modified descussion

[Mike 41P]

Make MOD back into Modified

Alex started this because we were talking about the Mod division after our Region 3 fall meeting. The point was that the basic Mod rules are pretty much OK, but then in pretty much every class except FA and FE they through in all these exceptions and limitations. What we felt is needed is to go in and weed out all those exceptions and put it back to where it started, an engine that started out as a factor model and hold just the basics as sacred, the bore and stroke, perhaps the carb. And generally allow work on ports, transfer, reed plate, ignition, etc. Right now the only thing really free in most case is the exhaust. I don,t know details of all the classes, but look at 25mod. The rules are set up specifically to protect the 22ci Merc from the 22ci OMC.

Lets get MOD back to what it is supposed to be, and once was! That is the point of this thread from our meeting!

[Joe J]

Lets get MOD back to what it is supposed to be, and once was! That is the point of this thread from our meeting![/QUOTE]

There is s system in place that allows for this to be brought up to the commission. simply write a proposal and submit it to you local Mod commissioner.

Joe

[David_L6]

So, what you are saying is that we should have a second, gasoline powered, Pro category. If you make this category and unlimited one, it will totally screw up the speed ranges of the classes. I have heard that a Yamato(302, 102) with no restrictions, could be made to go almost 90 mph in competition. That would put it in the speed range of a DMH, and leave the Merc guys with only a small handful of boats nationwide. They wouldn't be able to race EVER! Not even at the nationals. The Mod division serves as a great in-between category of Stock and Pro. That's what it is, lets not change the whole basis of this category. As I have said before, each category serves a purpose for people who have different veiws at what ouboard racing should be. Between Stock, Mod, and Pro, there is a place for everyone. We should never forget this, and make one category a mirror of another.

I agree, Ryan.

So, what you are saying is that we should have a second, gasoline powered, Pro category.

That's what it sounds like to me and I am not in favor of turning the mods into what would basically be a division for gas burning "fishing motor" based motors running under PRO division rules.

[David_L6]

I do not see 66's as any more available than the 60 ci six cylinder; what would this serve other than decreasing the competitiveness of currently running 60's?

Adding carbs and adding material is currently legal on some motors. Are you proposing to make a few currently legal motors illegal? Anyone in particular you wish to throw out?

At least new rods, pistons and rings are available from the local Mercury dealer for the 66" motors. That can't be said about the 60" motors.

I'd like to see the 66" motors made legal, but if that is done there should be some restrictions to protect the competitiveness of the 60" motors. Limiting port modifications and limiting carb size of the 66" are the first two things that come to mind.

I doubt that this will ever happen though. Exhaust systems for the 6 cylinder Mercs don't appear to be widely available.... If I'm not mistaken, APBA has a rule in place that would limit the 66" Merc to a "quiet exhaust" because it would be a new motor and open stacks aren't allowed on "new motors"....

[sam]

At least new rods, pistons and rings are available from the local Mercury dealer for the 66" motors. That can't be said about the 60" motors..

There are at least 2 aftermarket sources for rings for 60ci Mercs. Probably a lot cheaper than Merc rings for the 66's.

[David_L6]

Mod history

I believe that the mod rules were written as they were years ago was to try to limit the cost of building a mod motor. Throw out all the rules (we almost have already) and it gets very expensive to build a competitive mod (I'm thinking Merc motors here....). Allowing some mods, but limiting what can be done should, theorectically, make building a top notch mod cheaper than building a top notch stocker. With the parts availability as it is for the old Mercs, it's probably cheaper if the rules aren't so strict.

A short story. 20+ years ago, when I was racing B mod, I considered building a B-1 OMC. One of the best in the class advised me that the class wasn't as cheap as I was thinking it was. At that time you had to run stock parts - NO grinding, balancing, etc. That person told me that he was buying pistons and rods 50 at a time and matching them up. I couldn't afford to do that so I started racing CMH instead.

My motors are legal on the inside the way the rules were 20 years ago.
I have tried larger carbs on my C Merc (not legal 20 years ago) and I'm running a Yamato hatchet lower unit on my 44 (not legal 20 years ago). Other than that my motors will pass inspection using a very old set of rules. It cost $ to modify a motor and $$$ to build one to the newer rules.

I think that AOF and NBRA have allowed too many powerhead mods on the 40" and 44" motors. Those two motors are pretty much running against only like motors. The only thing that throwing out all the specs did was cause someone that wants to build one of those motors to have to spend more money on machine work (if he doesn't already have a machine shop in his garage. Some people do, but most don't.) The 30" C Merc is running against a totally different, more modern, loop charge motor so the looser rules are probably needed for that motor.

