Where do we draw the line?

[fernandez32112]

Jim Summers Wrote:
"All 120 Racers would you all like to see a rule in place for Blue printed engines as long as it meets the spec? and also be able to run aftermarket pistons as long as they meet spec and weight? If you all feel this is a good idea lets vote it in". Jim Summers...Boat Racingfacts website


-This thread originated on Boat racing facts .com I transferred my reponse to this website to include everyone in this discussion........


I wrote:
I could'nt resist chiming in here....It has become clear to me in my two years of racing that discontent on behalf of the racers is a way of life. Many might argue that some people will never be happy and thats true. I think though that alot of the discontent and frustration in most racers comes from the real threat of our racing going away due to cir***stances beyond our control, cost too high, parts not available, etc etc,

45's, 60's and 120's are now faced with the huge dilema of parts. We are having to bend over backwards to stay on the water at a increasingly rising costs. I have had to struggle since day one to get parts, powerheads, gearcases etc and if it were'nt for the incredible comradery in the sport, racing would still be just a desire for me. Anyone who wants to get into racing right now has a huge uphill battle. We dont have enough new people coming into the sport because of limited resources!!! The problem is that those few people that are holding the sport together (as compared to those that focus on tearing it apart) will not always be there. We are starting to feel that pinch and boat racing is dying, slowly but surely. I am not a pessimist, I love racing, the people and the sport, but I will not hide my head in the sand. Ignore it and it will NOT go away!!

We as racers complain constantly but some how or another always keep racing....Why? because were settling. Were being tagged along by the promise of something that no one wants to question or really knows the answer to.

The rising cost of racing together with the constant struggle to get parts is causing the sport to see competition, participation and growth practically disappear. There is no level playing field and no effort to grow the sport. Everyone is to busy keeping their heads above water!!!

Sometimes you need to lose the battle to win the war.....

I know this started as a 120 question but it applies to all of us!!

TWO QUESTIONS:

-At the end of the day who really benefits form not being able to use aftermarket pistons, heads, etc????

-Who suffers from not being able to use aftermarket pistons, heads, etc????

[catndahats]

What if?

What if the sport actually began to grow? I posed Fernandez's / Summers questions to Ron Hill yesterday, and his response was that the APBA would not allow aftermarket parts, PERIOD! He basically says the APBA wants to keep control and the status quo. What would happen if suddenly there was an influx of new people wanting to get into OPC?

Here's my position, I don't own a boat yet, but hope to get into 45sst for 2008. I think what I am saying holds true for 60sst and 120 classes as well. Personally, I think APBA should change the rules on aftermarket parts, if they spec out the same as OEM parts. Here's my reasoning: As someone new getting into OPC, I cannot get excited about the prospect of scrounging around the entire country for old parts (blocks, midsections, lower units, pistons, rods, etc...) at high prices so I can get out and start racing. What if you want to start out with a "new" motor? Well, you can't, they are not available from the OEM.

As an outsider, I thought OPC tunnel classes were the premier classes. But in reality, the newest 45ss motor is 20 years old! What's up with that? Is 45sst a vintage nostalgia class? It sounds rediculous to keep running 20 year old technology and OEM parts when the OEM's don't even support the classes by making new motors and parts available. The APBA's thinking just restricts how many new folks can get into the classes, and makes it frustrating for those already investing their time and money to keep their current motors running.

Sure, the people racing locally are great! They offer to help us rookies get started, but that means buying old parts....when I raced motorcycles, I found people rarely sell "good used" parts. If the parts were first class/new, they rarely come up for sale. I imagine it would be a rare event to find a "new" 20 year old motor laying around. So, you invest your money; buy a hull, build a motor from 20 year old parts---maybe (if you can afford them) buying NOS pistons/rods etc. at high prices, learn to drive....and hope the motor holds together.

Including myself, there are at least 2 or 3 guys wanting to start in 45sst next year in Texas. That would be almost a 100% increase in boats in Texas alone! That would be good for the sport. Are the rules helping us? Not in my opinion. I think that if the majority of racers feel as Alex, Summers, and others do, then we need to make our voices heard to the APBA, and get some of the rules changed for 2008.

Nate

[RabidGatorFan]

We definitely need more engines/parts for these classes. I will be new to SST45 this year, but I had to buy a complete rig from another guy who is stepping up to SST120. If this is how others get involved, the sport at best will maintain not grow.

There are still boat builders out there building boats. Sooner or later someone is going to have to build an engine to go on it. As a merc guy it pains me to say it, but the 45's and 60's that OMC built are solid engines for these classes. It is just too bad they don't produce them anymore.

[DougMc]

Has anyone considered the new D Bass motors for 45SS OPC?

I think 120SS OPC has new Merc motors and a lease program with an option to buy.

[jeff55v]

ditto

Has anyone considered the new D Bass motors for 45SS OPC?

That's funny Doug. I was thinking the same thing!
Hey Neil, Do you think Sid could build a towerhousing to take a Power T&T?

[MN1]

Has anyone considered the new D Bass motors for 45SS OPC?

That was the first thing I thought of when I saw the new Bass motor.
Maybe not run in SST 45 but a new class. I think the idea got shot down by OPC. Neil would know more.

Mark

[RabidGatorFan]

If the APBA won't let aftermarket parts for the EXISTING engines in , what makes any of us think they would let a whole new motor in the class?

