Looking for feedback on an idea

[bill boyes]

I had another senior moment. The Merc in the ASX classes does not have a restrictor. GEZZ

[alky6]

AXS as a novice class?

Probably not germaine to the discussion, and may show my ignorance on AXSH, but if it is truly a stepping stone class, why not set it up so that you can only race in the class for say four (4) years (or whatever number of years is reasonable). This would include any experience in other racing classes (except for the J kids). In other words a seasoned veteran who has raced for more than four years would not be eligible to run AXS. Then you would have a true stepping stone class that provides a level playing field in regards to the experience of the driver. I believe this was done in the past with Novice 350. This might eliminate the perceived problem of having "15 c.i motors running all day."

-Paul Fuchslin

[propnuts]

I asked for it..

First of all my name is Tony Perman, not trying to hide my identity, I just assumed everyone knew (I know about ass-u-me). As I recall there was originally restrictions on how long you could run AXS, but they went out the window for some reason. I find the idea that this is a 'kids stepping stone' class somewhat laughable considering they are out there running with adults at speeds roughly 3MPH slower than ASH speed. As to Merc-OMC parity, that really wasn't the point, as I said originally, it's a matter of perception. The masses have spoken, and they have said the same thing they always do, "we need less classes, but we need this one". Thanks for the feedback, file this one under NOT HAPPENING.

Tony Perman
Moby Grape Racing
31R for a short and unglorious career

[G Stillwill]

Since this issue keeps coming up with the AX classes lets see just how much those classes make the clubs that put the races on. So far up to this point in the season there have been 2552 races in the AXSR and AXSH classes. At an average entry fee of 20.00 that comes to a total of 51,040.00 the clubs have made off those two classes. Not to bad for a class that some are detemined to get ride of. As far as the age limit the J division decided to do away with the and just reduce the min weight limit down to a weight that most adults cannot make. Look to fix something thats broke not something that is growing faster then any other class.

[Tomtall]

What?

I find the idea that this is a 'kids stepping stone' class somewhat laughable considering they are out there running with adults at speeds roughly 3MPH slower than ASH speed. As to Merc-OMC parity, that really wasn't the point,

Tony - You must have a lot of adults running AX on the west coast because the races we have been too have all been 18 years old and younger racing AX. Unless your a 130 lb adult you are going to be at a serious handicap. On the speed differance maybe 5 mph with a lot less punch. I am one parent who am glad to see the junior classes set up the way they are. I think having two classes helps build the kids racing skills over the years until they feel they can run with the adults in the "A" class. I know the point wasn't about the Merc./OMC parity, It's been beat to death on another thread. However by wanting to lowering "A" class speed the writing was on the wall to do away with AX class.

George - You make valid points.


For those racers that want a shorter race day - If you want less time for the kids to go and race and have fun and more time to B.S. and drink beer in the pits I suggest you look in the phone book under "AA", you need help.


Mark Wheeler and Ernie Dawe - Thanks for all your hard work over the past few years with the "J" classes. I know it hasn't been easy for you guys.

[Brett L. Pruett]

Wait a minute

I think having two classes helps build the kids racing skills over the years until they feel they can run with the adults in the "A" class.

Kinda sounds like your saying that I should be in the AX class Tom (LOL)

Another thing for us was age vs. weight. A 14yo kid that couldn't compete in the "J"s that would be too young to move up to the "A" class, (that his father used the same boat & engine).

[Cameraboy]

Not intending to question what people are saying, just throwing some other thoughts out. I think where Tony was intending to go may have gotten sideways in the discussion. The idea would be to keep everybody in ASH and AXSH racing, not to have AXS racers go away and never race again. Of course AXSH is popular and growing; meanwhile ASH is stagnant. Parents are apparently comfortable with a 12 year old making the jump from a 40-42 mph JH to a 53-55 mph AXSH, but not another 4 mph to ASH. OK, that I understand. But we're not comfortable with a 14 year old making the jump from a 53-55 mph ride to a 62-63 mph 15ssh? Yeah, it's different ride - but anytime you go to a different motor, it's a different ride.

If you combine AXSH and ASH at the current AXS speeds, then yes, ASH folks that want to go faster than that will be pissed. So run 15ss - it's intended in the the Plan to be the faster class for lighter drivers, and it has a new motor available.

The AXS weight issue. Kids are bigger now (and I don't mean chubbier). It's not just adults impacted by the lower weight. I know 3 kids kids out here in the 12-14 age range that are well over 130 lbs. One of them is a novice - he's too big for both J and AXS, too young for A. I think Paul's approach made more sense - leave the weight alone, and if you're over 16, you have 4 years to run the class. But I guess that's a dead horse under the bridge.

Aside from the speed issue, AXS is:

1. A second ride for 12 year old J drivers
2. A second ride for 14 year old A drivers
3. A third ride for 14 year drivers who run J and A.

I'm all for giving the kids more rides, but is this the best way to do it? On the other hand (under current rules), without AXS a kid can't run anything but J from 9-14.

[Jeff Brewster 59s]

chubby kids

My son Ryan has raced J for two years. I put him on the scales last Saturday and he weighed 330!!! AXSH weight with a JSH!!
He has turned 12 this week and now will be able to race AXS and be on weight with the rest of his competitors. Boy, is he excited about that!
When AXS came I cringed cause the last thing we need is another class.
It has been a god send for my boys to have a stepping stone.
Sorry, George but I wish they would have made a cap of 17 years old like they intended to do in the first place.
If there wasn't AXS what would my son do???? Probably quit.

