Dirty Laundry!!

[crankbearing]

Members,

I know that I am not the first person to say anything, but it really makes me sad to be a boat racer when we have a site to use as a venue to promote and sell items, a gathering place with a wealth of knowledge, but yet it all goes for NOT.

Every day I come on here and every day I review or read a new post that has negative perception. I have talked to three or four people in the last week who are leaving the sport and have been in it less then three years. That is only three that I talked to, How many have you all talked to that are justified Unhappy.

The three things I am told are, can you guess? # 1 politics, cannot run what I b(r)ought due to current rules and to hard to win when so and so can get a prop or an engine that I cannot get the same of.

This is really bad, we are a small sport with little to no advertising support nor manufacturer backing, we have more politicians then boat racers in most cases. Every one has the answer but no one has a cure or for some reason all the answers but no help when it comes time.

You know! I had a guy call me a month ago looking to buy a 44 and he asked me straight on what is the future of the d class. I could not answer his question. There is no straight cut path to the right way but I know for sure that if we continue with the road we are on then the bottom line is we sure will not have to worry any more.

This is not a mission statement of any kind nor a blow against the people who are trying to change things, I know I spent two months this winter organizing a chief scorer training seminar in Canada to try and get new volunteers for the CBF ouboard division and thanks to certain individuals who would take the time to organize, prepare literature and train 7 or 8 people for a few hours on a Saturday, CBF will have new chief scorers again, for a while anyhow until they burnout which we all do. This year we have more races in Canada then we have had in over 10 years but without the above workers we would not be racing and it almost came to that.

If we drive families away, we drive volunteers away as well. The die-hards will not be in it forever. My participation on this site has been minimal at best for a while now as I see no reason to elevate the blood pressure 4 or 5 times a day.

People like Ron S, Bass, myself and the many others are only trying to do what we can do to help little $$$'s are made supporting the racing group. Details are fruitless, but we all know it is a lot of investment to watch go up in smoke from the on going battles which should take place in a BOARDROOM - not on the internet. The SORC should also remember they are supporting and trying to run the sport but they also basically have control of the sales outcome of our investments as well.

Finally - Safety, can anyone explain to me WHY! we are adopting rules from a Paid organization that has Sponser for the boats, drivers, racing budgets, TV Coverage payoffs, etc..... into a sport that is trying to survive. I know that if I build a boat I make about 2$ per hour on the boat and now I have to make a custom cockpit side (2) to install in a hydro to be approved or inspected with no set rules as of yet adding about 1K to the price of a finished boat in material and labour, I have just priced the boat at 4500 - 5500 dollars depending on the builder with no hardware or finish, add a new motor 4 - 6K you are at 10-12K for a new boat and motor and you have not bought props, safety gear etc. So on top of the above we are now pricing ourselves out of the game as well, remember that this sport was built by the WORKING man for the WORKING man and that is quickly becoming HISTORY.

Sincerely,

[Fast Jack]

Dave, I know and understand your frustration. I have worked hard to bring boat races back to Maine. We now nave 2 race sights and are breathing life back into the J class. In the past 2 years D stock and 25 SSH have grown into some of our largest classes. Cost is a major factor in geting into the sport. A lot of people ask about geting started, but shy away after the find out about the travel and initial investment. I think the "Kevlar Rules "could Kill our sport. With the help of some very good people Racing is alive and well in Maine ... Lots not destroy all this work with hard to impliment, and enforce rules.. ( Ill get my new boats built before the deadline this year) Shawn

[HRTV]

Members,

I know that I am not the first person to say anything, but it really makes me sad to be a boat racer when we have a site to use as a venue to promote and sell items, a gathering place with a wealth of knowledge, but yet it all goes for NOT.

Every day I come on here and every day I review or read a new post that has negative perception. I have talked to three or four people in the last week who are leaving the sport and have been in it less then three years. That is only three that I talked to, How many have you all talked to that are justified Unhappy.

The three things I am told are, can you guess? # 1 politics, cannot run what I b(r)ought due to current rules and to hard to win when so and so can get a prop or an enigine that I cannot get the same of.

This is really bad, we are a small sport with little to no advertising support nor manufacturer backing, we have more politicians then boat racers in most cases. Every one has the answer but no one has a cure or for some reason all the answers but no help when it comes time.

You know! I had a guy call me a month ago looking to buy a 44 and he asked me straight on what is the future of the d class. I could not answer his question. There is no straight cut path to the right way but I know for sure that if we continue with the road we are on then the bottom line is we sure will not have to worry any more.