[race4kaos]

opc...

opc and apba should not be viewed as this high, almighty entity that won't allow this or that.

it is very true that the current commission (made up of many old school inspectors, ex-racers, etc.) has not approved many replacement parts for several classes. their argument has been that racing parts are still ''available'. it would be harder for them to inspect more parts, and they are not the ones paying the premium prices. they also feel they should support the oem's that have these parts 'available'.

but there is a solution! the drivers simply need to take back the opc category. the opinion shared on this topic by word of mouth and websites is clear, but the commission has not either been presented with enough detailed proposals to be approved or are simply not intersted in doing so. i tend to believe it is some of both. so let's fix it...

'apba' will approve anything sound the opc commission submits. they are not stopping us from anything.

if you have opinions and want to be heard and involved, either run for commissioner or at least elect someone that will listen. then write the detailed proposals up to be submitted. have someone critique it and shoot holes thru it and revise. make it a sound bullet-proof proposal. i think [hope] the commission is going to change significantly this year. what has been rejected in the past may be approved this year.

it's time to make it easier to get into the sport for new people. it's time to control the increasing costs for current drivers. it's time to not just look at new engines for opc, but to actually decide on them and implement. it's time for change...

don't just point out the problems but become part of the solution-
KLadd - running for R6 commissioner

[washburn]

The region meetings for most of us are just around the corner. The availability of parts seems to be a growing problem in 45, 60 and 120. I would suggest that you all go to the region meetings and elect your commissioners. Tell them the problems you have and make suggestions that will be good for boat racing. Then make sure that they take your region's concerns to Detroit.
The goal of rules should be to make sure that everyone is on as level of a playing field as possible. The rules should also encourage the growth of the class or category. If the manufacture is not producing the parts we need to find a source of legal parts at a fair price. The key in the SST classes is that there should not be a performance advantage if aftermarket parts are approved.
If aftermarket parts, additional sleaves, machined heads to spec is what the racers want, will help grow the class, keep boats on the water, and make it more affordable, then we need to put together the rules and specs. We also need to make sure that the rules and specs will keep some of the innovative people in check.
My suggestion would be to discuss this with your OPC commisioners at the region meetings, get a general consensus of what the membership wants to do, have a clear plan of what we want by end of November so that we are ready for Detroit and let's make it happen.

Bruce Washburn

[Team B&H]

Class rule chage procedures do allow for a group of racers to collect a petition and with enough signatures on it, it bypasses the commission and goes directly to the ballot.

For those who don't know it, one of the few (only) times this was done was to establish the SST-120 class. OMC was heavily involved with their SST-60 & 100 programs and had enough pull to squash the 120 idea if it had been presented for commission approval. The idea was presented to Mike Butler at Mercury that existing SST-90 drivers would change their class to SST-120 if Mercury would assist them to make the change. He got the committment from Mercury and the drivers got the petition done from their end and voted to make the change. The result was the largest worldwide class in OPC racing. It was done with a petition, not commission approval.

You can do the same with aftermarket parts if you feel strongly enough about it to read the rules and do the paperwork rather than just complaining here!

[nbass]

Bass Tohatsu for 45SST

[QUOTE=DougMc;90661]Has anyone considered the new D Bass motors for 45SS OPC? QUOTE]

The 50HP Bass Tohatsu would probably make a fine 45SST. It was developed for D-stock, so there would need to be some new parts for the hydraulic kick-out attachment. Maybe we would use the stock tower and kick-out with a racing lower unit, but that would take a discussion with and approval by EPA.

However, we have had one bad experience with APBA and would not finance another bad venture without some drastic changes in how APBA works with new products. We would want some written promises up-front, some financial commitment from APBA and some understanding by the racing public. Racing products are an extremely small market, a unique market, an expensive market, is dependant on EPA approvals, requires lots of engineering, and on it goes. If someone wants to take up the banner for OPC or any other venue, I will provide the backing information but will not invest significant time or money until there are some agreements. I think the major manufacturers have pulled out of racing products for the very same problems we have faced.

As a retired boat racer I share your frustrations and love for the sport. Only radical change in attitudes and maybe leadership will save the sport. We also need to re-think our demands and move away from past concepts of racing. For stock, maybe we should be racing only products that you can buy at the corner boat dealer. That means some 4-cycles and maybe club lower units. Maybe we should allow for reasonable racing improvements to the current “corner boat dealer outboards” like aftermarket-adapted products such as racing lower units, heads and electronics.

Respectfully,
Neil Bass

[race4kaos]

neil...

i understand your SO frustrations as i have read pages of posts on here.
OPC is a much smaller community and in worse shape for engines than SO.

i am interested (and personally curious) to get some real rough estimates to make your D motor with power trim. can you provide:
1. time to develop
2. costs to develop (tooling, your time, etc.)
3. costs of a complete final product
4. quantity that could be made available (year one and after)

[BURKHARDT]

Petition

Kevin,

Why can't we get an online PETITION started.

Brian

[washburn]

Brian'
I believe Kevin is on the right track. Let's put togeher the plan and then run it through the commission. The petition to start 120 was a little different since it was also a replacement for SST140 and 90. We need to come up with a set of rules that the drivers racing the class are happy with and that will maintain the integreity of the class.

Bruce

[race4kaos]

petition...?

we have the commissioner elections coming up soon. then we have a month, some holidays, and a couple weeks. during that time, the proposals need to be written, gone over, & perfected. then we have the national meeting. that is when we should get our new/existing ideas in.
if for some reason something doesn't go thru that the drivers feel strongly about, the day after the national meeting would be the time to start it.
right now we have time and hopefully a fresh commission on our side...