[Teri Ziemer]

I think that throughout the country there may be varying reasons for the views on AXS. I agree that we have too many classes and that sometimes the issue of "spectator confusion" arises when one engine is run in various classes, but (especially in Region 11) consider these thoughts:
- a family of 3, w/ varying ages of kids/adults, can run 3 classes w/ 1 boat and motor for a reasonable investment. A good selling point to someone looking to get into the sport.
- in our Region, if restrictions on age or time limit were imposed, the class would cease to exist. It allows for younger drivers to have a chance to ease into a faster class, yet it can be "filled out" by drivers with more experience and used as a teaching experience (thank you Tony Lombardo, Pam Wilde, and all the others who have taught Lauren so much!!)
- trying to keep track of how long someone has run a class and who is and isn't elligible is a nightmare!

I would like to see the AXS classes kept as they currently are.

Teri

[jpro60]

K pro

I'm not sure if people will think this is on topic or not but in answer to cameraboys' statement "On the other hand (under current rules), without AXS a kid can't run anything but J from 9-14." I and everyone else when I was transitioning from J to A ran J pro (K pro now). J pro did everything for me that everyone is saying makes AXS so great, only with rules that would satisfy more people i.e. a maximum age. It gave me more seat time, got me used to the faster speeds, and I was able to do it with just other kids. I know it’s faster than AXS and that might make some parents nervous but I think it’s a good thing. I've seen a couple kids transition from AXS to A and mentally tweak out over a mere 3-4mph faster. (The difference between a good and bad prop). And the kids are also unprepared for the TINY bit looser that A speeds make the boat. When I transitioned to A I had problems because I was racing with the big boys, but I didn't have discomfort with the speeds added to that.
Just wondering what happened to Kpro and why parents don't think it’s as good a stepping-stone. Is it because it’s a few mph faster? Or because its not a J category class? Or some other reason I can't even think of?

Mike Perman
1-US, US-1, 32-R

P.S. I'm an A racer and I would be fine with going a little slower. I've run both classes and can't tell enough difference to get upset over.

[Kristi Ellison]

KPH is alive and well on the USTS and I think many other clubs around the country are running it along with the J and AXH Stock classes. Many of the local AXH and JSH kids will come and run KPH with us and they do a very good job. I understand KPH and ASH are very close in speed and some parents get nervous. Sometimes as a parent I don't think we give the kids enough credit for what they are capable of.
We had 4 kids move from KPH to 125H this year. Their ages range from 14-17 that is jumping from 55mph to 75mph and a class with 6 boats driven by other kids to a class with 17-20 boats, driven by adults and having eliminations. I was holding my breath and much to my surprise these kids drive the 125H's better then they ever ran the KPH's. All four of them ( yes one is mine) have done a superb job this year and they have all driven safe and stayed in the boats.
It makes me wonder if somewhere along the way we have gotten more protective then our parents or if our parents were just crazy when they threw us in a boat!!
My question is; is the couple miles an hour really that big a difference between AXH and ASH or is it the age that is a problem?

[ricochet112]

Until the Sidewinder comes into retail production, nothing's going to change.

That will help us, Brian can get more AXS seat time, while I dial in his A setup, good for both of us.

We don't run KPro because of the height difference.

Once the Sidewinder does become available it will be tough decision time for Ernie and Mark, go with the OMC, Merc, Sidewinder? One, two or all three?
But if the Sidewinder doesn't come out this winter for the '08 season, well...

[Matt Dagostino]

Axsh & Axsr.....................

The AX classes have proven that the 'market' will sort itself out in time and the market has shown that AXSH & AXSR are a huge hit for several reasons. First and formost is that the powerplants are readily available and affordable. Also now that people are 'setting' the Merc's up properly thay are proving reliable and competitive to each other.

We believe their should be no age restriction with the exception of HOC eligibility, it should be 21 years of age max as not to penalize the kids from APBA's highest honor. The class has turned into a catch all. You have JSH and JSR kids moving up, you have older participants that feel more comfortable at a slightly slower speed than ASH and ASR, you have beginners that like it cause a 'new' motor is available, and it gives the girls a comfortable place to race. IT ALL WORKS and if it stays in the hands of the J Class Committee and out of the SORC's reach it will continue to grow!!

As a footnote we feel ASH and ASR will continue to die on the vine unless the OMC 15 goes away. It is sooooooo hard to get a front running motor. It is now like the old KG-4 days where you need this case and this block, blah blah blah....... People just don't have the skills to hunt down all that stuff and then still possibly have a pouch motor!! The Merc's and the restricted OMC's in AX however allow the competitor to enter a more level playing field.

Have a nice day

Matt & Val

[KG4]

Didnt one of the Hagerls run the merc in A?I thought i remember him running it and doing very well.I could be wrong.Can anything be done to the merc to make it competitive with the omc in A?

[Mark 72@E]

AXS verses A Stock

My question is; is the couple miles an hour really that big a difference between AXH and ASH or is it the age that is a problem?

After running 8 races over two seasons in AXSH, I finally allowed Austin to run ASH. In my opinion, AXS verses A Stock is less about speed and more about the mentality of the competitors.

I've watched from a turn boat as adult AXSH drivers like George Stillwill and Ron France have given a full inside lane to a younger driver even when they didn't have to. They both get it -- they understand AXS is a training class for younger, less experienced drivers and not the place to intimidate a rookie.

I didn't want Austin to "run with the big dogs" in ASH until I thought he was ready. A Stock is a higher (and fiercer) level of competition.