ANY make lower unit should be legal to run under any Mercury mod motor. Limit gear ratios if you must, but at least allow any lower units that are available.

For 40/44 Mercs: 1:1 or 1 tooth reduction. (Just as AOF and NBRA rules currently allow.) Maybe 2 teeth reduction just to make more lower units available.

For C mod? That's a tough one since more than one motor is allowed..... For the Merc (since most of these ratios were legal before the Yamato motors were allowed): 14:15, 14:19, 16:21, 1:1, plus I'd also allow anything up to 3 teeth reduction (i.e. 12:13, 12:14, 12:15 < not necessarily those particular ratios - just 1, 2, or 3 teeth reduction) and any make lower unit. Leave the C mod Yamato rules as is for now. Adjust later if necessary.

[David_L6]

There are at least 2 aftermarket sources for rings for 60ci Mercs. Probably a lot cheaper than Merc rings for the 66's.

Whatcha gonna wrap those aftermarket 60" rings around?

What is the price for aftermarket rings for an overbored 60" Merc? What overbore sizes are available? What material are they made of? Where can they be purchased?

What is the price for Mercury rings for an overbored 66" Merc? What overbore sizes are available? What material are they made of?

[David Weaver]

MOD Classic

David L6,

My friend, sounds like you and several others want a Modified Classic division!! Not necessarily a bad thing.

But, I see the challenge here being a finite (that's limited for you Cajun's ) number of engines that are approved to work with (there are only a fixed number of C merc's or C yamato's). And we know that these engines in their "stock" configurations were not all created equal. The best one's probably remain stock until they are put out to pasture by the SORC.

If the intent of Modified is to control cost then allow more engines to be used. Greater supply equals lower cost (Econ 101). Also, it may make it easier and cheaper for mechanics to tinker at the edge of being legal with engines. Yes, PRO Yamato lower units are expensive, but they are also not being produced any longer (atleast in any quantity) and you are again affected by Econ 101 low supply equals high cost. But when you destroy your OEM Merc lower unit from the 60's, what is your alternative for repalcement? And as modified engines continue to increasae torque and RPM's how well will Yamato SO lower units hold-up? Was the C-Stock (102 or 302) lower unit rated at 9,000 RPMS or higher?

IF the current rules are determined by the modified members to be the best manner in which to proceed that is great. It is their category to manage and they have "skin" invested in it. I just do not see much of a parallel between Mod based on stroke and bore with PRO engines that were built solely for racing. I believe that the modified division will become increasingly important to open boat outboard racing as we move forward. I see the SO division facing monumental chalenges unless a new generation of engines comes forward (let's hope for the hot rod revival).

As I see it, the only reason that the PRO dvision still exists is that it can survive without any one or two manufacturers remaining active. 10 Years ago, it was all Konigs and Yamato's. Today its VRP, Rossi, Mac Minarelli, Arens, etc. Tomorrow, it will be the next entrpernuer and engineer. I believe that the Mod's could benefit from the best of the PRO and Stock categories. A good supply of factory powerheads and a good supply of "tinkerers". Together, this could keep the mod's going dtrong for a very long time. A lot could be salvaged from the junk yards of old marina's.

Just my opinions, we welcome yours.

[AJennings]

dave

dave,
im not talking about fah, far, feh, fer. im talking about ever class between them. amh amr bmh bmr cmh cmr dmh dmr

AJennings

[sam]

Whatcha gonna wrap those aftermarket 60" rings around?

What is the price for aftermarket rings for an overbored 60" Merc? What overbore sizes are available? What material are they made of? Where can they be purchased?

What is the price for Mercury rings for an overbored 66" Merc? What overbore sizes are available? What material are they made of?

std, .015 and .030 are available for about $22 per 3 ring piston (which is only $14.55 per piston if you are only use 2 per cylinder ) from Hastings ... you can get them from any NAPA store that has a decent manager and staff ( this means not all stores will cöoperate, some just won't special order anything). I've been told Perfect Circle still makes 2 7/8" Merc rings too; but I don't know their price or US distributor.

I'll try to look up Merc's price.

[sam]

Merc's price for 2 9/16 rings for 66's is $75.32 for std's and $87.92 for .015's and .030's

[modhydro]

Merc gearcases

David,
In APBA under a mod Merc you can run any gearbox as long as it meets two dimensions. I don't think that there is a unit made that is smaller than them. With the D (E) you are limited to 1:1 or one under. For the C it is any ratio. I don't have a spec manual handy, but it seems like the torpedo was 1.75" for C and D but there was a difference above it. I'm sure someone will give the correct dimensions if I'm wrong. Even a small Konig is hard to get that skinny and not hit oil.

