20 SSH

[pav225]

Has to be close.

Good videos.

[HydroKyle93R]

For sure, Don. 68 miles per hour is not that far fetched in 20ssH or CSR. At Castle Rock, Guido was running 20ss in a boat of his own design and claimed to see over 70 on the racecourse. Bahl did 68 through the quarter-mile running his competition set-up. Unfortunately, the consequence for going this fast in 20ssH is that the motor does not get water. Perhaps my retort to deeougee was premature; I agree that two motors in one class will ultimately have unfavorable results. Especially because the 20ss class in the most popular.

[deeougee]

You know what has been lost in this conversation? What do the 20SW people want? I like the solution north of the border. No one wanted to run with the Yamato's because of the sloppy water the yamato produces and why mess with a good thing that is already going on in 20SSH. The 20 SW engine and boat are run at 400lbs and 1/2" below the bottom. Right out of the box, no motor mods, nothing, just testing different prop and set-up combinations produced 67+ mph after the first month of testing. That was 2 years ago. The speeds and handling that the 20SW produce is impressive to say the least. I have yet to see one run in region 6 in 20SSH. Everyone is running them in BSH in accordance to APBA rules from what I saw at Grass Lake. From testing, moving the engine up or down 1/2" will change the boat speed 2 mph accordingly up or down. I just wish everyone would get on the same page with this engine.

[Charlie Pater]

I understand the original reason for allowing the Sidewinder B into the 20 ssh class was to provide an opportunity for Sidewinder purchasers to run another class. The argument was that eventually there be enough B Sidewinder motor owners to form a class of their own. At that time, it was argued that the motor would not be the motor of choice in 20 ssh and that it would never be made the motor of choice. Since then things have changed and there are many opinions as to whether the changes are for the good or not (I am not opening that can of worms). I do believe because of the technical differences between the Sidewinder and Yamato motors that it is nearly impossible to set rules that would make the two motors perform the same on all race courses. As the Sidewinder motors become more competitive, the SORC will have to resolve the conflicts that evolve.

[Lee Sutter]

Why would anybody want the SW to dominate the 20 class? It's the biggest class in stock racing. If it does, all the Yamato 20 racers will have to spend a bunch of money ($10k) to get a new rig. All that is needed is a boat, motor and props. I think the best solution is to put the new SW in the B class exclusively and let em rip. Lot's of Yamato racers will buy a SW to run in B class if they don't get forced out of 20. The largest potential pool of buyer of the SW 20's are the Yamato owners.
The biggest issue is availability.
This could be a great opportunity for Stock Outboard racers. I'm rooting for both engines to succeed in their own separate classes.

[deeougee]

Totally agree Lee. I have a question and it was put forth in the BSR post. The B classes use to run the Merc 20h, a 20 cubic inch motor. How did they go from a 20 cube motor to a 15? I had even thought of buying the SW powerhead and mounting it on a Hotrod lower unit. There is someone who has done this and there is no difference in performance as compared to a complete SW engine. This could work for someone on a budget wanting to get in on the action.

[Lee Sutter]

deeougee, go into the apba racing website and find the "Stock" rule book and I think the history of each class is documented. It tells the story you might be looking for. Maybe Big Don can help you navigate to find if you are having trouble. It helped me figure out how the SORC made some decisions that were hard to understand.

[GrandpaRacer]

The old B class was the 20H and the 20cu inch Hot Rod. Even with out height restrictions then I think the new 20 cu inch SW is a little faster.

[Matt Dagostino]

As the Sidewinder motors become more competitive, the SORC will have to resolve the conflicts that evolve.

Charlie............good luck with that one in 20ssh. The SORC recently made the Sidewinder the co-motor of choice (whatever that means) in the class. So now we have two 'available' motors in one class.

[deeougee]

Here's some more food for thought. The majority of 20SSH engines that are running up front are blue printed engines, the motors are pretty well maxed out. I'm am pretty confident that a box stock 20 SW at 1/2" below the bottom of the boat will out run a top running yamato engine, especially on a short course. So, if the engine were even with the bottom of the boat we would be looking at speeds around 72 +/- mph with a box stock motor. This scenario was discussed north of the border and in the end in the interest of safety the height was set at 1/2" below the bottom of the boat. You can run 25SSH with this setup in APBA. So how much more is left in this 20 SW engine. I can tell you plenty! Is this about being able to use this engine in more than one class? We don't with the A and D engines. So what is this situation really about?

[Racerkyle20]

The height restriction for the sidewinder in 20SSH is 1 inch below the bottom, so I'm not sure discussing what the motor 'could do' at 1/2 inch below has to do with anything. A yamato in CSH could go 72+ MPH at 1/2 inch below the bottom too, but that's not the rule.....

[deeougee]

Here's what testing the engine at different heights does for you. It allows you to make informed decisions! Something that the SORC does in a disjointed fashion in my opinion. Why is there not a technical advisory committee that reports to the SORC? Their job would be to test new motors, etc. under a variety scenarios and report their findings to the SORC. Then an informed decision on what to do with the motor can be made! By the way I know people who have tested different set-up heights etc. with this engine so the numbers I put forth are real!

