2009 J Rules & Proposals

[sam]

When 90% of all racers start in the junior classes

I suspect this is not true and I guess I should go back to writing the APBA member survey

I also bet that Mr. Hemp has do***entation that shows his testing truly meets the definition of "extensive"

The rest makes sense and I basically agree with ... except that you will have expense added back in for props at a major cost unless you require an unaltered OEM prop tested against a pitch/diameter block at each race

Here's the problem as I see it: in order not to alienate current J racers the shifter foot has to run the exact same speed or 2 classes are needed.

[bill boyes]

Ron and Bill

Ron. Sam Hemp is a member of the J committee.

Bill. Testing time for J's. Read your rule book ref Safety rule 6 page 8.
I suggest at your next race were J's are on the sanction point the rule out to the Race Chairman and Referee.

[Kev43V]

while i would love to see a sportsman's class added as bait to help "fish"for new racers at local races. (not a J issue) I feel Sam is right, can you imagine trying to balance 2 motors some with racing lower ends and some with a stock foot? it would turn in to a parity nightmare IMHO.
on the other hand what if we allowed for a stock foot but they received no points?
WE all know that we will do everything possible to get someone that is interested in racing out on the water. Many people outside of the racing community can not imagine we would do that, and/or they are uncomfortable borrowing equipment. yet they could pick up a dirt cheap uncompetitive boat that is still safe. Then run their fishing motor (loaned safety equip) long enough to find out if their kid really wants to do this?
Just thoughts certainly not a proposal

[aojesus]

planing issues

We took some heat this year for our philosophy on Joey's first year running J.
After testing we found that Joe could plane the boat (with some difficulty) at maximum height. When we got to the races we pulled out 1/4" of shims. Joe never had a problem planing the red boat at the races therefore he got plenty of seat time in competition. His job this season was to learn the fundamentals and have fun. We never finished in the top three this season but Joe learned a great deal, found a comfortable place in the boat and we had FUN!

Our planing issues this year came with the new boat. We took the new boat to Frostproof without testing. It was completely our fault because we didn't have time to test the new boat but took it anyway.

[Skoontz]

Bill:

As a matter of fact, we have done that very thing...The standard reply....

"We don't have enough time to do that this race".

That said, in the situation described, (kind of sort of novice talking here, what would the next step be, if we ask for test time, are denied, and, boat(s) in the J class can't plane?

And would this constitute a modification to current rules?

You guys in 11 just plain old get it right and your example should be used as a model for 12's conduct, in my observation and experiences.

When you guys gave the classes in the swimming pool, then took each J driver out with an A boat schooling next to them, it don't get any better than that!

10 and 11 have exemplary mentors and mentor programs, and allow time.

.

[bill boyes]

Bill, again refer to the APBA rule book. Rule 31(4) page xxvii. "it shall be the duty of the Referee to see that all provisions of the racing rules are complied with" etc. If this is not being done then the Region Chairman and Chief Referee needs to be advised. Also review rule 15 (1) &(2) Protest. para. 2 would fall under the No time for "J" testing.

[bill boyes]

I think that this thread needs to get back on track to J rule proposals.

[Fast Jack]

j Class

After my sons first full season in J H I would not want to change the rules other than as I had stated before. On the subjet of testing. I started him 3/4 of an inch deeper than the min. we also started with the motor back 1 inch and made changes as he felt comfortable in the boat. I also took advantage of the rules and ran beside him in testing in a 25 ssh set up to show him the starts and lines around the pins. He finished up this season with 2 wins 4 seconds and finished every heat, also took the region 1 hi points. He had a great time at the Nats and made it into the finals. We still have a little left in the height and the Stilwill horsepower is still coming.. I would say no compitition rule changes needed..

[Boomtap15F]

It looks like rule #6, if enforced would greatly increase the chances of a JH/JR getting on plane when it comes time to race that class. But let's just say someone still can't get on plane, would this JH/JR driver be allowed to use a personal prop just to get on the water even though they would not be legal or allowed any points? Or is there a rule saying you either get on the water with an APBA prop or you don't race?

[Skoontz]

Disregard proposed rule change to 6!

Rule 6 is relevant to test time only. Engine/propeller rules would apply for anyone in the race. Don't use your own prop unless you are willing to take the chance someone will rat you out...Big no no.....


So, lets recap here....To plane the J boat.....

Rule 1, ( unwritten in book) per Sam Hemp...Select the right boat first and/or set the distance from the bottom to the prop, as Sam posted a few back.
Rule 2, per many replies. Drop the motor to get the kid addicted, and learn to plane the boat, then work up to the legal limit.


Disregard my suggestion of modification to rule #6, and change to drivers and crews actions on race day....Enforce the rule using rule 31, and if the refs don't give you satisfaction, then use rule 15 and drop the 50 big ones to protest. No need for rule 6 mods, just enforcement of rule 6.


I'm thinking about this whole thing however, and see a legitimate reason to propose lowering the J motor. That's gunna solve allot of issues right there...

So, proposal to change Safety rule 4, Engine Mounting Heights, page 5 in the safety rules section.

JH, JR, currently at 1 3/8", drop that to 1 3/4" and see what happens from there...
Reason for the change, too much grief not planing with novice drivers and novice dads who have little to no help at the race sites. Lowering the engines would help with this issue greatly. Further, no need to do the hokey-pokey putting the right leg in putting the right leg out.

[aojesus]

Not looking to start a war here, just asking out of curiosity......
Is there any discussion among the J committee regarding performance differences between the OMC and Merc?

[modhydro]

Lowering motors??

How long will it be before somebody will change the inset with a lower height? You have just shifted the problem for a while.

The answer is for the dads to not get greedy and try to run everything at the absolute maximum.