This is not a mission statement of any kind nor a blow against the people who are trying to change things, I know I spent two months this winter organizing a chief scorer training seminar in Canada to try and get new volunteers for the CBF ouboard division and thanks to certain individuals who would take the time to organize, prepare literature and train 7 or 8 people for a few hours on a Saturday, CBF will have new chief scorers again, for a while anyhow until they burnout which we all do. This year we have more races in Canada then we have had in over 10 years but without the above workers we would not be racing and it almost came to that.

If we drive families away, we drive volunteers away as well. The die-hards will not be in it forever. My participation on this site has been minimal at best for a while now as I see no reason to elevate the blood pressure 4 or 5 times a day.

People like Ron S, Bass, myself and the many others are only trying to do what we can do to help little $$$'s are made supporting the racing group. Details are fruitless, but we all know it is a lot of investment to watch go up in smoke from the on going battles which should take place in a BOARDROOM - not on the internet. The SORC should also remember they are supporting and trying to run the sport but they also basically have control of the sales outcome of our investments as well.

Finally - Safety, can anyone explain to me WHY! we are adopting rules from a Paid organization that has Sponser for the boats, drivers, racing budgets, TV Coverage payoffs, etc..... into a sport that is trying to survive. I know that if I build a boat I make about 2$ per hour on the boat and now I have to make a custom cockpit side (2) to install in a hydro to be approved or inspected with no set rules as of yet adding about 1K to the price of a finished boat in material and labour, I have just priced the boat at 4500 - 5500 dollars depending on the builder with no hardware or finish, add a new motor 4 - 6K you are at 10-12K for a new boat and motor and you have not bought props, safety gear etc. So on top of the above we are now pricing ourselves out of the game as well, remember that this sport was built by the WORKING man for the WORKING man and that is quickly becoming HISTORY.

Sincerely,

Excellent post Dave, you know its bad when I don't want to log onto my own site anymore most days I rather not read all the BS a better name for the site at this point might be b---h racer.net instead of HydroRacer.Net Thats right I said it as Dave mention any vendor connected with boat racing will be lucky to make a few pennies off the dollar. Regardless of the service we provide our mission is to do the right thing from the boat builders to the motor designers and the web site owners but what do we get in return ?

[Brian10s]

Finally - Safety, can anyone explain to me WHY! we are adopting rules from a Paid organization that has Sponser for the boats, drivers, racing budgets, TV Coverage payoffs, etc..... into a sport that is trying to survive. I know that if I build a boat I make about 2$ per hour on the boat and now I have to make a custom cockpit side (2) to install in a hydro to be approved or inspected with no set rules as of yet adding about 1K to the price of a finished boat in material and labour, I have just priced the boat at 4500 - 5500 dollars depending on the builder with no hardware or finish, add a new motor 4 - 6K you are at 10-12K for a new boat and motor and you have not bought props, safety gear etc. So on top of the above we are now pricing ourselves out of the game as well, remember that this sport was built by the WORKING man for the WORKING man and that is quickly becoming HISTORY.

Sincerely,

Dave,
While I can understand and agree with almost every else you have stated, the last paragraph I can not. It is the same complaint that was made before kevlar pants and sleeves where implemented - the exact same reasoning, it will be too explensive and will drive away racers. Did cut suits drive away racers, maybe? Has cut suits helped reduce injuries and maybe kepts some of the current members to continue racing, yes it has. Will rounded pickles and kevlar sides improve the safety of all our drivers - I know I think so and it seems others feel the same way. It certanly will not make it worse. Yes, a new boat will cost more than one built in the past. But a 44 or a tohatsu costs more than a 55 did as well. So will a new Sidewinder than a new hot rod back in the day. Even props have gone up in price the last 20 yrs. 25 yrs ago, your racing suit was a pair of shorts, tee shirt (optional), a gentex lifejacket and a open face motorcycle helmet with shades on. Today, we have full cut suits (most with kevlar boots & gloves), full face helmets and lifejackets that in 08 will be way better than what we had before. All with significant cost increases.

What is the real complaint - rounding the pickles takes 1/2 hr and $10 worth of west. Installing 1 layer of kevlar on each cockpit side, either on the inside or outside of the panel, at a cost of $200 plus west? Where did I get that price? I took 2 seconds and put kevlar in a search engine and came up with this http://www.armorco.com/shop/category.asp?catid=2
I have no idea if this is a good price or if it is even the best/ right stuff. It was the first one that popped up in the search. But even if the right stuff cost double ($400) where is the other $600 coming from?


The question we all have to ask ourselves in what is the price of our personal safety and of those we race with? Or better yet, we all know Nascar didn't take safety that serious until Dale Earnhart died - so who is boat racing's Dale?

