Where do we draw the line?

[fernandez32112]

Actions speak louder than words...

In an effort to spearhead some changes in the OPC classes I have done my bit of research and found that mis-information (I was as mis-informed as most) is the biggest problem facing any changes right now. The OPC rule book (page 90 sec 24-2) has a rule already in place that accomodates exactly what were all saying needs to be done...Its done already!!! We dont need to make the same rule over agian!! The rule states that aftermarket parts will be available if the OEM part is no longer being made. Can we have any easier??

All you need to do as class drivers and region members is address the specific parts that are no longer available and submit the request. This action will lead most people (myself included) to learn that most of the parts that are "not available" actually are. This might also lead most to learn that in most cases the after market parts that are available to replace production parts are inferior and most people will not buy them anyway.


This leads me to another issue: Money

I feel that some of the issues at hand stem from "affordablity" and not from "availablity". Racing is not cheap!! and its not getting any cheaper.
Using aftermarket parts will not make racing less expensive. A Mercury 120 piston is going for about $120, dont expect to get a piston of same or equal quality for less than that. Mercury Cyl Heads are available from the factory for $160 ea, that is not a bad price, its cheaper than the sst60 heads and cheaper than re-working the whole thing. Re-sleeving a 120 block will as much as buying a whole new block which currently is still available for $1125 each. Complaints and critisism will not make parts any cheaper, this is the reality of racing, its not going to change.................

SST60 class has most parts available new. Parts that are not available new is the crank and block. I have already made a motion to my region reps to make these parts available from aftermarket manufacturers (Pro-Marine) or allow substitutes of the current part numbers with numbers that were mass produced.

Most parts are still available and in the cases where the parts are not available, after markets parts will be accepted to replace them.
I hate to say it but most of us, including myself, are guilty complaining too much and doing very little.

Action speaks louder than words!! We still need changes and action will get us those changes. Lets move away from our comfortable computers and do something!! What are the changes were really asking for?

[raceright]

Is this the engine you want at the below site?
http://www.tohatsu.co.jp/en/boat/products/m40csp.html

To import will take a competition waver from EPA which means we must come up with a way to insure that this engine will NEVER be used for anything but racing. We need cooperation from my Tohatsu contacts, some upfront money to buy at least three at a time, and patience to wait six to eight months to get them in. I am willing to work with someone who is willing to spend the money up front and be the class contact and organizer. I will work with EPA and whoever is the up-front sponsor to see if we could make it work. However, instead of bringing back historical racing products, why not race some of the products you can buy off-the-shelf?

So, who will step forward with the money and leadership?
Neil Bass

and then I woke up

[nbass]

To Those Awake

I like the last post! Reality is that all this special stuff is not easy, is not fast to accomplish, is expensive, and is just plain frustrating to make and sell. I thank everyone for their interest, but we cannot even pay for the cost of a venture that sells only a few parts or engines. The classic stock hydros do not work very well with a tall tower a club lower unit and a 2:1 gear ratio. They do need some specialty racing parts. Hence we need the Bass Tohatsu and the Sidewinder engines. However, OPC should be able to work well with off-the-shelf engines. Why not start some classes in the very stock 50HP and 70HP range? I think it would draw some new members.
Thanks to all,
Neil Bass

[catndahats]

wise words...

Thank you Mr. Bass, Kevin Ladd, and Alex Fernandez and others...you are all correct.

I'm one of those new guys sitting on the fence, considering getting into OPC racing in 2008. And, I am reading all the posts with great interest. Obviously, all that are involved in boat racing do it as a passion.

Personally, I'd like to see something happen to make the sport grow nationally.

I imagine that there are many folks like myself wanting to get into the sport in something like a 45 or 60 class--even some other version with a stock 50 - 70hp, but it is just not happening. There's talk, and then there is action.

If the APBA really belongs to the drivers, and drivers / promotors really want the sport to grow, why can't they come up with something on a national level for entry level folks?

Wouldn't it be great to see 100 new boats and drivers on the water next year?

I'll sign up today and volunteer my time to make it work.

Very respectfully to all the racers and folks that make APBA work,
Nate

However, OPC should be able to work well with off-the-shelf engines. Why not start some classes in the very stock 50HP and 70HP range? I think it would draw some new members.
Thanks to all,
Neil Bass

[nbass]

Listen up OPC Leaders

There it is from a real potential racer. OPC leaders, yours for action. Good luck and I hope you make it work.
Neil Bass

[MN1]

