Where do we draw the line?

[nbass]

Time and Cost for a Tohatsu 45SS

i understand your SO frustrations as i have read pages of posts on here.
OPC is a much smaller community and in worse shape for engines than SO.

i am interested (and personally curious) to get some real rough estimates to make your D motor with power trim. can you provide:
1. time to develop
2. costs to develop (tooling, your time, etc.)
3. costs of a complete final product
4. quantity that could be made available (year one and after)

I understand there an aftermarket hydraulic kick out unit available that you would probably use. I need some drawings and details before I could even make a reasonable guess at time and cost. The quantity that can be made available depends on what needs to be made and how is it paid for. Does someone want to buy 20 or more and pay up front, or is this a ones and twos thing to be sold as the racer decides this is what he wants. 20 or more is cheaper and quicker, ones and twos is risk free for the manufacturer and purchaser but will be made only as someone pays up front. Sorry, but we lack confidence the racing market.
Neil Bass

[DKLSST45]

Neil,

I think the trim ram could be hooked up with a adapter in the place of the trim pad you are using, we don't use much cylinder stroke.

What does electric start add to the price?
what is the price for the mid and lower unit seperate?

Just trying to get a idea for comparison

Not that I'm ready to junk all my OMC stuff just yet,, but what's down the road,, I don't know

[raceright]

Jim Summers Wrote:
"All 120 Racers would you all like to see a rule in place for Blue printed engines as long as it meets the spec? and also be able to run aftermarket pistons as long as they meet spec and weight? If you all feel this is a good idea lets vote it in". Jim Summers...Boat Racingfacts website


-This thread originated on Boat racing facts .com I transferred my reponse to this website to include everyone in this discussion........


I wrote:
I could'nt resist chiming in here....It has become clear to me in my two years of racing that discontent on behalf of the racers is a way of life. Many might argue that some people will never be happy and thats true. I think though that alot of the discontent and frustration in most racers comes from the real threat of our racing going away due to cir***stances beyond our control, cost too high, parts not available, etc etc,

45's, 60's and 120's are now faced with the huge dilema of parts. We are having to bend over backwards to stay on the water at a increasingly rising costs. I have had to struggle since day one to get parts, powerheads, gearcases etc and if it were'nt for the incredible comradery in the sport, racing would still be just a desire for me. Anyone who wants to get into racing right now has a huge uphill battle. We dont have enough new people coming into the sport because of limited resources!!! The problem is that those few people that are holding the sport together (as compared to those that focus on tearing it apart) will not always be there. We are starting to feel that pinch and boat racing is dying, slowly but surely. I am not a pessimist, I love racing, the people and the sport, but I will not hide my head in the sand. Ignore it and it will NOT go away!!

We as racers complain constantly but some how or another always keep racing....Why? because were settling. Were being tagged along by the promise of something that no one wants to question or really knows the answer to.

The rising cost of racing together with the constant struggle to get parts is causing the sport to see competition, participation and growth practically disappear. There is no level playing field and no effort to grow the sport. Everyone is to busy keeping their heads above water!!!

Sometimes you need to lose the battle to win the war.....

I know this started as a 120 question but it applies to all of us!!

TWO QUESTIONS:

-At the end of the day who really benefits form not being able to use aftermarket pistons, heads, etc????

-Who suffers from not being able to use aftermarket pistons, heads, etc????

I was with Dick Odea at the National meeting in Atlantic City in the 80"s he was offering after market pistons for OPC and the commission made them Illegal was the last day that Dick offered his services to Outboarders on a regular basis can't repeat what he said to me (Dan Will not allow it) here we are about 25 years later and you mean These Outboarders still think the same way I can't believe OPC feels this way. Neil has had a rough time with
the over supplied stock category(LOL) of course he will be very cautious with everyone else. When you have hurt the small engine builder or tuner
who is left. Yourself and some european mfg's(sounds like pro to me) soon to be the only place to buy new equiptment and believe me the more pro members the better but OPC commissioners and stock commissioners not this way please give youself a chance.

[nbass]

Costs

Neil,

I think the trim ram could be hooked up with a adapter in the place of the trim pad you are using, we don't use much cylinder stroke.

What does electric start add to the price?
what is the price for the mid and lower unit seperate?

Just trying to get a idea for comparison

Not that I'm ready to junk all my OMC stuff just yet,, but what's down the road,, I don't know

The best way to buy an OPC engine is to buy it with the trim and electric start w/o adding parts after purchase, add our lower unit through an adapter and go racing. We are backed by the North America distributor and we can provide a carbureted Tohatsu engine with trim and electric start at a very reasonable price. FYI, Tohatsu is a very large international manufacturer that makes engines and parts for other outboard manufacturers including Mercury. If you are serious about pursuing this, email me direct and provide you phone number. We need to discuss details off line.
Thanks,
Neil Bass

[Dave M]

Some Positive !

