20 SSH

[Matt Dagostino]

I hear you Howie and was at the meeting when that rationale was provided to help justify the compromise solution. A compromise solution is a lose lose outcome. This is the slow death pathway. Whatever the solution, make a decision for one engine and move forward.

Howie........what is the 'end game' of the 20ci Sidewinder in 20ssh as a voting Commissioner?. Is it a temporary playground in 20ssh to gain traction and move onto it's own class or maybe rejuvinate 25ssh? As far as i know there is no FACTORY position on this matter? Do you know something we don't?

You asked for solutions in lieu of 'whining' in a previous post. Ok, here is a solution:

1. Remove the sidewinder 20ci from the Yamato 20ssh class and put it in 25ssh as been hinted at by those in the Sidewinder 'loop' effective November 1, 2016.

2. Suggest to those 'heavy' people that want to run in 20ssh to run CSH or several other Stock Outboard classes that can accomadate a 'heavy' person.
FYI....not sure what constitutes a heavy person? I will have to consult with Gary Pond and get back to ya'll.

[tim king]

The one thing that I'm leaving out is that there are no average drivers running these motors. It may very will be that you put a average driver in the boat and they won't do so well. Both of the boats I see running the SW ether of them are going to run out front in any boat.

PS I do run CSH

[csh-2z]

For the hundredth time. The Sidewinder is in 20SSH and 25SSR because they are the only two classes that are run NATIONALLY ( in most Regions) that the motor fits in based on cu. in. Without the exposure in these classes, we will lose a manufacturer. How many regions are the B classes or 25SSH normally run in? Are any of you suggesting that we can grow these classes out of nothing in most Regions? I hope not because that would be insane. We need to be in 20SSH & 25SSR to showcase these motors everywhere in an effort save the B classes from extinction & to help this manufacturer succeed for our future benefit. How would the SORC expect a manufacturer to succeed with no nationally run classes. Would it be worth losing the only American outboard manufacturer besides Mercury, so you can continue to win with your Yamato 80 that hasn't been manufactured in 38 years? And by the way, what difference does it make that the guys beating you have a Yamato 302 or 321 or a Sidewinder? Is this a perfect set up? No. But neither are any of the other multi-motor classes. As things are right now, your best chance of winning 20SSH is with a 302 or 321 and yet all the complaints are about the Sidewinder.

[sponsonhead]

And that, sports fans, is how you drop the mic.

[Val16E]

For the hundredth time. The Sidewinder is in 20SSH and 25SSR because they are the only two classes that are run NATIONALLY ( in most Regions) that the motor fits in based on cu. in. Without the exposure in these classes, we will lose a manufacturer. How many regions are the B classes or 25SSH normally run in? Are any of you suggesting that we can grow these classes out of nothing in most Regions? I hope not because that would be insane. We need to be in 20SSH & 25SSR to showcase these motors everywhere in an effort save the B classes from extinction & to help this manufacturer succeed for our future benefit. How would the SORC expect a manufacturer to succeed with no nationally run classes. Would it be worth losing the only American outboard manufacturer besides Mercury, so you can continue to win with your Yamato 80 that hasn't been manufactured in 38 years? And by the way, what difference does it make that the guys beating you have a Yamato 302 or 321 or a Sidewinder? Is this a perfect set up? No. But neither are any of the other multi-motor classes. As things are right now, your best chance of winning 20SSH is with a 302 or 321 and yet all the complaints are about the Sidewinder.

As a member and someone who is looking to buy new motors as the sport evolves...I want to get a clear understanding. When are we intending to remove the sidewinder from the 20ssh class? I think a solid guess or plan would be helpful as it will affect purchases. Please advise.

[csh-2z]

There are no plans to remove the Sidewinder from 20SSH and it remains a co-motor of choice with the 300 series Yamato's. Currently, the "motor of choice" concept is the closest we have been able to get to a concrete plan for the future. As a member based organization that elects it's representatives annually, change or evolution flows with the speed of a glacier.

[pav225]

No worries Val,
You, me, and Mikey can run our 80s at Hinton :-)

[Fastjack]

When did silly season move to June ?

