ATTN: PRO Drivers

[sesailer]

Radios for all....

Sue

It sounds to me like you are advocating radios for everyone? If you are all saying it is a safety issue for some why not all? It is not me you have to convince it is those on the fence and those who are opposed to using them at all. As far as I am concerned if you want them fine....we need to find a cost effective way to use them for safety only!

Kristi

I am advocating radios!! In MY perfect world , everyone out there would have communication with the beach. We CAN find a way to use them for safety...don't know how cost effective it would be though but I believe there is a way to use radios to make the sport safer. SAFETY...That's my one and only motive here!

AND....in MY perfect world, neck restraints would be mandatory, too! But then, that's the individual driver's discretion.....

[Sean Augustine]

Very well put...

If someone chops you it does not matter if he or she is using a radio or not -- a chop is a chop. Get the officials to make the call and toss the person. If the behavior is repeated beach them for a couple of weeks to see if that helps their hearing.

Radios are used in many other classes racing (outside of the PROS and boat racing) and it really seems to me that this should be left up to the choice of the driver.

f/8

There are already rules in place for bearing away and chopping. Concentrate the efforts on enforcement of existing rules and not on new rules.

I have used radios and I am a proponent.

Sean

[YankeeRacing]

This is a hard one. I do believe that everyone interested should voice their opinion here, not that everyone hasn't already made up their own minds.
I have already lost one kid to boat racing, and I don't plan to lose another. So as far as safety and the radio issue goes, I have spent the last 2 years listening and learning before making up my mind.
What Susan says makes sense. However, believe me, what Mike Schmidt says makes sense too. If we were using them only for safety, then the case is closed. Use radios. To me, if we are worried about a downed boat, then give everyone a radio and let the Referee be the spotter. I have been a referee and scorer for thousands of races, and know that there are trained eyes on the judges stand. If there is a mayday call, let the Referee make it for all.
However, in my quest for knowledge on the radio subject, I purposely put myself next to spotters at all races. (Being an old fat lady makes me look so unsuspect). Unfortunately what I have heard is exactly what Mike is explaining. The spotters are giving driving advice, and worse yet, ruthless driving advice.
Now is this bad? Well, we have all seen from the bank sometimes when it is. By using radios we must realize that we will need to address new problems. For example, who actually should be allowed to BE a spotter? Just any old APBA member? I used to race, and would you want me as a spotter for a racer your kid is racing against? Shouldn't the spotter be a legitimate legal racer? Not someone who used to race? If there is any chance at all that the spotter is helping to drive the boat, then they should be a legal driver, hopefully with keen skills and a lot of knowledge about water shifting, speeds, etc.
So many questions and so many problems. I wish I could say that it is as easy as radios. From what I have seen and studied in the last 2 years it isn't.
As a sidenote, I too don't remember a lot about Debra's accident. I don't know who hit her, but I sure hope that the driver got beached. Calls need to be made for safety, and racers need to pay attention or they must pay the consequences.
Connie Payn

[BratChild]

Mike has a good point. When you work your butt off to get right where you want to be behind someone you really want to pass, and you get right where they can't see you, but they still know you're there, it sucks. It really does. But would you rather him (OR HER) see you there and avoid you passing them, and work your butt off more and end up getting around them some other way or have someone flip behind you and you not know about it and then come around again and run them over? Sure radios can be used for the wrong reasons, but the reasons they should be used overly outweigh the wrong. I would rather be chopped anyday than hurt someone where it could have been avoided. You're gunna get chopped by someone with a radio, and you're gunna get chopped with someone without a radio. But would you rather have the drivers on the course know that you've flipped and are 10' from your boat in the middle of the turn, or have them come in side by side going full throttle, seeing you at the last second?

[Kdsailer]

i have not used and used radios for the last 4 years. my spotters was nic thomspon and i believe he does a good job. i never heard him once told me or ben (who he is also a spotter fo)r to chop someone . if u listen to him on the radio he is just letting u know where everyone is and what is going on when ur on the course. if there a problem with that then i don't know what ya'll are thinking but it helped me alot to get into pro racing and i think it has no advantage or disavantage and people need to stop complaining about this. i thought racing was suppose to be fun and thats why i loved racing so much. i wish we could get back this. thats my 2 cents..


jason f114

[F-111]

Isn't this where the "yellow card system" comes in? I think we do a pretty good job of policing ourselves as far as chopping, bearing away, and all that is concerned. It's getting called more recently, though probably not enough as Chris pointed out. Nobody wants to throw out their buddy, but you are also doing a disservice if you don't call it.