Kevin, you are taking the bull by the horns in OPC, keep up your go get them attitude, it is pleasant to watch this unfold.

Bass Bros., traditionaly OPC guys spend their dollars a little more easy than stock outboarders do. Another market for your engine would be fantastic. You might begin to see some profits after all the issues in stock. One thing to look at is your gearbox. Do you feel it would hold up with the in and out of the water the OPC boat do ? I think it would hold up decent, but I am not the designer. I am betting you could somehow adapt a trim system to your tower housings now. Might be a lot less tooling than a whole new system.

And to boot, all the guys that currently race a DSH Tohatsu, could potentially be a cross over to SST45. Talk about having it good !! Race Mod, Stock, and OPC with the same engine ! That sounds pretty cool if you think about it. Boats for SST45 are pretty cheap, used boats go for about the same as a big hydro new.

[Greg Jacobsen]

Mis-Information Plus and Alternative Viewpoint

"Who likes paying 200.00 each for special rods for the 45 motor,,,raise your hand!!!"

The above comment was posted by DKLSST45 - (not sure who that is since he has not signed his posts). That aside - I wanted to clear up the facts with respect to the SST-45 Rod - and its history. The SST-45 Rod is actually priced from Sea-Way to the racer at $130.00. The "Fishing Rod" would be priced with the same discount applied at $133.59 to the racer. We purposely priced the "Race Rod" less than the "Fishing Rod" - to avoid the exact statement made by DKLSST45. The SST-45 Race Rod was specifically designed by OMC engineers without the oil hole drilled in the wrist pin end of the Rod - therefore it is a different part designed by ENGINEERS for very specific application. Sure the Fishing Rod may work - but will it work as well over time? And since the Race Rod is actually priced less than the fishing rod - who would ever want to take the chance - you throw a rod - and you potentially have to replace a block.

The history of the OMC Race Parts and Sea-Way Marine - may bring to light the reasons on the other side of the argument. In 1998 OMC was for all intents and purposes out of the racing business. A very small number of people at OMC were keeping parts alive - behind the scenes because of there commitment to the sport. That was becoming harder and harder for them to do with the introduction of the Ficht Engines - and the company turmoil at the time. SST-60 parts in particular were becoming unavalible to racers at an alarming rate. I have my notes from that time and Jim Nerstrom and I concluded that over half of the critical parts for an SST-60 were unavaliable from OMC - (parts such as Adaptor, Midsection Bushings,Gearcase Housings, Sleeves,Clutch Dogs,Lower Pan, Cyl Head etc...) The reality was that parts avaliablity was not going to change so I proposed to purchase all of the Race Parts inventory, tooling, drawings etc... The agreement entered into in 1998 included the following statement.

"It is understood by both parties that the intention of entering into this agreement is to provide the Customer/Racer with better support and supply of racing parts"

Since that time I have manufactured and/or supplied almost every part for both the SST-45 and SST-60 - with considerable amount of my time and resources invested to do so. Let take the Rod for instance - when they became unavaliable two years ago - I agreed to make 200 more rods (Qty - 200 x $_____ =______ you do the math) - I also agreed to make sure that the price to the racer was less than the "Fishing Rod" - which it is.

My point is here that when you are talking about supplying specialty parts to such a small audience - the numbers just do not add up to split the pie - well at the same time trying to hold tight inspections standards and break even financially. I read the talk on these forums and I shake my head as to why the Bass Brothers, Ric Montoya and Ron Selewach would even consider doing what they are. I then I look in the mirror and understand that common sense flew out the window for them and I a long time ago. Good time right here to thank Mercury Marine, and in particular Fred Hauestien for continuing to build Champ & SST-120 engines and supply parts for them as well.

I have considered giving up making new parts for SST-45 and SST-60 - and now F3/Mod 50 - but at the end of the day I just can not do it - not sure why because it is a losing propostion in terms of time and money. Consider if the commision of today decided to make the "Fishing Rod' legal (and that is was priced less than the "Race Rod"). What would happen to the 200 rods and I made and my investment? Some very critical parts for SST-45 and SST-60 engines are becoming in short supply and I have to make a decision on whether to continue to manufacture and supply these parts (SST-45 Gear housings to name one). Because every day right now for me is consumed with the OMC V-6 Race project I have commited to - it would be easy for me to read comments such as that of DKLSST45 - and say no.

