J motors...

[Ascencio Racing]

I am an opc driver who did some shoping in Trenton for the future of Ascencio Racing. I was able to speak to a few SO people as I am trying to prepare myself for giving my kids a 26 year head start on there dad, but i left a bit confused with the info/feedback I received. As a future j parent, I am wondering what the j category is going to do about the issue of the mercury 15.9 engines running non oem 15.9 rings that were produced for that engine. Are these engines going to be disqualified at the nationals, can i run them at non national events if i can get my hands on them? Are they legal rings are not? It was explained to me that there are a lot of racers out here that have not cheated and are getting beat by these engines. Apparently, these engines that have the other rings in them have supposedly been built by someone on the east coast and have a significant advantage over the other engines both mercury & omc. I was told that these other rings are softer and therefore brake in quicker and easier thus producing more horsepower. I would think it would be wrong for apba to not disqualify any engine that they inspect that has these rings. If my kids like racing, I will be driving and other racers will be coming from all parts of the country to race at big events like the nationals and will spend thousands to do so so there has to be a level/fair playing field for all involved. It was explained to me that those running those engines are cheating. If true, those of us that chose not to cheat should not have to be subjected to loosing to these cheating engines. Or let me know where to get the engine rings. If we loose on a fair playing field then we loose but to loose to engines that have a significant advantage is wrong. I talked to another J father over the weekend and they said after they got their engine back from this engine builder it was at least 2 MPH faster. He said before they went to the east coast engine builder, they spent 1000.00’s of dollars to try and be competitive against some of these mercury engines and can’t because someone decided that they were going to bend the rules.
I feel bad for the families that have these engines because they are now going to have to make a decision to run and get disqualified or not be able to run the engines, if they are illigal.
I don’t know if steve hearn or earnie dawe visit this site but those of you that do, need to make sure that we let them know to do the right thing with this issue.
Apparently this issue was not addressed several years ago when it came up. If that is true, that is not good. There are plenty of folks like me with kids and are 1-2 years away from getting their kids on the water. Inquiring on the class and getting this type of information is very unsettling. So, did i get good info? Are any rings legal? Are these east coast engines legal or not?
Thanks in advance for your help.

[Big Don]

It seems that the rule book is a little vague on the running of these rings. The rule book states any Mercury ring can be used. Now was that the intent of the rule? No I don't think so. I don't think we intended on someone taking a ring that was produced 50 years ago and allowing them to run them. Do these rings have an advantage? I would say they do. Those engines that have these rings in them are some of the fastest engines in the country. I heard several years ago that this engine builder was using aftermarket rings and therefore chose not to send my engines to him. I would never willingly want to run something I know in not legal. Been down that road before having won a nationals to only be thrown out for a small technical violation (1/32 negative dead rise rule) I don't want to have to deal with going through that again.

My personal take is I don't think these rings should be allowed. Everyone does not have them available to them and they are faster and have an advantage.

It's a tuff position to be in having to make this decision but our commissioners on the J committee have been in this position before and have thrown equipment out. Yes we would be putting these owners in a tuff spot having to rebuild their engines two weeks prior to the nationals but is it fair to the rest of the drivers who don't have them in.

[wdlong1226]

you see

this is how certain people get there engines running so much faster. and that to me is cheating bending the rules for some is not fair to others. this is why the merc is faster

[MGallagher]

I think we should try to have the some of the 70 sets(#?) of "legal" rings available, at the nationals for those who feel that there motors might be illegal to have an opportunity to remedy this situation.

Rule:7) The use of genuine Mercury oversized pistons and rings is permissible.

As for the legality of the rings, I think "genuine" is the only question here. Producing a Mercury production number or part number for these rings will help the J committee determine whether they are illegal or not.

Disclaimer: I am not a J parent (soon to be), and really do not have enough information to speak on this. However, I do know that I was very excited and impressed when I saw Mercurys running with OMC A's this past year and this new development shed a different light on that.

[14-H]

Is That A Rumor Or Are People Just Saying That?

First, there are a lot of rumors floating around about Mercury J engine rings most of which, I suspect, are untrue. Second, have faith in the system: it usually works. Ed Runne is the Chief Inspector at the Stock, Mod, J Nationals and he is very good. There is also a process for protests and appeals for anyone who believes that they have not been treated fairly. Third, there is always the Annual Meeting to remedy any problem, perceived or actual. Eddie.