Like i said in my earlier post, if someone is going to chop you, it's going to happen radio or not, we know who we can race with and who's capable of mischief (See Mr. Schmidt's post). All you guys who complain about stuff not getting called are the same ones with their hands in their pockets when they are looking for turn judges.

But the way i see it, the ends outjustify the means. At the speeds we're going and things that happen, it doesn't hurt to have an extra set of eyes. We have rules in place to take care of the driving infractions, USE THEM!

So when do we get to the part about illegal fuel and classes getting cut?! Thanks.

Later kids, carry on!

Jon E.

PS: ballots in the mail

[David Weaver]

Against my bettter judgement...

....I will put in a few thughts on the issue.

1) Radios for the purpose of safety, this is a compelling arguement for radios. And it may override all the other concerns expressed in this thread and below.

2) Spotters - It has been noted that NASCAR uses spotters, so why shouldn't everyone. Correct me if I am wrong here, but NASCAR teams may actually use multiple spotters per car and these spotters are way-up high and not working from the pits. There are incidents through out the course of a year that are blamed on "my spotter said...". Spotters are monitored and they give racing advice that is mixed with safety advice.

MOst of of the spotters I see at PRO races are not in the best vantage point. NASCAR spotters do not have to look thru roostertails or look across long stretches (straightways) at flat angles to the racing surface. Most of ours do. Depth perception then is compromised.

3) I see a lot of side to side movement on the race course these days that did not occur 5-8 years ago. This could be coincidence with the increased use of radio's. Some stories posted on this thead suggest otherwise. Some of the block movements I have witnessed as a racer and a spectator required either eyes in the back of the helmet or a spotter providing information.

I am not suggesting any spotter ever said, hey bear down to the left and cut that guy off. But, I do believe that a driver's instinct will casue him/her to alter course when he/she is told that a boat is coming-up your inside. Now, in PRO this may not lead to a chop. Most likely the trailing boat will see the move coming before it qualifies as a chop. But this will lead to accidents that would not have occured otherwise. Again, it will not be intenional.

4) I have a concern that a driver could become dependent upon a spotters info and have an experience similar to Bill Diamond's when a piece of equipment invaribly fails.

I will continiue to race no matter how this vote goes. I will continue to race differently against a driver with a radio than against a driver using only his own devices. I have seen a difference. I am not complaining about anyone in particular.

I wish everyone a safe year of racing. Please pay attention to the flags in the turn boats and at the starting line. Watch for flares that signal a problem. Take 1 second to check to your left before moving over, it can be done in open boats. Keep a straightline from the 500 foot bouy to the start line (ths does not require a radio). Pay attention while milling and do not cut across the infield without looking in all directions. Respect the safety of your competitors and they will return the favor.

[ian]

As Sean said, if we enforce rules on the books, this is a moot point. If someone bears away, radio or not, they are disqualified.
Disqualifying someone for a driving infraction is the lousiest part of being a race official, in any capacity. Quite often, people have been doing things on the race course for so long, with no feedback, they don't even realize that it's illegal. Enforce at local races, so that at the Nationals or Worlds, everybody is ready, instead of a big surprise.
Radio or no radio, I always knew when someone was on the outside, and would bear away accordingly......I mean let it drift.....yea...drift.....

[Brian10s]

1st - I'm not a pro driver (unless you count the occasion OSY heat which Edward would not count but the rest of the world would - but that is a whole different thread) and have never used a radio, so while I will get a pro ballot (hopefully), I don't have a horse in the race. That and anytime I agree with Sean and Ian, I have to rethink my position on the subject.

But they both make a great points. Radio or not, it is still the driver in control on his/ her boat and if the turnboat and Judges Stand see something that they don't like (against the rules in the book) they have a responsibility to do something. There are rules on the books for each of these situations, they just need to be used. If someone runs into a pier or up the beach then something had to happen - that is not normal ativities for the race course, make the call. Turn judges and Judges Stand officials need to "make the call". I have thrown out friends and strangers alike and lived to tell about it. It is just racing, not brian surgery. If you ever got in a boat, you have broken a driving rule or had one broken against you. It happens and we all deal with it. It is a judgement call and every Ref in the sport will back up a turn judge every time (unless he/she wants them to sleep the rest of the set). With the new yellow & red card system that covers off the water events, any driver, spotter or crew that gets in a soemone face over a call, is just a call to the Ref away from going home.
Upon further review - I reread the BOD minutes from the Mar 7th meeting and the motion to expand the yellow/red card rule to the beach ended in a tie vote and failed. I was under the impression that it had passed at the Nat meeting but I was mistaken. I knew in the rule book it was to be applied to only on water issues but thought the BOD had changed this. However, even without the yellow/red card - there are rules a Referee could use to create the same result - no backlash from calls made on the water. Thanks Davey18W for pointing this out. Hate to spread false info.