[crankbearing]

Yes!! safety is needed.

Dave,
While I can understand and agree with almost every else you have stated, the last paragraph I can not. It is the same complaint that was made before kevlar pants and sleeves where implemented - the exact same reasoning, it will be too explensive and will drive away racers. Did cut suits drive away racers, maybe? Has cut suits helped reduce injuries and maybe kepts some of the current members to continue racing, yes it has. Will rounded pickles and kevlar sides improve the safety of all our drivers - I know I think so and it seems others feel the same way. It certanly will not make it worse. Yes, a new boat will cost more than one built in the past. But a 44 or a tohatsu costs more than a 55 did as well. So will a new Sidewinder than a new hot rod back in the day. Even props have gone up in price the last 20 yrs. 25 yrs ago, your racing suit was a pair of shorts, tee shirt (optional), a gentex lifejacket and a open face motorcycle helmet with shades on. Today, we have full cut suits (most with kevlar boots & gloves), full face helmets and lifejackets that in 08 will be way better than what we had before. All with significant cost increases.

What is the real complaint - rounding the pickles takes 1/2 hr and $10 worth of west. Installing 1 layer of kevlar on each cockpit side, either on the inside or outside of the panel, at a cost of $200 plus west? Where did I get that price? I took 2 seconds and put kevlar in a search engine and came up with this http://www.armorco.com/shop/category.asp?catid=2
I have no idea if this is a good price or if it is even the best/ right stuff. It was the first one that popped up in the search. But even if the right stuff cost double ($400) where is the other $600 coming from?


The question we all have to ask ourselves in what is the price of our personal safety and of those we race with? Or better yet, we all know Nascar didn't take safety that serious until Dale Earnhart died - so who is boat racing's Dale?

Brian,

In the beginning the quotes were 450$ per side. If that has changed then great. But what you are forgetting is the added cost to Make composite panels, different resins, hardeners, larger table to vacuum them, a good vacuum pump can be lots of $$$ as well.

So my original idea is that APBA (SORC, MORC etc) create a universal panel and assume the costs to do so that can be Added INSIDE the boat not outside, that is tested and approved and no boat builders or the like have to spend money on equipment (more) to make a new boat and then get the rules in order that everyone can understand. To go about this the way it has been is not correct either and Sam Hemp had some very good replies to this. If a panel is already formed then I believe it can be epoxied into place on the boat with regular west but I need some composite experts to chime in on this. This to me is the only real way to control the costs and the materials used that all are on the same page.

We all want safety, yes I want to drive home on Sunday evening after the race with all parts intact, we all want that but again Brian if it is out of reach for the average joe that wants to go racing, why would it matter anyhow.

Regards,

[AOFoffice]

Dave,
Great post and some of the reasons AOF is growing. Low cost, rules by the clubs emphasized per area or club.
We all think we are celebrities, when in fact we are just a big family built by little families who have fun at a HOBBY. Once we realize that, then maybe we can progress to professional status where political BS means something.
LJHFR
(Let's just have fun racing!)
AOF Office

[Brian10s]

Brian,

In the beginning the quotes were 450$ per side. If that has changed then great. But what you are forgetting is the added cost to Make composite panels, different resins, hardeners, larger table to vacuum them, a good vacuum pump can be lots of $$$ as well.

So my original idea is that APBA (SORC, MORC etc) create a universal panel and assume the costs to do so that can be Added INSIDE the boat not outside, that is tested and approved and no boat builders or the like have to spend money on equipment (more) to make a new boat and then get the rules in order that everyone can understand. To go about this the way it has been is not correct either and Sam Hemp had some very good replies to this. If a panel is already formed then I believe it can be epoxied into place on the boat with regular west but I need some composite experts to chime in on this. This to me is the only real way to control the costs and the materials used that all are on the same page.

We all want safety, yes I want to drive home on Sunday evening after the race with all parts intact, we all want that but again Brian if it is out of reach for the average joe that wants to go racing, why would it matter anyhow.

Regards,

Dave,
That was my original plan (and yes I have been one of the biggest proponents or pain in the blank - depending on how you look at it) to have ready made panels for the retrofit of existing boats. The panel was supposed to make retrofit easy for Joe boat racer and the $450 was only one quote from one builder. If this were to be done - my hope would be exactly what you stated, have a standard spec and open it up to several builders who would be able to supply them. And the builder I had been in discussions with did stress this would be something easily trimmed and wested to fit an existing cockpit.