[MGallagher]

I am sure a J committee member will make an official statement and straighten this all out.

Ed,
First, I agree with you on rumors, they are very dangerous. Second, your right, he is very good. Thirdly, why wait so long to act on something that effects are most important category( I know, that's the only time that something of substance can be done).

[14-H]

***Thirdly, why wait so long to act on something that effects are most important category( I know, that's the only time that something of substance can be done).

Is there a problem that needs to be addressed? Call a J committee member. Eddie.

[MGallagher]

I know, your right Ed. They have been contacted I believe.

I am attempting to produce some ideas for the situation(If there is one) through discussion and debate, that's all. Does that fall under your "Yoda" philosophy.LOL J/K.

[Big Don]

Is there a problem that needs to be addressed? Call a J committee member. Eddie.

There is a problem and this is as good a place as any to discuss it as long as we all stay professional.

I think what everyone that is concerned is looking for is, where do the 2 categories stand on this issue?

I need to know so I can tear my three Mercury’s apart and make any changes that are needed. I’m not willing to give up two MPH as stated if these other rings are faster and legal. Are they available thru Mercury because what I ordered is not the same rings others may be using so I will need a part number if anyone has it.

Also if this is not the place to discuss then maybe they can post their position on the APBA site so everyone knows what to do.

[14-H]

There is a problem and this is as good a place as any to discuss it as long as we all stay professional.
***

Okay: Based upon the rule quoted by Mr. Gallagher, non-Mercury rings are not legal; Mercury rings are. What's the problem?

[Team B&H]

I've heard thru the grapevine about someone using MK20-H rings in a J- particularly an oversize J. I don't have an oversize J block available to play with but pulled out a std bore 15 block, new piston and rings and a std 20-H piston and rings to examine this. First off, the 20-H has the same rectangular ring groove for all 3 rings and the J has a tapered top ring so there is no interchangeability there. The 20-H ring will fit into the bottom J ring groove but the end gap must be opened up considerably with my std bore block. You'd have to grind enough to get rid of the groves on both ends for the piston ring locating pin and then regrind them. Obviously approx .050 less would be needed to fit it in an oversize block. In either case, it seems to me that that would be enough to make the ring not be as round as desirable. As MYTHBUSTERS would say, its POSSIBLE but not PLAUSABLE. In any case, its still the bottom ring, hardly as important as the top one.

It would seem more likely to cut down a J oversize ring to use in a std bore motor if your goal is to decrease ring end gap, but that is already unquestionably legal.

Are there other Merc rings in the correct size range and shapes? I don't know.

When the J oversize pistons were approved, any Mercury piston was chosen rather than just .015 oversize to cover the possibility of an .030 piston at a future date. Somehow rings were attached to this but the intention was/is to allow any piston ring just as the motor can use any bearing or seal. Most other Stock motor rules have never had a prohibition on non-OEM piston rings, OMC A and Merc 25XS being exceptions.

And lastly, a non-OEM ring may appear different from the OEM ring when new but run them both for some time and identification becomes far less certain. Wear off the cir***ferential grooves and polish the top and bottom sides of the ring from use and who could tell if it was OEM or not? I feel it is unreasonable to think that an inspector could find a non-OEM ring 100% of the time just as it would be impossible for a racer to prove his used and worn ring was indeed OEM.

[17W]

Solution....

It may not get rectified before the Nationals but....Ed Runne no doubt has a plan in place for how we intend to handle this.

It is clear that the rule needs to have the "gray" area removed!

Maybe the rule should read as such-
The use of OEM .015" oversized piston & rings (Mercury part#xxx-xxxxx & #xxx-xxxx) is permissable & must have been produced for the sole use in the 15.9cu." motor.

Soon to be "J" Dad.

[Kev43V]

well there may not be a part number left. But softer is softer. there are certainly ways to check hardness

[14-H]

*** and who could tell if it was OEM or not? I feel it is unreasonable to think that an inspector could find a non-OEM ring 100% of the time ***.

As I said in my first post in this thread, Ed Runne is good!

If what I have heard (and mind you, people are just saying that; it's not a real rumor), Runne can tell and if you have non-Mercury rings in your engine you might think twice about running them in Whitney Point. Eddie.

[14-H]

***It is clear that the rule needs to have the "gray" area removed!
**.

Dear "Soon-to-be..": There is no grey area: Mercury is legal; anything else is not under the rule that is in the book.