ATTN: PRO Drivers

[BratChild]

I have a question, and this has probably been brought up before, if you read through the lines, but aren't the people who are spotting for the open cockpit drivers the same people who spot for the closed cockpit drivers? I know when Nic is the spotter for Ben in the 700ccH, he says the same things he would if he was in the 250ccH. There's no difference. Ben has just about the same limited vision in both the capsule and the laydown, but the capsule has the advantage of mirrors. Neck restraints, WHEN WORN PROPERLY keep the head straight so it can't turn or be pushed or pulled the wrong way if the driver is thrown from the boat and hits the water. The reason capsule drivers have radios is because they have limited vision. The same goes for the open cockpit classes where neck restraints are worn. There is limited vision.

But to make it short Nic spots for Ben in the capsule, and he spots for him in the laydown. Either way, it's the same person saying the same things for the same reason>> limited vision.

What's the difference?

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

Pro Is!!!

I don't race but have been to a few, Pro racing was once Alkie in days gone by but it was always a run what you brung class, so i don't see the reason for argument as long as it's not mandated for those who choose to not do so.
RichardKCMo
add get some more races in KCMo area.!!!

[YankeeRacing]

Connie:

I understand your point but we're using them in capsule boats today. OPcers are using them today. I'm know they use them in other categories too.

How I see it, the issues these people are complaining about happen in capsule races, too! If they are doing something illegal, throw them out....If it's legal then be readyfor it. My own brother used to hose me big time when he passed me. He cut me off when I tried for the inside. Did he do it legally? Yes. Was it nice? NO. Didn't take me long to realize this and I was ready for it!

We are not solving the problem by trying to take the radios out of the non-capsule boats. This is not a capsule/non-capsule issue.

You must get to the root of the problem before you fix anything!

I think I've given more than my two cents now!:-)

Susan, you are correct. However, what I am asking is not what Pro is going to do or should do. I am asking if APBA has their bases covered concerning liabililty and protection of the spotters. If I decide to be a spotter, I sure as heck want to know that in the case of an accident involving a lawsuit that I am covered.
The helicopter issue might be something for the future, but that too should be something that I believe APBA should handle. As it stands right now, there doesn't seem to be any or much regulation on the spotters and that might bring up a fairness issue. If someone does happen to use a helicopter, for instance, how would anyone know? We often have aircraft flying over our races. We have no control right now over much of what a spotter can or should do. If I was the APBA insurance company, I would want that.
By the way, the helicopter fees were actually pretty cheap. About $100 an hour. Of course, that $100 would by a lot of beer, and I for one am not going to dip into the racing beer budget just so Brian can win a race. Priorities I guess.
Connie

[shadowracerwoo]

From all these posts, I see several sides to this: 1) some think that radios cause problems when spotters tell them to do something they shouldn’t, 2) some think it’s an unfair advantage for a driver, and 3) some want to improve their own personal safety. Did I catch them all? Lets look at each one.

1) As many have already said, if a driver violates a rule, Disqualify the Driver. This is already a rule that should be enforced. If it is not being enforced (with or without radios) then the officials are not providing a safe race. Since Capsule boats are not part of this rule, this will have to be fixed for them anyway.

2) A device can only become an unfair advantage if it is not allowed to be used by everyone. The current rules, and low cost of a radio does not preclude anyone from using one today.

3) Radios improve safety. How many times have you sat on the beach watching your driver while talking, and sometimes yelling at them, when something is about to happen: “Your Floating too high,” “The wind on the back stretch is gusting”, “Red Flag,” “You jumped the gun, back off.” I don't know what APBA insurance is doing about spotters, but since radios have been in use for many years in APBA I would like to think that this has been worked out. What I would like to know is what APBA insurance is going to say when a jury is watching a video of a horrible accident that could have easily been avoided by communicating to the driver...

PRO racing is getting smaller every year. We just had our first APBA race in Florida last weekend on a record course and did not have enough boats to run a single PRO class. I don’t know all the answers to why this is happening, but Safety is certainly one of the heavy hitters. Think about how many racers are sidelined on the beach due to injury, and the ones no longer with us. If a device could have prevented even 10% of these we could have a lot more racers back on the water, and maybe be able to attract some new blood into our sport.

After Nic Thompson’s accident, Eldredge Racing has made many changes in the name of Safety. On our team, neck restraints are required, testing or racing, to protect from what happened to Nic. Nic owned a neck restraint when he had his accident, but had stopped wearing it because it limited his visibility as they do when worn properly. I hope everyone out there will disapprove this rule so the people that want to improve their safety have that option.

Dave Eldredge

[Kristi Ellison]

Dave

I agree with everything you said except I still think most everyone is missing to point of number 1. Maybe I have not spoken well...the concern about rule violations is not a spotter telling the driver to move left or right to cause overlap and bearing away...( I used the example to show there are a lot of problems with radios in the other catagories).....The problem appears to be if someone tells you there is a boat moving up on your inside or outside that has the speed to overtake you it is a natural reaction to try and block the overtaking driver potentially causing an accident when an unexpected lane change occurs, as Mike Schmidt and others have indicated. Drivers on the beach have started to notice lane changing without heads turning in an attempt to block. That is very dangerous because some drivers are not looking and are relying soley on a beach spotter. That is one of the concerns as I see them.