I guess the best way to improve OPC is to learn from our mistakes. I have been around OPC racing since 1973 and have seen many classes come and go. Lets look at some classes that were started and did not survive and try to determine why they failed. Lets take a class that is in the 50 to 70 hp range, it was called Formula 50. This was also a resurrection of the Sport D class of the 70's. It used a 50 hp motor on a tunnel boat with motor and weight restrictions. This class had only a few boats and could not meet the min number of boats in the class to stay a class. It had no sponsorship from any motor manufacturer, no series races and I'm sure little in prize money. I think I saw it run one, two times at the most at the Nationals.
Another class that most OPCer's made have heard of is Sport E and Family E classes. Although 75 hp it's close enough. This class ran tunnel boats in the Sport class and V bottoms on the Family class. These classes were promoted by OMC and even special edition motors were made and used for the classes. And every motor was available from the local dealership, AND YES in a SHORT SHAFT. Even Mercury made a motor for these classes and even tried to out do OMC with the high performance 650 XS.
How long did these classes last and when did it expire? I don't know when the E class came about but it was before 1973 and it stayed with OPC until OMC decided to start making the new engine for SST 60 class. Since SST 60 was their new baby and the E motor was no longer in production or being fazed out, all the promotion effort went to the SST 60.
And hey, who wants to race a 75 hp when you can get a special price deal from OMC on a new 90 hp SST 60 motor and run faster too. Factory support for a ordinary racer!! This was the death of Sport E. Family E or as it was know at this time period E Production lasted a little longer but had much reduced numbers.
Can anyone else think of why SST 45 has worked and hasn't fallen by the wayside yet?

I know, but would like some other constructive thinking besides just start another class with off the self engines.
Mark Nelson

[washburn]

It looks like Sport C is alive and well in the WI and Mn. area from what we could see at the nationals. I would be very interesrested in hearing from the Sport C drivers why they feel that they have had success. One thing that I did observe was that they appear to work together and have FUN. This looks like a great class to start in if we could clone what they are doing on a national level. We need a place for people to start, that is not expensive, and is fun. They also seem to have a good number of races close to where the boats are located.

I think SLT while not an OPC class seems to be growing. The SLT's seem to be doing a good job of promoting their classes.

45's and 60's are alot of bang for the $. both will run in the 80mph range and a competitive used rig can be purchased for a reasonable price. Both classes are fast enough to be interesting and provide the drivers with a good sensation of speed. We need to remember that in early 70's a 60 MPH pleasure boat was considered fast. A good Sport J would run 90. We now have pleasure STV's running over 120, Jetskis that will do 70, Bass boats going fishing at 80+ and off shore guys running some crazy numbers. I completly understand that racing is much different then running straight down the lake, but the perception comes back to bang for the buck.

Any thing we do with new boats and new engines is not going to be cheap.
It will need to be fast enough to get your attention, there will need to be manufacture support, and we will need to promote the class to get new people in. If we do it the motor should probably be a current EPA appproved engine so that it could be sold later on. It would be great to get a couple manufactures involved. Stock motors. Solid mounts and steering bars should be the only modifications allowed. If we look at this as a starter class the rigs need to safe and the equipment needs to be as bullet proof as possible.

We also need to look at the history of Super Sport. We need to see what things worked and what they could have improved to make the class better. Supersport came on strong, then seemed to decline and now seems to be building back up. Most of the rigs are in Region 5 where the class started and Danny did a great job of promoting the class.

[raceright]

It looks like Sport C is alive and well in the WI and Mn. area from what we could see at the nationals. I would be very interesrested in hearing from the Sport C drivers why they feel that they have had success. One thing that I did observe was that they appear to work together and have FUN. This looks like a great class to start in if we could clone what they are doing on a national level. We need a place for people to start, that is not expensive, and is fun. They also seem to have a good number of races close to where the boats are located.

I think SLT while not an OPC class seems to be growing. The SLT's seem to be doing a good job of promoting their classes.

45's and 60's are alot of bang for the $. both will run in the 80mph range and a competitive used rig can be purchased for a reasonable price. Both classes are fast enough to be interesting and provide the drivers with a good sensation of speed. We need to remember that in early 70's a 60 MPH pleasure boat was considered fast. A good Sport J would run 90. We now have pleasure STV's running over 120, Jetskis that will do 70, Bass boats going fishing at 80+ and off shore guys running some crazy numbers. I completly understand that racing is much different then running straight down the lake, but the perception comes back to bang for the buck.

Any thing we do with new boats and new engines is not going to be cheap.
It will need to be fast enough to get your attention, there will need to be manufacture support, and we will need to promote the class to get new people in. If we do it the motor should probably be a current EPA appproved engine so that it could be sold later on. It would be great to get a couple manufactures involved. Stock motors. Solid mounts and steering bars should be the only modifications allowed. If we look at this as a starter class the rigs need to safe and the equipment needs to be as bullet proof as possible.

We also need to look at the history of Super Sport. We need to see what things worked and what they could have improved to make the class better. Supersport came on strong, then seemed to decline and now seems to be building back up. Most of the rigs are in Region 5 where the class started and Danny did a great job of promoting the class.

Nice to see OPC talking about making some positive changes directed to
increasing membership. Keep going but I believe leaning toward engines from the shelf is the way to go, Who know's maybe my assesment that stock outboard is the breading ground for boatracing's future is now incorrect (can never be wrong) and OPC might be the place for new large increase membership

Pat Wright
Top Hydro

[catndahats]

exactly...