While this is something that I hope will come about in the future, I do not beleive it is on the table currently. My understanding is the goal is to get new construction rules in place for both topics and then think about retro fitting down the road. And for new construction, I believe that the thought process is the specify the materials used and let each builder apply them as they see fit (wither the kevlar is on the outside, inside or sandwiched).

[ryan_4z]

Dave,

Right on with that post. Even I am sick and tired of all the BS that is going on. I can only say that I hope people will not take what they see on this message board to seriously. There is a lot of uninformed rhetoric that goes on here also. People talk about leaving the sport because of politics, you know if you don't turn your computer on, you would be surprised at how much of this politicing is going on, hardly none. The "politics" that everyone complains about are no more than discussions on a message board. Quitting this sport because of the "politics" on this website is about equivilent to if I were to stop being a Giants fan because of all the *ssholes who b*tch about the head coach on their message boards. Seems kind of silly doen't it. It's not like we are all at the races fighting, that doesn't happen at all. While in Ocoee I remeber about 15 minutes of political discussion. That was over a course of about 5 days. The rest was racing boats and drinking beer. I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would quit because of a bunch of yo-yos running their mouths on the internet. Who really cares? If you don't enjoy the politics, then you can just go race your boat, you don't have to get involved. It really sadens me to know that people would actually quit such a great sport, for such a meaningless reason.

Brian,

I really wanted to stay out of the composite rule deal, but I just have to mention a couple of things. First, simply putting a piece of kevlar on the combings of an old boat is not really an efficient way of making the boat stronger. If not done properly, all you are doing is making even more dangerous splinters. Second, I am not sure of the exact wording of the new rule, but I don't think that you can simply retrofit an older boat to be compliant with UIM cockpit side rules. Third, how are we going to test the construction to make sure that it is done correctly. Lastly, I am very worried about the cost issue. I understand that this will(in theory) make our sport automatically safer, but at what cost. I know that there have been incidents where this would have benefited the driver(you, Jeff T.), but how many accidents like this have there really been? When you talk about Kevlars we know that just about anybody who raced in the 70's has scars. A great number of injuries were going to be prevented with the requirement of kevlar pants and sleeves. Are we going to prevent any injuries at all with this rule? I hate to stand in the way of safety, but in this case, the cost seems to outweigh the benefits.

[Brian10s]

Brian,

I really wanted to stay out of the composite rule deal, but I just have to mention a couple of things. First, simply putting a piece of kevlar on the combings of an old boat is not really an efficient way of making the boat stronger. If not done properly, all you are doing is making even more dangerous splinters. Second, I am not sure of the exact wording of the new rule, but I don't think that you can simply retrofit an older boat to be compliant with UIM cockpit side rules. Third, how are we going to test the construction to make sure that it is done correctly. Lastly, I am very worried about the cost issue. I understand that this will(in theory) make our sport automatically safer, but at what cost. I know that there have been incidents where this would have benefited the driver(you, Jeff T.), but how many accidents like this have there really been? When you talk about Kevlars we know that just about anybody who raced in the 70's has scars. A great number of injuries were going to be prevented with the requirement of kevlar pants and sleeves. Are we going to prevent any injuries at all with this rule? I hate to stand in the way of safety, but in this case, the cost seems to outweigh the benefits.

Ryan,
While I am not in the "know" of what discussions are on going, I will comment since it seems I started most of this.
1st - without a retro fit of some kind, your alternative is to outlaw all older hulls. I would think this is would be much more expensive and lose more drivers. And that is how the UIM did it - they mandated all boats to have kevlar for the next year. At least the Commissions are looking into a more staggered implementation. However, a retrofit is not what is on the table right now and most likely will not be discussed for another couple years. What is being discussed is for new construction only.
2nd- while I believe in cutsuits 100%, I raced for years without them and never received a scratch. Should I have refused to buy them because it was not me that had gotten injured. There were many drivers who railed against cutsuits with the same arguments as you have presented here. I guess my answer is what is more important, that new prop or your body? What would cause more drivers to quit this hobby, an additional cost towards safety or an injury?
3rd - can we prevent all injuries? No, nothing can except staying at home locked in your rubberlined basement. Does this have the ability to reduce the severity of a injury, absolutely.
4th - The cost only outweights the benefit until it is you in an accident. It all comes down to the "who". Who is it that has to be injured before the cost is justified?

[Tim Weber]

drive runabouts! problem solved

Tim

[3rd Chance]

Ryan

Giants stink! You should be an Eagles fan........we can move ahead with your conversion this weekend with some brews.....