Kristi

[YankeeRacing]

My family will continue to do it's research on this subject before voting. Of course I cannot vote, but my son Brian (125R 250 R and OSY) and my daughter and grandson (OSY) can. We re discussing this as a family.
First of all, I have utter respect for the elected and appointed reps who went to LA to represent us all in the meeting. Most of them are also the same people who sell and find the sites, prepare the races and sites, work at the races, lead us throughout the year. They give unselfishly. It is because of that respect that we have for them that I just think there has to be more to this whole radio issue than, "It is safer to have radios", or, they wouldn't have us voting on the subject again.
I believe that because they are involved in the races from the bottom up that they see more aspects of the radio issue than the rest of us. Many of us have seen unsafe racing because of the radios. Period. We have also seen when a radio was a help when a racer wasn't paying enough attention to the flags and the course. My statement to that is then they need to pay better attention or they will be beached.
About the fairness issue. In the capsule classes all have to use the radios because of limited sight? Right? Then all are on the same playing field. In the non capsuled classes we have those who use the radios and those who don't. If the issue is radios or no radios, then maybe we should put everyone on the same field as in the capsules and mandate the radios for everyone. Not make it a choice. Especially since some advocate that it is the whole answer to safety in our sport. (I am being a little facetious here).
At any rate, I would like some guidelines for the spotters from APBA. Many have admitted that the spotter helps drive the boat in some abstract fasion. This is a legal issue that is not addressed in the rulebook at this time, and I believe it should be. Again, that doesn't mean I am against radios, I am just still not convinced I am 100 % for them. In my mind this is more than a safety issue. I think it is an advantage issue.
Anyway, thank you to those who spent their own money and week in LA discussing the radios and other things that might be controversial. You deserve to be acknoledged for your concerns. I am not going to blow you off in the name of safety if it really isn't just about safety.
Connie

[BratChild]

Kristi

Drivers look and make moves, and don't look and make moves. It has been that way since racing began. The PRO overlap rule is designed to keep people from trying to push on the inside to avoid accidents. What Mike described is him trying to sneak on the inside and he didn't get "Cockpit to Cockpit" to establish an overlap and he got wet down. I guarantee that he has been wet down by more drivers without radios than with them in this same situation. I know I have wet him down when trying to get on my inside and I have never used a radio myself (nothing personal Mike ).

If you really beleive this is an issue, then why not ban them in capsule boats as well? If visibility is your answer then please understand our point that neck restraints (Worn Properly) limit your visibility. This is the same issue. You cannot seperate the two.

How about this proposal?: Radios are only allowed by drivers wearing Neck Restraints Properly. This will promote a great safety device and allow those who choose to use them the additional safety of an extra pair of eyes to help with the visibility issue.

I'd vote for that

David

[sesailer]

Something else to think about.....

Dave

Drivers on the beach have started to notice lane changing without heads turning in an attempt to block. That is very dangerous because some drivers are not looking and are relying soley on a beach spotter. That is one of the concerns as I see them.

Kristi

Kristi:

If I understand you correctly, perhaps we will need to ban mirrors as well. You'll have the same affect with drivers moving their eyes to look in a mirror without turning their heads.

David:

Your proposal: Radios are only allowed by drivers wearing Neck Restraints Properly. This will promote a great safety device and allow those who choose to use them the additional safety of an extra pair of eyes to help with the visibility issue.


Although I'll say that would be a compromise, I still think if someone is indeed concerned about safety, he or she should have the option to use radios....but then, if he or she IS truly concerned about safety, they would be using neck restraints, so they are covered with your proposal!!!!

I think we need to move forward with safety instead of backwards. What are we going to do next, ban the use neck restraints?

[YankeeRacing]

