logo is all that bad, in fact I like it. We need to make it more of a recognizable thing and what it symbolizes. But most of all we have to do something about the cost of putting on races. We need to increase membership by recruiting more drivers and retaining the ones we have. We need to get the younger guys to step up and take leadership roles and help out. The old guys aren't going to be around forever to put on our races. Also a lot of our younger drivers are 2nd and 3rd or more generation drivers. Not really new blood. They need to get their non-racing friends interested. Get them to come to a race and even pay their way to jump into a NorCal 400 or take them testing. Ten minutes seat time and they will be hooked.

I hope CSR4C doesn't get mad at me for posting this but we CANNOT afford to lose anymore like him. We need to get our costs down, membership up, more people in leadership roles and more racers helping out at races.

Outboard racing means a lot to me I don't want to see it go away. The economy is starting to turn the corner so lets be ready. Proof? GM just put on a 3rd shift. OK, I am finished.

kk