Greg Jacobsen

[race4kaos]

Jake

i appreciate you taking the time to reply here on hydroracer. your input is valuable...

i have a couple questions the commission should know soon.
45ss
1. how many racing rods do you have left?
2. do you have any idea why people think they are $200 each?

i understand racers wanting the fishing rod as well as they can found much cheaper by other methods. but we all need to understand sea-way's status (and any commitments opc has made to you).

V6
1. what is the status of the V6? i was hoping to see it run this year...

i appreciated sea-way when i was running 45.

[nbass]

Tohatsu 45ss costs

Kevin, you are taking the bull by the horns in OPC, keep up your go get them attitude, it is pleasant to watch this unfold.

Bass Bros., traditionaly OPC guys spend their dollars a little more easy than stock outboarders do. Another market for your engine would be fantastic. You might begin to see some profits after all the issues in stock. One thing to look at is your gearbox. Do you feel it would hold up with the in and out of the water the OPC boat do ? I think it would hold up decent, but I am not the designer. I am betting you could somehow adapt a trim system to your tower housings now. Might be a lot less tooling than a whole new system.

And to boot, all the guys that currently race a DSH Tohatsu, could potentially be a cross over to SST45. Talk about having it good !! Race Mod, Stock, and OPC with the same engine ! That sounds pretty cool if you think about it. Boats for SST45 are pretty cheap, used boats go for about the same as a big hydro new.

Thanks Dave, I think you have several good points. First, the crankshaft pins would need to be welded for an OPC endurance application. If we do it is a minimum of $500.

Sid and I talked over the lower unit design issue. Because the OPC boats are heavier, load the prop real hard in the turn, and run for long durations, we think a larger lower unit would be smart. Our lower unit works great for D-stock through FE, but we did not have OPC requirements in mind when we designed it. However, if someone wants to give it a try we can give some advise.

We are think a larger more durable lower unit will cost a minimum of $20,000 in tooling, and casting patterns to produce the first unit. This does not include lots of design and shop time we may absorb. If APBA or someone else wants to pay that cost, we can probably produce units in the $2000 range.

We still think the most economical and logical way to produce the engine is to use the stock tower and hydraulics and with an adapter add a racing lower unit. EPA authority under competition exclusion would be required; who knows what problems that will create. That adapter would include a water pump, new drive shaft and coupling, probably in range of about $1,500. The whole thing would cost a minimum of around $7,500 plus sales tax crating and shipping.

Bottom line, someone else needs to pay the tooling costs and deal with APBA. Probably will mean a proto-type engine and a probation period with written results of performance. I suggest APBA fund the whole prototype costs.
Thanks for being creative thinkers,
Neil Bass

[washburn]

I am not sure of all the issues that exist in 45 and 60 but most of the comments that I have heard revolved around pistons, blocks, heads, and aftermarket electrics. I doubt that any one is going to tool up and make rods, cranks, etc especially if factory parts are still available at fair prices as Greg has stated. I have heard some concerns over gearcaes and mids being available for both classes. I doubt that these could ever be an aftermarket product because of the cost to produce a limited number. Greg already has the tooling to make these. I am very interested to hear the feed back from the 45 and 60 guys on what their concerns are.

The 120 issue sounds different to me. My understanding is that Mercury is no longer building the motors and the 120 specific parts. If this is the case this could be a big problem in the very near future for existing or new people that want to enter this class. As I understand it the major concerns are pistons, being able to sleave the entire block, and being able to re-machine the heads to spec. I understand a couple of racers did not attend the nationals becuase of the as caste head rule. Their heads met the spec but were not the correct color and finish. If we can get more boats/engines by amending the rules and still maintain the integrity of the class (no perforamnce advantage) then all have won.
Mercury has been a major force in building the 120 class and supported it over the years but if they are in fact not making any new 120's then I fail to see the downside for Merc. Their banner is still being carried on the engine cowls of the biggest class in OPC. Mecury's Support of OPC over the years has been phenominal. I doubt that OPC has been a big money maker for them except for the exposure that they may have received
I am sure that the optimax in 120 will enter this thread at some point as the replacement engine for the 2.0 SST 120 motors. It would be interesting to hear how many of the guys in 120 would stay in the class if they were forced to make the switch to the Optimax motor. (remember if you comment on this do not say "never" because we will all be running 4-strokes or DFI eventually)

[Greg Jacobsen]

Kevin,

In response to your questions - I have a two or three year supply left given the current sales history.

As for the price of $200 - I suspect that DKLSST45 - pulled it out of thin air. I just ran a sales history on the PN from Sea-Way and we have not sold any for above the $130 Racer Price. Solutions to problems can only be found when we stick with the facts.

As for the OMC F1 Engine - When I purchased all of the F1 & F3 Parts and tooling from Cees I have been consistent in my statement that the motor would not be raced until I was satisfied that we were ready. Right now we have some additional testing to do - my hope however is that we will be in Savannah for the final Champ Boat event.