[sws115]

iknow i should not chime in here but i feel i can be of some help here
and im not trying to step on any toes or take anything away from any from anyone
purchasing materials 101 buying power in bulk
you guys all i mean all members builders who have to have this saftey panel lets call it get an order together and someone work all the suppilers and buy down the cost per panel
i do it everyday as a business owner
call me ill make all the calls down here for you guys
that way you can go to your favorite builder and or fiberglass shop pay labour only
maybe im wrong here but it seems to be a simiple problem
www.allfiberglassrepairs.com
sorry up front if i offended anyone
ps i think this needs to be done for all saftey gear the cost is way to high
thats what has been holding me back for a while now

[Al Peffley]

Cockpit Reinforcement

UIM has more rules on hydro dimensions, weight minimums, and driver safety gear than just cockpit reinforcement. While I support the addition of statistically-proven safety improvements in certain classes that operate at speeds over 70 mph, I think this piece-meal approach to implementing the rules weakens the initiative and effectiveness of these type of safety improvements. If the driving and equipment (motor) rules were more standardized for all categories of APBA boat racing, and the rules inforced more equally at all sanctions, then overall safety will improve with or without composites reinforcement of the cockpit.

Reinforced cockpits and rounded picklefork tips on UIM hydros, I was told by Bob Wartinger once, were imposed on UIM boat owners because the nationalized-team UIM racers were too agressive and some of them were purposely running into each other during a race to "eliminate" a competitor by force. I also suspect the reinforcement was imposed due to the race course configuration differences from the traditional US oval course setup (tighter corners) and typical rougher water, river racing environment in Europe.

My cockpit on my CSH is reinforced with Gr/Ep, but it does not protect me from being injured or run over AFTER I am ejected from my racing boat. I worry more about breaking my neck or being run over by a boat behind me when I hit the water outside the boat than I do about spinters from a broken cockpit side...

If you think US amateur racers are going to adopt bad UIM cut and hack driving habits (they don't all drive that way) or agressive "bumping" strategies like other professional motor racing organizations do (GP motorbikes, Formula 1, NASCAR, etc.), then bring on a more complete set of hydro racing specs for a totally new, test "pilot" racing class and then see what the impact is to the sport. Even the UIM did not adopt the reinforced cockpit requirement for the slower pro classes like OSY-400, until recently.

We have too many hydro classes over here, but that's another subject that keeps manufacturers from supporting our sport and sponsors from helping us with our race costs. Almost every hydro hull we race in any class is a hobby-type, "one-off" design. I would love to see a five-class, "pro" hydro, UIM-style series of boat racing special events over here co-sponsored by APBA, USTS, and/or AOF with stable spec requirements in 2008 or 2009, but I'm not holding my breath... Race safe this season and have fun!

Al

[propnuts]

Take a breath folks

We had a couple brothers up here in region 10 that just started racing last year. After reading far too many posts on hydroracer they were ready to quit because they were convinced that the sky was falling and outboard racing was seriously in the toilet. We were able to talk them off the ledge by explaining that what you see on this one little web site DOES NOT represent all, or even a large percentage of outboard racing. I feel that in region 10 our racing is a fair bit healthier than when I started racing 8 years ago, and the future looks pretty good too. The majority of racers either don't come to this site (or have a computer for many), and many that do have the good sense to ignore most of what they see here. This site represents the "lunatic fringe" of the sport, many posts put on here just to stir things up (Ed?). If someone quits because of what they see here, they're too thin skinned to race anyway. Tony

[csh2z]

Stock Outboard is in the early stages of a transitional phase. The future is very bright in spite of the current state of some of our classes. With the plan implemented by the SORC, authored by the Stock Outboard Steering Committee, we have a clear vision of what our future will look like. There are going to be issues and details that will be debated both on this website and at our races. Some of these discussions will turn into arguments, there is no avoiding that. Regardless of our efforts, there are going to be dissenting opinions on whatever we do. Hopefully in the end we will have made the right moves to make this sport/hobby the best it can be.
As I said earlier, the future is bright. We have NEW motors being developed for our A,B, 15SS and D classes as well as plenty of new and still available C motors. There are stumbling blocks but we will get over them. The Bass Tohatsu is already out there and the 44XS is still a good investment with the help of Dave Scott. The D classes should and will grow and be here for a long time. The Sidewinder Project is very near to stocking the shelves with parts and complete new motors. I know many people that are very anxious about when we'll finally see these motors. Be patient, They are going through every last detail of every component on these motors to be 100% confident that they are producing the best, most consistant and most dependable Racing motor available. The last 6 months and the next few weeks are the most important time for patience. As they develop working relationships with manufacturers to supply high quality components at a fair and reasonable cost so they can make enough money to stay in business and still deliver their products at the lowest price they can.
We have a very bright future.