New Motors...

[tborisch]

Hey All,

I am looking to understand what is involved in getting a new motor into the world of outboard racing. I am completely out of the loop so to speak.

I have a fairly large machine shop (12+ CNC's, etc), and would like to take a crack at building a motor. If I take a Y-80, and build a "newer" version of it, would that be worth my time? Would there be a ton of resistance in the ranks to getting it out on the race course?

Anyway. It seems like there is call for a newer motor that uses standard parts, but is built with racers in mind. I know the sidewinder is coming out, but is there anybody else?

Looking forward to your responses.
Thanks,
Tom

[T Chance]

Why not build a Pro motor. Build a one-of-a-kind or build 100. And you will have no parity committee, no rejection, no bs, no complaints to deal with - It will be legal and accepted. Plus burning methanol and castor oil has a pleasant odor whereas gas and oil smells bad.

[tborisch]

PRO motor.

What are the rules, just has to be a certain number of cc's?

Tom

[HRTV]

Hey All,

I am looking to understand what is involved in getting a new motor into the world of outboard racing. I am completely out of the loop so to speak.

I have a fairly large machine shop (12+ CNC's, etc), and would like to take a crack at building a motor. If I take a Y-80, and build a "newer" version of it, would that be worth my time? Would there be a ton of resistance in the ranks to getting it out on the race course?

Anyway. It seems like there is call for a newer motor that uses standard parts, but is built with racers in mind. I know the sidewinder is coming out, but is there anybody else?

Looking forward to your responses.
Thanks,
Tom

Truth be told there is no reason for anyone to stay up all night trying to reinvent the wheel or produce a new outboard motor just for racing. Mercury & JonRude make all the motors we need, the only thing missing is a universal mid section with an adapter plate to accept the Merc or JonRude. Make a set of plates for each motor and the problem is solved! Everyone seems to have forgotten that it is called "Stock" Outboard the "new" kid should be able to pick up a Johnson 15hp power head from any dealer in the US drop it on a APBA universal mid section and go racing! case closed.

[T Chance]

What are the rules, just has to be a certain number of cc's?

Tom

You got it! There are quite a few "home built" running in the 125 c.c. class. Both runabout and hydro. They have been built from mixed-and-matched motorcycle or go kart engines and then put on an available lower unit. Go to APBA's website and look at the technical rule book. Also go to the U.S. Title Series site and you can link to motor sites and see what is available from European mfg's: Arens, VRP, Rossi, and Konny. In addition to complete motors they have components such as lower units, ignition, carburetors, etc.

[dholt]

Dan, et al..

You guys really want to race four stroke outboards in stock racing? That is all the mfgs. are making now.

That is a road filled with way too many pitfalls.

Plus, there is no guarantee from the major mfgs. of how long an engine will be produced. They change all the time. And a 15ci motor from one mfg. is certainly different than from another. Performance issues would be all over the place.

[Dave M]

Not All Of us

Like to go that slow as in stock. Some of us also like to tweak things a little to try and gain an advantage. This is why there are categories. You can't lump everything to stock outboard. What would be nice is to lump Stock and Mod into one structure. Eliminate a lot of classes down to a manageble level and run both at all events for a stock/mod event. When I say eliminate classes I mean just that, get rid of them on paper. Allow them to compete in similar classes so they still have a place to race. Basic Run down:
A
B
C
D
E

Both hydro and runabout. Run the stock program off then run the Mod program off. Or vica versa if you wish. Add the Junior class in there and I think you have a very manageble program for a day. You might actually eat supper in the daylight in the middle of the summer.

[HRTV]

HERE HERE DAN, you are a very very smart man! what is going on around here anyway!

lets all run stock reliable, easy to start motors AND RACE!

Thanks-todd

Most members here would not agree with you about me being a "smart man" comments like mine tend to get you black listed real quick in this sport.

[473M]

Now Dave you were at Constantine and we were done both days at 5:30 PM i think that is a well managed day.

In regards to running Fishing motors as we did in the past. The big issue is a lot of the stuff made today has rpm limiters on them. The SORC and the Mod commision have been working for a few years now on a Honda four stroke 20 hp outboard and have no luck getting around the rev limiter. and we all know that 5500 RPM just wont do it.

[Al Peffley]

A Few Thoughts on Motors

Hi Tom,

I appreciate your interest in making a new outboard motor. There are three major areas of equipment availability shortfalls in our current outboard motor selections for Stock, Mod, and Pro classes, in my view. First let's take the classes in alphabetical order and review the motor equipment status:

Stock/Mod:

J Class - The new Mercury 15hp motor and existing OMC stuff works fine.
A Class - The old JonRude stuff seems to be holding up; let the incombants
propose and offer a replacement: Mercury/Bombadier/Sidewinder(sp?)
B Class - The new Sidewinder should satisfy the East Coast crowd.
C Class - Yamatos are still a decent motor (even with all of the model parity
whining from the East Coast crowd); only UIM runs "stock" Yamatos.
D Class - The new Tohatsu should replace the Mercurys, if Mercury does not
offer a replacement soon (or provide better parts availability).
E Class - The JonRude motors are getting harder to find in decent shape;
this may be a motor size and area "ripe" for a new motor.