To the rest,
I race modified because you can take a regular pleasure powerhead and do what you want to it based on the rules. The way I see our division, we have the full spectrum, from classes that are more or less adding an exhaust, to classes that are bore and stroke. This has a place for all of us regardless of skill and ability. If we made all Mod classes simple bore and stroke rules, I'm afraid we would eliminate far too many people based on cubic dollars rather than having a niche for all levels. Even with what is in place I feel that you can get the most bang for the buck in Mod. As far as new engines, bring them on. We have a method for doing that. I believe it is as simple as running it in a class that is comparable as a probationary thing to see how it fits. I think this is a better way than having the commision just make a new engine rule to implement more. (not that they wouldn't do a good job but performance on the course would be a far better measure in my book) The one thing I do see is too many classes. I've thought about it quite a bit and where do we cut back? Since we seem to be the clearing house of stock, we inherit to a large degree their classes. It will be a hard pill to swallow if it ever consolidates.

Steve Roskowski

[David_L6]

David L6,

My friend, sounds like you and several others want a Modified Classic division!! Not necessarily a bad thing.

Does that mean I'm getting OLD?

But, I see the challenge here being a finite (that's limited for you Cajun's ) number of engines that are approved to work with (there are only a fixed number of C merc's or C yamato's). And we know that these engines in their "stock" configurations were not all created equal. The best one's probably remain stock until they are put out to pasture by the SORC.

If the intent of Modified is to control cost then allow more engines to be used. Greater supply equals lower cost (Econ 101). Also, it may make it easier and cheaper for mechanics to tinker at the edge of being legal with engines. Yes, PRO Yamato lower units are expensive, but they are also not being produced any longer (atleast in any quantity) and you are again affected by Econ 101 low supply equals high cost. But when you destroy your OEM Merc lower unit from the 60's, what is your alternative for repalcement? And as modified engines continue to increasae torque and RPM's how well will Yamato SO lower units hold-up? Was the C-Stock (102 or 302) lower unit rated at 9,000 RPMS or higher?

IF the current rules are determined by the modified members to be the best manner in which to proceed that is great. It is their category to manage and they have "skin" invested in it. I just do not see much of a parallel between Mod based on stroke and bore with PRO engines that were built solely for racing. I believe that the modified division will become increasingly important to open boat outboard racing as we move forward. I see the SO division facing monumental chalenges unless a new generation of engines comes forward (let's hope for the hot rod revival).

As I see it, the only reason that the PRO dvision still exists is that it can survive without any one or two manufacturers remaining active. 10 Years ago, it was all Konigs and Yamato's. Today its VRP, Rossi, Mac Minarelli, Arens, etc. Tomorrow, it will be the next entrpernuer and engineer. I believe that the Mod's could benefit from the best of the PRO and Stock categories. A good supply of factory powerheads and a good supply of "tinkerers". Together, this could keep the mod's going dtrong for a very long time. A lot could be salvaged from the junk yards of old marina's.

Just my opinions, we welcome yours.

David,

My thoughts.... I think that there should be enough leeway in the mod rules that all or almost all factory built parts can be used (min. or max. dimensions, weights, more liberal than "stock".). Throwing out all the wieghts, dimensions, etc. is further than I'd like to see it go. That's just my opinion though. And it doesn't matter now anyway. The rules are already more liberal than I'd have them.

One big advantage to current rules: It does make the motor inspectors job a lot easier and inspections a lot quicker if there aren't many specs to check.

[David_L6]

David,
In APBA under a mod Merc you can run any gearbox as long as it meets two dimensions. I don't think that there is a unit made that is smaller than them. With the D (E) you are limited to 1:1 or one under. For the C it is any ratio. I don't have a spec manual handy, but it seems like the torpedo was 1.75" for C and D but there was a difference above it. I'm sure someone will give the correct dimensions if I'm wrong. Even a small Konig is hard to get that skinny and not hit oil.

THAT'S the info I've been looking for! My C is good to go (at an APBA race) as is. Thanks Steve.

[David_L6]

Merc's price for 2 9/16 rings for 66's is $75.32 for std's and $87.92 for .015's and .030's

I used to buy brand new pistons with rings and wrist pin from Dudley for..... Never mind. Ya'll might think I'm OLD.