[csh-2z]

One other thing to take into consideration and this is very important. The B class weights are in the 365# range. Unless you have an ultra light (very expensive) boat a driver can't be over 175# or so and remain competitive weightwise. In the 25SSR & 20SSH classes a 200+# driver still has a viable option rather than being limited to C or D.

[PittmanRacing]

To clarify, I have not advocated in this forum for one engine or the other, rather, pick one for clarity in direction. Creating a place nationally for the SW by having it in 20SSH makes sense, however, this does not require that it be a co-motor of choice. Pick one or the other so there is clarity so everyone can make decisions for the future. My son will be getting bigger fast and the uncertainty makes 20SSH far less attractive. Think of this from a "new driver/team" perspective. Our sport is already limited in attractiveness for new people because of these things. The best attractions are J/AX and 300SSH for those new to racing. Beyond that, it is less attractive.

[Matt Dagostino]

Paul...........you are making to much sense here. Please stop.........)

[Matt Dagostino]

As a member based organization that elects it's representatives annually, change or evolution flows with the speed of a glacier.

Agreed............however it is amazing on occasion how quickly certain things can be 'lobbied' forward at the speed of sound through the SORC! Perhaps as a thought it is time to consider disbanding the SORC concept and move to the J Class Committee format. Look how successful the J Class has become under the watchful leadership of Steve Hearn and Ernie Dawe during their reign of over 10 years! The SORC has been bickering over the same ole things for 40 years. Maybe what is needed is a czar like Hearn to run the show. On his watch the J Classes became the most successful and fastest growing Division of APBA with wise engine choices and clear direction! Perhaps as veterans we should look at 'blueprints' that work in lieu of making the same ole mistakes over and over again. I remember well the days of the Mercury Challenge Series when Mercury came to the SORC and basically 'dictated' the way it was going to be to compete and make this series a success. For years they were right and we all followed the script and at least for those several years got a boost from a true leader in the Outboard Racing Business.

[Val16E]

If it's in 20ssh to just promote the motor for the classes that need it (b and 25) why make it a co motor of choice......? The need is in B and 25ssr, not 20ssh where there are other readily available options with fast parts and orders....Just another opinion from a driver in the class and makes me deliberate which motor to purchase next for the class

[csh-2z]

Val, It was made co-motor of choice because it is a currently manufactured motor that fits in the class with the full support of the SORC. It is a viable option for heavier drivers to get into the class and be competitive. By having that option it opens the door to a much larger customer base nationwide which is vital to the manufacturer and a positive for the growth of the class.
Keep in mind, that both the Sidewinder and the Yamato 302/321 options give drivers an opportunity to be competitive in other classes to enhance the value of each motor. More bang for the buck, I hear that said over and over again both in the pits and on these message boards. For you, I would recommend if you're going to focus on 20SSH, buy the Yamato (or a Sidewinder and 25 lbs. of lead to go with the 50lbs. you already have). The bottom line is more people can race this class and the SORC is in favor of growth.

Matt, Be careful what you ask for. I don't think you can convince anybody that there has been no controversy in the J category in the last 15 years. Just because you've taken the voice away from the membership doesn't mean there were no disagreements or complaints. It only means there was no other option. With 2 classes (with or without restrictor) it was nice to see the committee choose the new currently manufactured motor as motor of choice for the future (can you say "no brainer"?) Could you give me some specific examples of great decisions made be the J leadership that has created growth that definitely would not have occurred under the leadership of an elected commission?

Much like the motor / parity issues that we've had over the years, the bottom line is "what difference does it make to you that your being lead around the race course by Joe Pater in his 302 or Dylan Runne in his Sidewinder"? You're still losing! Using that same scenario, "What difference does it make if you're being lead by a commission or a czar"? Do you think everybody is going to be happy with the decisions of a czar any more than a commission? If a czar makes a decision you disagree with will you be mute? You may as well be because you've given up your voice.

There are a lot of things all of us would like to do differently in order to improve our sport, but change will have to come from the top down. At the last APBA national meeting, I counted 7-9 members of the BOD that are hindering our future simply because they won't let go of the past. And as long as they keep running for re-election people will keep voting for them simply due to name recognition.