[QUOTE=washburn;91439]It looks like Sport C is alive and well in the WI and Mn. area from what we could see at the nationals. I would be very interesrested in hearing from the Sport C drivers why they feel that they have had success. One thing that I did observe was that they appear to work together and have FUN. This looks like a great class to start in if we could clone what they are doing on a national level. We need a place for people to start, that is not expensive, and is fun. They also seem to have a good number of races close to where the boats are located.

[14-H]

***
I think SLT while not an OPC class seems to be growing. The SLT's seem to be doing a good job of promoting their classes.

***.

The SLT's put on a heck-ov-a show this year at the Stock Outboard Big Rapids, MI race. I think the club that put that race on is thinking about running them at more of their races. It is a low-cost, fun ride that is fun also to watch.

Ed Hearn.

[racen7]

After market parts.

My son and I race in the inboard class. So I am on the outside looking in. I live in Kankakee and have seen and helped in every race there. The ball is in your court go after the A P B A an get that rule change guys. 120s are the future of OPC. As much as 60s and 45s.
Good luck
Racen7 @ Roostertails.net

[largecar91]

I think Jim will correct me if I am wrong, but I think his original question was to try to get a forged piston approved as a replacement because after 4-5 races the cast pistons are not durable. They break and the rod goes through the block, a lot of times this means a new block. Buying blocks gets expensive. racing is an expensive sport, but if we can do something to help reduce the costs and still be fair then wouldn't that be helpful to everyone? The example of replacing 6 sleeves in a block has been brought up as costing as much as a block. This is true but what if you have 3 sleeves and damage a 4th cylinder? Then the cost is minimal compared to a new block. And with a new block costing around $1500.00 racers cost, add to this the block prep work that is done on every top running engine and this brings the costs up a lot more. I know that not everyone(including me) has huge budgets for racing. I have a lot of fun racing and when it ceases to be fun and the costs get too great, then I guess it will be time to hang it up.

[race4kaos]

i'm not saying i'm against adopting alternative replacement parts, but let me explain the other side of the arguement.
if new forged pistons were approved (which i don't know if exist and what the quality or tolerances would be) then wouldn't the cost of everyone going out and buying these be expensive? would the people that have a stock of cast parts just be hosed? would mercury take it as a slap in the face and not continue to support the 120 as much as they do currently?
i do agree that in time allowing a 4th sleeve (and eventually maybe a 5th) may be in order to revive a few blocks. but allowing all 6 cylinders to be resleeved right now would open up a box we do not want. that would really increase costs to be on top of the competition.
i guess my point is there are 2 sides to every story. please think about them equally and then write your proposal accordingly. it is easy to shoot down someone's idea if the proposal doesn't consider every detail from every standpoint.

[washburn]

Six sleaves:my first response to this was that it was a good Idea. After additional consideration I agree with Kevin that this will probably open up a can of worms. The rule was put in to prevent people from resleaving the entire block from scratch and doing some extra port work that could not be measured. (There were a couple of teams that did this in the early days of 120 which resulted in this rule) I would be willing to bet that if 6 sleaves were allowed we would see a number of motors that were prisitne blocks that had a 6 sleaves. It will make more HP if done correctly and the guy trying to save a block will end up further behind. NEW Block + 6 sleaves + port work = more than the price of a new champblock.
The idea of going to 4 sleaves may be a good compromise to get some of the blocks that are out of service back in service. 4 sleaves would still invite some tampering if you had a large budget. After 4 major demolitions and numerous rebores, I would question if the block was worth saving. 4 sounds like a good idea to me but the drivers need to understand going in that some people will use the 4 sleaves to gain a slight performance advantage and not to repair an old block.

Pistons: The new pistons in 120 seem to hold up fairly well from what I understand. Keep in mind the top guys in Champ change pistons every 2 to 3 races. The merc 120 pistons are also very reasonable for the quality of piston. A forged top pin piston could be made for the 120. A good quality forged piston will be more expensive than the merc. From some initial research I did racer net would be about $15 to $30 more per piston than the current 120 piston's dealer cost. They would probably not be the same weight and the rings would be slightly thinner. I would question if the class would save money in the long run. The pistons you have now are much better than the original 120 pistons. After people figured out what the optimum clearences were, the forged pistons may have a slight perfomance advantage. It would be interesting to hear what some of the engine builders think about the differences. To answer Kevin's question if the forged pistons were better and offered a performance gain yes you would be hosed and would need to buy new pistons to be competitive.

[largecar91]

We should always be open to debate. You're right, there is always 2 sides to every story. I am sure that if anything gets changed, it will be a little at a time, but the answer to this problem is not; "It's racing and racing is expensive"! A lot of guys race on low budgets including me and anything to help save parts and still keep things on a level playing field is always a good idea..