Pro Classes:

125cc - Rarely run in US (mostly in Europe); small US market on East Coast.
175cc - Same status as 125cc; very small US market.
250cc - Euro motors dominate this class; one new US motor is already being
developed.
350cc - Again, Euro motors dominate this class - Rossi, VRP, etc.
500cc - Capsule hydros with Euro motors; good runabout, but small US hydro
market (this class could use an "IROC" approach to equipment.)
750cc - Capsule hydros w/Euro motors; possible international market
expansion.
1000cc - Casule hydros & some US runabouts; VERY small US market.

That said, the following equipment areas, in my view, need new US suppliers:

1. Pro motor foot gears and assemblies - no pro motor manufacturer has a
dependable gearbox assembly (Bass makes nice assemblies for high-torque
mod motors.)
2. Pistons - EVERY class is hurting for good aftermarket pistons from US
(reliable) suppliers that can match the motor specs in APBA & UIM.
3. There is some strong interest in our area for a new FEH motor. The size of
the hydros and runabouts seem to attract racers that formerly ran this
class, or don't have enough pro boats in their area to run against. FEH
runs gas and oil at some pretty high speeds, without the expense of a
Euro outboard motor. The three-cylinder engines are heavy and "vibrate"
a lot (LOL). This class could excel with a new, 2-cycle block that has a
simple magnito ignition system (PCL?) made for racing instead of complex,
"fishing motor" ignition parts that fail quite often...

These are my observations and suggestions to you. Thanks for caring about our water motorsport!

Al Peffley
15-R/R-25

[Al Peffley]

Note to Dave M

Too much common sense, Dave. I like your train of thought on race schedules and classes! I believe that was the original classes schema when APBA started, and then we got side-tracked on a bunch of "hybrid" motor setup classes that never have a full race field, except sometimes at the Nats...

Al

[473M]

Gpauto

Well just to let you know we have had a profesional company working on this for over a year and they have yet to figure it out. So if you feel that you can then please do so and i am sure we will be more then willing to try it.

[17W]

A Thought.....

Why not contact Ron Selewach (Sidewinder CEO) & offer your services.....As stated in another thread their projected production time line will be missed due to vendor/outsourcing issues etc.....

Sounds like you could possibly help!

[tborisch]

Thank You!

This was very insightful! I would be excited to build a motor that fits a nitch that people NEED. Im also not upposed to building parts. Pistons are pretty easy to build, it's getting them to hold up thats a little rough sometimes.

-Tom

Hi Tom,

I appreciate your interest in making a new outboard motor. There are three major areas of equipment availability shortfalls in our current outboard motor selections for Stock, Mod, and Pro classes, in my view. First let's take the classes in alphabetical order and review the motor equipment status:

Stock/Mod:

J Class - The new Mercury 15hp motor and existing OMC stuff works fine.
A Class - The old JonRude stuff seems to be holding up; let the in***bants
propose and offer a replacement: Mercury/Bombadier(sp?)
B Class - The new American Hotrod should satisfy the East Coast crowd.
C Class - Yamatos are still a decent motor (even with all of the model parity
whining from the East Coast crowd); only UIM runs "stock" Yamatos.
D Class - The new Tohatsu should replace the Mercurys, if Mercury does not
offer a replacement soon (or provide better parts availability).
E Class - The JonRude motors are getting harder to find in decent shape;
this may be a motor size and area "ripe" for a new motor.

Pro Classes:

125cc - Rarely run in US (mostly in Europe); small US market on East Coast.
175cc - Same status as 125cc; very small US market.
250cc - Euro motors dominate this class; one new US motor is already being
developed.
350cc - Again, Euro motors dominate this class - Rossi, VRP, etc.
500cc - Capsule hydros with Euro motors; good runabout, but small US hydro
market (this class could use an "IROC" approach to equipment.)
750cc - Capsule hydros w/Euro motors; possible international market
expansion.
1000cc - Casule hydros & some US runabouts; VERY small US market.

That said, the following equipment areas, in my view, need new US suppliers:

1. Pro motor foot gears and assemblies - no pro motor manufacturer has a
dependable gearbox assembly (Bass makes nice assemblies for high-torque
mod motors.)
2. Pistons - EVERY class is hurting for good aftermarket pistons from US
(reliable) suppliers that can match the motor specs in APBA & UIM.
3. There is some strong interest in our area for a new FEH motor. The size of
the hydros and runabouts seem to attract racers that formerly ran this
class, or don't have enough pro boats in their area to run against. FEH
runs gas and oil at some pretty high speeds, without the expense of a
Euro outboard motor. The three-cylinder engines are heavy and "vibrate"
a lot (LOL). This class could excel with a new, 2-cycle block that has a
simple magnito ignition system (PCL?) made for racing instead of complex,
"fishing motor" ignition parts that fail quite often...

These are my observations and suggestions to you. Thanks for caring about our water motorsport!

Al Peffley
15-R/R-25

[tborisch]

Contact Info.

I would love to try and help out. What is there contact info?

thanks,
Tom

Why not contact Ron Selewach (Sidewinder CEO) & offer your services.....As stated in another thread their projected production time line will be missed due to vendor/outsourcing issues etc.....

Sounds like you could possibly help!