If nominated, I would love to serve on the BOD but I doubt I could get enough votes to beat an incumbent.


John Runne

[Matt Dagostino]

Johnny.........following your logic as a senior SORC member why not have the braintrust on the SORC put he Sidewinder in 300ssh to make the class attractive for the 'heavy' new members to get into and let the chips fall where they will. After all, who cares whether you get beat by a Yamato or a Sidewinder in the same class. I guess having 2 available engines in Stock outboard classes is the new trend? It appears your 'one engine one class' philosophy has gone out of vogue like my flip phone. Rock on my friend.

[csh-2z]

Matt, I think that is the first time anybody has suggested that. Interesting. How well do you think that would go over. As far as the "one motor per class" philosophy, I will always believe that should be the goal. However, that would mean the phasing out of some of our older motors. Until we solve the economic issues in putting on races, I don't see any way to overcome the resistance from a significant portion of our current membership.
Flip phones are out of vogue? You keep thinking, you're bound to come up with a good idea eventually!

[Lee Sutter]

Below are some lap times from Lake Cullaby race yesterday.
50.6 sec. Lewis CSH 302,
53.0 sec. Korpe 20ssh 302,
53.4 sec. Adams 20ssh 302,
56.5 sec. Bahl 20ssh SW.
j Michael Kelly won 20ssh with a 302 with 2 second place finishes. The Sidewinder was running about 4th place.
It was rough and windy with eliminations.
A very telling day.

[Racerkyle20]

I think I got 5th overall Saturday and 4th on Sunday out of 11 boats. I ran a deck to deck race out front with Aaron Adams on Sunday for a Second place finish in heat 1. Heat 2 on Sunday I was the meat in an 8 boat sandwich in turn 1. Finished like 7th. Someone was called for a chop on me, but damage was done. I couldn't get back in the mix with the rough behind 6-7 yamatos.

I think in 4 heats over the weekend I placed 2nd once, 3rd once, and was mid pack in the other two. JMK and Arron Adams had me for sure.

[Howie Nichols]

HYPOTHETICAL CZAR PHILOSOPHY - Not that I agree with the idea but how many people do you think would get angry at the idea and just leave our already dwindling numbers?? Based on your thoughts, here is what the new class structure COULD be:

ASR / ASH - Sidewinder 15
BSR / BSH - Sidewinder 20 restricted
CSR / CSH - Yamato 302
DSR / DSH - Tohatsu
20SSR / 20SSH - Yamato 302 restricted
25SSR / 25SSH - Sidewinder 20
300SSR / 300SSH - Yamato 321

That's it, no 2 engine classes, all motors eliminated can run in the Stock Classic's - OMC is gone, Merc is gone, Yamato 80 is gone, Yamato 102 is gone, 45 is gone. When classes can't sustain themselves in say 3 regions for 3 consecutive years they are gone too.

Just imagine how much the rule book will be altered (not that it doesn't need it) with the CZAR thinking.

Is this what you are looking for? Just saying grass is not always greener on the other side

[dwhitford]

Howie, why would the Sidewinder 20 be RESTRICTED for BSR-BSH in your hypothetical lineup? The Sidewinder 20 IS a B-Stock engine, isn't it?

[deeougee]

Here Howie I'll help you out a bit more.

A Sidewinder 15
B Sidewinder 20
C Yamato 302
D Tohatsu
300 SS Yamato 321

Engines for all hydro/runabout classes unrestricted. No more ci mixing, etc. Really don't like the 302 for C classes because of engine availability issues. Should be using all current production engines. It doesn't get much simpler than this. Everything else to mod. Is this realistic? Probably not.

[Howie Nichols]

Dave, The current B class uses the SW 20 restricted.

I know I could have trimmed more, but I'm pretty sure they wanted the SW 20 (unrestricted) on a bigger boat.

I left the 302 in the C class because I can buy one of those (although not new) I can't buy a 321 right now, they have been on order since Feb with a possible July delivery date (maybe) Now with the challenges of overheating issue I don't think I want one. The SORC should NOT allow any modification to the tower to fix this either....