Susan, don't hit me for this, in any case, I do owe you a drink for bringing it up-lol
Fortunately or unfortunately there are several opinions on the helmet restraints. Please understand that I am not arguing with you. I am still researching and others are still on the fence. However, the skepticism of helmet restraints and their merits may well be bleeding over to the radio issue. Whether it be lack of knowledge or inaccurate knowledge about the helmet restraints, there are those who do not agree that they are our final answer. I have not read the scientific information about the restraints as to how they relate to boat racing safety. Having a team family member who was injured, I am sure the Eldredge family has done the research and I would love to read it. Luckily for you (and all of us), we still have Nic (go Otis) around to entertain us. I am not so fortunate. When Dennis was killed I made it my passion to research what could have saved his life.
When my good friend, Dick Engler was killed at Dayton, Eric, his son, started some very important helmet and safety research. After Dennis died I continued with what Eric had started. There is not one person who knew and raced with Dennis who did not know what a great gentleman and racer he was. He is worth every minute I could give to his memory to make racing safer for us all. This family misses him so much and continued research into racing safety is what we owe him.
I met with every major helmet company and the Snell Institute. I have a whole different theory about what we need to do as far as helmets and restraints go based on years of research about boat racing, NOT car racing.
Until our design of helmets are made for boat racing instead of car or motorcycle racing, maybe helmet restraints are the best thing--for now. We are racing with helmets designed for car racing, and now we are adding restraints also made for car racing. Add that boat racing (open cockpit) is a whole different type of body sport than car racing and vision and surrounding awareness was always vital. If radios to compensate for our lack of vision is the best answer, then by all means we should use them. But why, in a sport that is so different and with different needs than car racing, do we just have to copy them and think that this is the answer? I am not convinced yet that we are moving forward. Please show me the research to prove me wrong. I want safety to be as easy a solution as radios and helmet restraints.
As a side note about Dennis and helmets. He was always against full faced helmets. He was an engineer who conducted many experiments and he insisted that they contributed to the “bucket effect.” It was me who convinced him that he must start wearing a full faced helmet, “because everyone else was doing it, so it must be best.” I will never just do what everyone else is doing again. I need answers. In doing the research and learning that the “bucket effect” is as simple as a specially designed helmet with relief holes to allow escape of water and air, I just don’t know why we aren’t pushing manufacturers to pursue that avenue. We would then eliminate such confining helmet restraints that limit racers’ vision and allow boat racing to be the contact sport it was designed and needs to be. (Not saying that some neck support is not needed). Racing cars and racing closed boats is a completely different animal. (In my opinion).

[kws]

Your post is very well put. I once laid my motorcycle down after entering an intersection that was flooded(the way the light was reflecting on the wet pavement you could not tell the diff. between the wet road and the road that was underwater) as i slid through the water feet first (4 or 5 inches deep) the pressure in my full face helmet was unbelievable @ 45 mph with no way for the water to escape the helmet.

[nicf14]

The problem with your “bucket affect” is that I hit the water face first. Hard enough that the bones in my face that were not protected by my helmet were crushed. My neck was broken and the nerves to my arm were ripped out of my spine because my head was pushed so far to the left side of my body. This is exalty what the helmet restraints are designed to prevent, limit the movement of the head and neck.

If people are making illegal moves on the race coarse then throw them out. It doesn’t matter if they have a radio or not. If you ban radios in open cockpit then you should ban them in closed cockpit. There is just as many, if not more blocking maneuvers going on in them.

I raced for 14 years. I never had a radio. I want to hear from someone that just drove right by me on the inside or the outside without a fight.

JUST REMBER TO VOTE! IN THE MAIL BY THE 29

[YankeeRacing]

For the record. I am not against full face helmets (Heaven forbid), or helmet restraints. I am for "boat racing and water specific" types of helmets and neck restraints. There is a difference.
A list of all of the serious accidents needs to be looked at and stats should be accu mulated to decide what kinds of accidents are most serious and numberous, and then rules put in force accordingly.
And yes Otis, all who can, need to vote. Maybe we are helping to give a little more emphasis on why they should.
See you in a few days.
Connie

[sesailer]

Safety

Connie: Firstly, I will take you up on that drink!:-) You and I are on the same mission: to help with the safety of our sport! No matter what the outcome of the radio vote is, the Eldredge Racing team will continue to wear neck restraints. If something comes along we feel is better than what we are using now, by all means we will consider it.

I will say David has an excellent point when he states:

What I would like to know is what APBA insurance is going to say when a jury is watching a video of a horrible accident that could have easily been avoided by communicating to the driver...

The horrible, avoidable accident is what I want to prevent!


Like Nic said, REMEMBER TO VOTE - It must be postmarked by THIS Thursday, March 29th!

Hope to see everyone next weekend at Inverness! Have a SAFE trip!

[YankeeRacing]

Sue, Your on! Bev is flying. (lucky girl) Rich, Terry, Brian and I are driving. We will pack plenty. Mike can't come. Someone has to mind the farm.
Nic, I see your point. I also appreciate your courage to provide input. It isn’t easy to talk about these things. Remain compassionate.
Kevin,
You are explaining more or less what happened to Dennis but with dire consequences. His accident was no where near as violent as Nic’s. In fact his wasn’t violent at all. All that happened is that a flood of water entered his helmet and the force snapped his neck and he drowned. He didn’t even come out of the boat. . The helmet, lifejacket and race video were reviewed by helmet experts and the Snell Institute. Their conclusion was that if the helmet had been designed with relief holes and he had been wearing a neck brace he could have lived. By providing a release of the water pressure he had less chance of injury even from a broken neck. It was even suggested that if the helmet had popped off he would have had a better chance. This is why I am concerned about helmet restraints with the helmets we are using today. Maybe I had better start writing the helmet companies again.

[L. Allen]

"If people are making illegal moves on the race course then throw them out. It doesn’t matter if they have a radio or not."

I couldn't agree more.
Communication is GOOD. It can SAVE LIVES.

Just my opinion.