Greg Jacobsen

Below are some pictures of the motor:

[race4kaos]

Jake,

DKL is a newby. He's learning. I suspect he was quoting the great Ron Hill, who has put together many 45 lately. Maybe just an exaggeration...

How many parts is 2-3 years worth? We need to start thinking more than 1 year out. We need to plan our future rather than be a victim of cir***stances.

I will be in Savannah and hope the OMC makes it. Would you or Nathan be behind the wheel?

Thanks-

[DKLSST45]

Ok, This is a direct apology to Greg , I was given the price by a person who I thought new what the heck they were talking about. What I should have done is call you guys for confirmation on the prices,, evidently the person ,, who shall remain nameless at this point probably meant 200.00+ for the set but that is not what I was told.
I am a big enough person to admit I made a mistake in stating publicly a error in the facts and wish to retract my statement even to the point of deleting my post so no one else is missled as I was.

Greg ,, It is much appreciated what you do for the racing community, I do not blame you for your sentiment of giving it up,,, especially when you read misinterpeted information. I ask that you reconsider as we need people like you to help us move foreward in this Sport.

I was wrong plain and simple,,, but there are questions and confusuion about the rod issue. we still have seasoned racers who are confused and that is not your fault.

Your statement said there are no holes in the pin end in the legal rod,,, I was told the legal rod has no hole in the crank end cap. I have spoken to othere who have stated just the opposite,,, again not your fault,,, our rule book needs some clarification big time

I will now contact the person who made the erronious statement to me and personally set them straight myself,, and throw in a few extra words for making me look like a idiot,,, but I guess I did that on my own didn't I.

Thruth is rising cost are hitting us all,,, if we can save a little here or there it helps

The rod prices you have stated are not unreasonable all things considering.

[Greg Jacobsen]

DKLSST45 - Thanks for the response - I understand how these things happen. Glad that you are running SST-45 and have some opinions about your class. Your are correct about the fact that there is no hole in the Cap end - however that is not where the most probable point of failure is. The fact that there is no hole in the center of the webbing on the pin end is where the biggest difference is. Some early "Fishing Rods" had this hole and some later rods did not. The later Fishing Rods and Race Rods all have the pin end hole outside of the webbing. This is where you open Pandora's Box - and for what - when we have the properly designed Rod avaliable at a price less or below the "Fishing Rod".

Kevin - I said a 3-4 year supply given current sales history. We are in fine shape on the Rod - many other parts we may not be - like the Gear Case Housing as mentioned previously.

Surprise on the driver - if we do go to Savannah.

Greg Jacobsen

[DKLSST45]

Greg,

Thank you for your understanding, just so you know I have deleted my post on this site and another concerning the rod price issue. I hope you will accept my apology for the mix up,, my fault entirely. I also have stated the price mentioned by you just so there is No misunderstanding by anyone else.s

Kevin is correct that I am a first year 45 racer, this past season I raced on one motor that came with the rig I bought, thank God it was new and held up well. For 2008 I Intend to be at as many races as my job and time allow making a personel investment in many areas to improve my driving ability and engine stable. I have right now a need for 3-4 sets of legal rods As you can imagine my dilema when I thought I was facing paying 200.00 + each just for the rod,,, not to mention the rest of the work that goes into these motors as you are aware. That is partly what threw gas on the fire that somebody else started ,, again I should have checked it out myself first.

I am glad to hear that you are indeed working on what might be a alternate engine for another class, that just goes to prove your commitment to our sport and that you wish to see it grow as all of us do. I am happy with the SST45 Engine ,, I along with others are just concerned about the parts availability for the long haul. You don't really Owe us anything ,,,, we just hope you can continue to supply us the parts we need to be able to race these engines/ Mids/ and lowers. If so I think we all will feel a little better about what the future holds for our class which I think is on a upward swing in popularity. We are looking at adding several new drivers in Texas alone this year and I'm sure the same holds true in other parts of the country. We are working to get Boat racing back in the public eye again.

Thanks
Doug

[Jose Jr. 21]

First of all, thanks to Greg for the all support he has provided over the years.

We are all concerned about the 45 class and want all these drastic changes. I believe the class is just fine and will be fine for many years to come and sure some things may have to be tweaked down the road. It has survived all these years and it will continue too.

Here is something maybe we should take a look at about the class and address, which would help the "Future" of our sport and attract more people to get involved. Why has prize money not gone up in the last 8 or 9 years for this class?? Outstanding job by John Schubert to pull in as much money he did for that race in Orange, Tx.

Just pulled out an invoice from earlier this year, the price of a connecting rod after tax is $135.50.

Jose Jr.