You need to sit down with your J driver and decide between yourselves whether you are going to run for a championship and risk having the setup at the "critical" point or be slightly conservative and making all the heats, but potenially slower. We have always thought that running all heats was more important.

Changing rules to fix what I see as a pretty isolated problem isn't the answer. It will only shift the problem once boats are tailored around the new depth rules. Simply learn the idiosyncracies of what we have and know what changes will make it plane. Not knowing what you need isn't a valid excuse, at least from our experience. Every time we had a question on J stuff, we had several answers. Just remember that unless you listen to the answers and implement them on your own program, you have learned nothing.

Steve Roskowski

"former J dad"

[Team B&H]

The motors are as equivalent as possible at this time when you compare the best of each. Sure the Mercs are winning the big races but look at the quality of the teams who are running them compared to teams running OMCs. Just three years ago, Valerie D'Agostino had the fastest JH at the Dayton Nationals. She had both OMC and Merc motors but ran the OMC. I was betting on her to win but it didn't work out that way because wind conditions forced a new course and start with no testing and something like 9 or 10 boats jumped the first heat. Valerie and Matt tested extensively, had a state of the art boat and had a great Gary Pond motor. You can win with an OMC but have to get everything right.

I was involved with sizing the Merc restrictor plate. We had just started running JH at the Bakersfield Nationals with a borrowed motor. Our next race was Lock Haven where Steve Hearn had a Merc that had been tried pretty unsuccessfully in A. He had a restrictor plate made to try as a J. Nobody else was willing to try it but we thought it would be cool and didn't care about points- this was only my son's 2nd race. We couldn't get it fitted to the boat on Sat so we ran another borrowed OMC. We got the Merc adapted for Sun and Bill started near the front the first heat and was out in front by the first turn. Second heat we made him start last and it took him till the second turn to get in front. Obviously too fast but certainly he had a great time. Mercury made up some smaller restrictors for our next race at Grass Lake. We ran the smaller one and finished second every heat running against Amanda Hagerl and Donnie Allen Jr-Jr. Both those teams at the time had worked extensively with the J OMC motors and had super motors. They even knew which of their A motors ran best with a restrictor plate and which didn't like the restrictors. (Any current J OMC teams even think of that nowdays?) We weren't faster than either of them but weren't slower either. They split heats running 1-3 both heats with Bill taking second both times. We ended up third but probably had the best total time and that was with changing props between heats. So that seemed like a pretty good size; we were as fast as the fastest OMCs but not faster and the J Committee approved that size restrictor with the motor. We provided data and race results, done in front of anyone who took notice, for them to base their decision on, not just a hey, lets try that size restrictor or engine height.

An OMC won the next Nationals; we were fast in elims but the motor stopped before the start of the second final heat and couldn't be restarted even with help from the patrol boat. The next year at Whitney Point, Amanda Hagerl had a half boat lead over Bill until they both hit a wave on the final backstretch. Amanda's boat bobbled but our's carried over it. The Merc won but only because of a better boat, better driver or luck depending on your point of view.

My point is that the Merc isn't head and shoulders above the very best OMC motors. They are very close in top speed. The average Merc is better than the average OMC and the Merc is good in/off the corner. I don't see anyone now competiting with an OMC at a level that Hagerl's and Allen's did previously, save for D'Agostino who put all the right pieces and driver together.

[NUT2F]

[QUOTE=Team B&H;118121]The motors are as equivalent as possible at this time when you compare the best of each. Sure the Mercs are winning the big races but look at the quality of the teams who are running them compared to teams running OMCs. Just three years ago, Valerie D'Agostino had the fastest JH at the Dayton Nationals. She had both OMC and Merc motors but ran the OMC. I was betting on her to win but it didn't work out that way because wind conditions forced a new course and start with no testing and something like 9 or 10 boats jumped the first heat. Valerie and Matt tested extensively, had a state of the art boat and had a great Gary Pond motor. You can win with an OMC but have to get everything right.

Sam, You are correct on every point, except this one. Yes 3 years ago the OMC and Merc were close, they are not now. If we are trying to build this sport, its going to come with new drivers. The best way to get new drivers is with kids getting into boat racing, with all of the other interests out there for kids(football, baseball, hockey, etc.) if you make it competative from the start you may keep them involved. Fix the problem, change the restrictor and give them parity, this is why we went to APBA propellers for PARITY.

[Skoontz]

Steve:

Not trying to start and argument by any means, and, I hear you loud and clear...I hate rules and changes as much as anyone.

In this case, I speak from our failures, not our successes, and maintain that no boat should not plane, in this class, weather you have a 1st day driver, or national champ.

The J class was designed and built by seasoned racers, to get new racers, ( their kids) involved into the sport. It is critical all the support mechanisms are in place or, the parents have to possess a high level of skills from their experiences. So, how to you get those involved with no experiences as we had when we entered??

The class offers little to nothing for those newbies with no mentor programs. The class does offer a great deal of frustration to those trying to make the boat work and for those who drive the boat when it does not plane.

Though it appears that many don't want to see change, ok, I'll accept that if the following occurs:

A step by step manual is produced with all measurements and ideal boat designs to plane a successful J race boat. Write it in easy to follow steps that any public school educated kid could read and understand.

Start from the boat and what you feel the most successful boat should be like, to the engine and set up. Specifically talk about planing issues, weight transfer, and alike.

You can get this exact manual from most other JR racing venues for a small fee and the attitudes and thoughts of those other participants are open to change, which is why those sports have seen the tremendous growth they have and a large reason that boat racing has kind of stagnated..

It's either that, or figure a way to eliminate all planing issues, because current status of this class will chase any newbie away who has no family involved in the sport.