[Big Don]

My observations from Constantine last weekend. 20SSH had I believe 18 entries. Good mix of drivers and engines, 302’s, 80’s & Sidewinders.

Dylan Runne won the 1 elim with Sidewinder power, my honest thought after Dylan’s heat was, he looked very fast and we were in trouble. Joe Pater won the second elim 302 power., Thomas Allen 2^nd to Pater with 80 power.

Final on Saturday, Pater beat the field by about 5 seconds or more, Thomas Allen 2^nd beat Dylan Runne by a boat length at the finish. What should be noted is Thomas was probably 5^th coming out of the first turn about 8 to 10 boat length back and it took all three laps to pass Dylan. Was fun to watch.

Knowing the Runne’s, I’m 100% positive they had their good stuff on. I’ve never known them to not want to win on any weekend. Now did they have their # 1 wheel on? Don’t know, but I can tell you I know we didn’t, so it would not surprise me that they didn’t nor Joe Pater.

Maybe the Sidewinder owners find more speed with hard work and money but at this time I don’t feel they have enough to beat the top Yamato’s.

Maybe the Gleason/Bahl rig is faster?

[Matt Dagostino]

As you said in a earlier post Hinton will tell the story where the course will be FAST and all the cards will be on the table..........

[Ericwienczak]

I have saturdays 20 final on video. I will post it within the next few days .

[Ericwienczak]

Here is saturdays 20 final

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieiWovQS5-M

[csh-2z]

If there was something faster in the trailer, I don't know about it. As things are now we can compete with most of the Y80's & 302's that we've been up against, but not the upper echelon. To answer the other question asked about why is the SW in the class in the first place. In order for the sidewinder to get national exposure it has to be run in a class that is run everywhere. Trust me, we don't like running against Yamato's any more than most of you want us there. Although the challenge is motivating. If you want us out of the class, then help us build the B classes nationally.

[PittmanRacing]

Uncertainty in any category or class will cause a slow death. That is what has happened to several categories and classes. Why is 300SSH growing? A willingness to make decisions to remove the uncertainty, even with new engines. Sounds like the solution is to help encourage/promote more B Sidewinders, improve their reliability, then make a decision of a single motor of choice for each class.

[Matt Dagostino]

Well said Paul.........the SORC a few years ago made a commitment to designate a MOTOR OF CHOICE in every class to remove the uncertainty you refer to. Recently they named the Sidewinder a co-motor of choice in 20ssh with the Yamato. Not sure what's up with that. The goal of 'one motor-one class' is a good one to remove uncertainty and provide a clear path. This current decision is puzzling to make 2 motors of choice in the second biggest class in APBA.

[Howie Nichols]

Matt,
It has been explained the reason for 2 motors of choice. In Chicago this topic was beat around for a while. Like it or not it was thought the SW could be the motor for the heavier driver and the Yamato could be the motor for the lighter driver, no other reason just that.

So what are the solutions here for the class? Put it out there and see where it goes, perhaps something good will come out so you the members can give the SORC the direction to look at.

[Charlie Pater]

I like the direction of this conversation. It would be nice if the Sidewinder people would actually promote the B classes for new Sidewinder motors. Maybe offering new motors as prizes for winning the nationals in B hydro and B runabout with new Sidewinders like the Yamato people did some time ago. Or significant cash prizes for winning with newly purchased Sidewinders.. They could also lobby for the Sidewinders to be the motor of choice in 25 ssh. Actually, there are probably many other ideas for promoting the Sidewinders. The key is to promote the product. Seams to me riding on the coattails of the Yamatos is not really promoting their products.

[stockc]

Dear SORC,

In your view, has a parity decision ever been made in which all affected parties impacted felt the playing field was rendered completely equal?

I speculate not. Regardless, why did the SORC willfully interject this monkey wrench into what is being professed as perhaps the strongest stock outboard class in the APBA? Clearly participation in 20ssh is strongly standing on its own merits. The likely fall out of this meddling is a lot of wasted time, expense and certainly a component of participant dissatisfaction.

For the record, my views are in no way influenced from having the opportunity to get beat by Kyle Bahl at times this year(-: Secondly, to fend off any civics lectures I voted NO.

Ken McMurphy

[PittmanRacing]

I hear you Howie and was at the meeting when that rationale was provided to help justify the compromise solution. A compromise solution is a lose lose outcome. This is the slow death pathway. Whatever the solution, make a decision for one engine and move forward.

[tim king]

I didn't start this thread because it was any disadvantage to me. I don't even run 20s I'm 40 pounds over weight. I have ran it in the past and it just takes me a lot longer to get to speed. I just think for the average guy who has spent a lot of time and effort in the class.To have someone bye one of these motors and put it on the very first boat that they get. And get a prop from who ever. Any prop maker knows what prop will work with these motors. To be able to even run up front is discouraging for that person. It's kinda like buying your way in. By just adding more weight to the boat would put them back running with the average guy. They haven't even really got them dialed in yet. I think they are on the first boat still. Maybe I'm way out of place however isn't this what forums are for?