From an outsider (and I know I do not have all the facts but I also have not bais either way) perspective - radios can do more good than harm and with a few calls made by those that can, you would have the best of both worlds.

Just an outside opinion.

[BratChild]

Ok here's the problem. With radios, drivers have an extra set of eyes telling them where things are at, and sometimes what to do. They can be used to cut people off, bear away(drift ) and other ILLEGAL things that should be called. I think the race officials need to call people out when they do something wrong. We need to have people as turn judges who know exactly what the rule is, and enforce the rule. This past weekend at Ocoee, someone mentioned to me that I was bearing away, but I didn't get disqualified for it. Granted, none of the officials saw it, so I just got a lecture. There is probably a definite statement saying what chopping is and what bearing away is, and I think all drivers need to be clear on what those statements mean. I wasn't using a radio this weekend, and I was said to be bearing away. To be honost, I've never cut anyone off or beared away (or however you say it) with a radio. The radio is just there so I can be safe.

The problem is that people using radios have an advantage, because they know where people are and have the opportunity to cut people off and so on. To prevent this, officials need to be extra strict on giving disqualifications for improper driving and unsportsmanlike driving. Don't take the eyes that can tell the driver where there is an accident or stalled boat on the course. Disqualify the driver. Beach them for a couple of races if they continue to do it. There are many times at races where things go unseen and undisqualified, so the drivers continue to do it. We need to make the rules clear, and enforce the rules.

Amy

[sesailer]

Well Said Amy!

Now get back to class!

Aunt Sue

[BratChild]

Alright, alright, I'm goin

[benf27]

All this talk about being cutt off and bearing away is pure HOGG WASH. Last year at a race I ran half a lap in the weeds about 3 feet from trees. After I ducked inside of this boat I was cut off so bad that the motor died. Thats racing. I if I had a dime for every time I was cut off I be rich! As a driver I expect that if I am trying to pass on the inside. And I have "ate that same rock pier" in Omaha. All the guys on this thread complaining about being cut off have cut me off once or twice. But with our over lap rule its legal, radio or not. And I think our over lap rule is great no matter which end of the bath I am on.

[YankeeRacing]

All I really hope is that all aspects are looked at and the right decision is made. I am like Kristi, I am still on the fence about radios, but I am sure that new problems will arise with the continued use of radios. We just need to be prepared.
Number one being; "What are the legal liabilities of a spotter in the case of an accident that 'could' be attributed to information from a spotter?" Call me crazy all you want, but I have sat through all kinds of liability trials. It could be brought up and as long as our bases are covered then we are ok. I just want to know that our bases are covered.
Number two; "What regulations are going to be put on spotters to keep things fair?"
Case in point: Last year at DePue an old boat racer friend came to us to say hello. (He lives close in Peoria). We got to talking and found out he is now a helicopter pilot. He came right out and asked if Brian wanted him to spot for him using the helicoptor. Since Brian doesn't use a radio at this time. (he's afraid either me or his wife will get on the radio and really tell him where to go!) we turned him down. But what about the next guy he asks? I sure hope to heck we don't have to deal with 6 helicopters out there running into each other.
Again, call me crazy, but the offshore racers have had to put regulations on their helicopters and spotters. Will it come to that for us and are we prepared?
It looks to me like we should limit our radio transmissions to safety only. Safety meaning downed boats, etc. That can be done from the judges stand with everyone on the same frequency.
I AM NOT SAYING RADIOS ARE BAD, just to clear that up1
Connie

[sesailer]

Helicoptors? Now would that be a hoot!

Connie:

I understand your point but we're using them in capsule boats today. OPcers are using them today. I'm know they use them in other categories too.

How I see it, the issues these people are complaining about happen in capsule races, too! If they are doing something illegal, throw them out....If it's legal then be readyfor it. My own brother used to hose me big time when he passed me. He cut me off when I tried for the inside. Did he do it legally? Yes. Was it nice? NO. Didn't take me long to realize this and I was ready for it!

We are not solving the problem by trying to take the radios out of the non-capsule boats. This is not a capsule/non-capsule issue.

You must get to the root of the problem before you fix anything!

I think I've given more than my two cents now!:-)