rule proposal 21

[Ron Hill]

Nostalgia

We race three classes called Nostalgia in Region 12.....Maybe not be many entries, may not be many boats nationally....may not have much status...It has an 80 MPH Speed Limit....

Check out the pictures...maybe, Outboards need a Nostalgia Class ADDED to fill the gap for DROPPING CLASSES.....

If classes, like THE FANTASTIC 36 Runabouts, could have had a place to continue to race, like Nostalgia, with a speed limit of say 55....This could answer many problems'' If you look at the guy with the Spearmint Rhino T-Shirt (I thought Spearmint Rhino was a pick up truck bedliner company...NOT, it is a GENTLERMAN's CLUB...)...He is writing speeds down..In THREE YEARS, no one has argued with the GPS!!! Speed over 80.9, you get a one lap penalty....Speed over 85, you are done for the weekend!!!

Question: Do you think our Nostalgia Outboard, bondo and all, had "STATUS" or were we "RACING" and having fun??? The pictures tell the story!!! Big Pat is 285 pounds that he admits to...Third race ever...did a great job in Nostalgia Endurance....

Hell, there are only 25 Nostalgia Boats racing in the U.S. but we're having a Nostalgia Nationals....(George Nationals is putting up the money....and Clyde Nostalgia is helping oput...FYI: This is the same George Natioanls that sponsored the first Winter Nationals...Sorry to say that OLD FRED WINTERS has passed on...But his family would be honoired to know that they still have a Winter Nationals...as many recall the powers that be in APBA did not want a WINTERNATIONALS to take away the STATUS of THE NATIONALS....but since George natioanlks had $15,000 dollars and Fred Winter had $15,000 we had a $30,000 dollar Winternationals.....and danm, the studtu of winning the Winternationals was HUGE!!!!

Chad raced BMX with Jeremy McGrath and Doug Herbert....Doug's dad, Chet Herbert gave Chad all the pads he needed to start BMX..We raced BMX for five years...Every month they had a Nationals, with 500 to 1000 racers at each Nationals....and between nationals they had Gold Cups...(Jeremy was older than Chad and so was "TOP FUEL" Doug...).

Status??? Hell yes...we race GT's and no one cared if we one, except DAD!!!!

The best race of the day, is the one your kid is in!!! Don't forget that!

[18W]

Ron-
You can't compare BMX to what we do. I too raced BMX. Even won the Mid-West Nationals once. But those Nationals are run on both Saturday and Sunday. Two seperate days, two seperate races.Completely different than our system.

Here'e the part you are forgetting. They have rankings within classes. Novice, intermadiate, and expert all within the same age group. Experts recieved more points than intermediates and novices. Intermediates less than experts but more than novices. Reguardless of how many showed up for each group.

You had to win a certain number of races before you could move up to the next ranking. And you could never move back down.

One thing did remain the same between all rankings, you were awarded one bonus point for each rider in your class at each race.

You could also earn double points at races like State Qualifiers and Track Championships. Tripple points at State Championships and "Nationals". Remeber there are near 20 "Nationals" events weekends every year. That means 40 races. And Quadruple points at the "GrandNationals".

We had it, at the end of my days, that you could go to a bonus point race every month.

How would this work with what we do???

I do like the idea that you should get a point for every racer in your class every race. You truly are rewarded for the number of competitors in your class that way. After all, just because you race say CSH and there are a large number of them, you are rewarded for the number YOU ACTUALLY RACE. Not the total number of them in the country. This could help the "weaker" class that travel every weekend to race the same racers by rewarding points for the number of boats they race directly against. It is a system that even "weak" classes benefit from because they are directly affected. And think of the points battles at the end of the year.

Yes,I know it would be a scorers headache, and the office computer can't handle it, and ....fill in another excuse here...But it can't be that hard because the last time I was racing BMX, there were 2 successfull organizations. ABA and NBL. And they both had more members than we, ALL kneeldown racing does, seperatly.

[Andrew 4CE]

Ron-

I do like the idea that you should get a point for every racer in your class every race. You truly are rewarded for the number of competitors in your class that way. After all, just because you race say CSH and there are a large number of them, you are rewarded for the number YOU ACTUALLY RACE. Not the total number of them in the country. This could help the "weaker" class that travel every weekend to race the same racers by rewarding points for the number of boats they race directly against. It is a system that even "weak" classes benefit from because they are directly affected. And think of the points battles at the end of the year.

Yes,I know it would be a scorers headache, and the office computer can't handle it, and ....fill in another excuse here...But it can't be that hard because the last time I was racing BMX, there were 2 successfull organizations. ABA and NBL. And they both had more members than we, ALL kneeldown racing does, seperatly.

Actually... if you use a spread sheet to tally your points... this is easy to do once you develope the forumla... I've been tracking and giving bonus points for drivers in races at every race I've been to for 4 years. The spreadsheet does it automatically. For the MOW Race Series I decided you needed atleast 4 boats in your class to get the bonus points (10 for each boat). If you didn't have 4 boats your class got no bonus points. Works great from our experiance.

[kws]

I think Davey is onto something on the points issue.
After those that feel a change should be made to the points system have put their thoughts down here, I tend to agree with them. I like the idea of awarding more points When the class runs not because more are in THE NATION. But because you did just beat more boats at any given race
I truly appreciate everyones well thought responses. I was concerned after I hit submit when I posed this question. that I had just made a mistake. thank you ALL for showing me my fears were ungrounded. this is a very educational thread.

[csh2z]

To all concerned

Please do not vote on this issue until you hear the remainder of the proposal and explanations. I'm compiling all the information and will post it ASAP. Please give me a few days before you vote. There is a lot of confusion and misinformation out there that needs to be clarified. John 2-Z

[Andrew 4CE]

I'm not part of APBA... but this ballots seems to be wrong from the beginning... why not just mail a new one if was a mistake and it went out wrong? What about the people who are not online to see these discussions?

[race4kaos]

mr.lou, we never schedule 45ss east of the mississippi because:
1. SO races have enough boats to support a race without 45ss. many sites are well established and don't need more entries. some races are even SO only in R6. other places combine SO, MO, some PRO and even SLT's.
2. adding 45ss to the schedule adds as much cost as it would bring in - currently we don't need divers.
3. the big one - WE RACE SST45 (the tunnel boat class of the tunnel boat category). PTT can 'piggyback' the Champboat Series or other races that already have ramps, divers, etc.
4. even before enclosed capsules & divers the 45's preferred the 'big $' races SST45 offered and stopped supporting local 45ss events.

FLA may have some other reasons as well. i think PTT and the WFLS have good things going. but i still don't get why R12 (or anywhere) NEEDS 45ss. all the arguements i have heard don't answer the question: why not just run SST45 instead (whether it's once, twice, hell, 4 times per day)?
i'm not trying to bash here - i just really don't get it. i know a lot of those drivers and i don't think they care what category they run under as long as they race like they are now. only the people running the races seem to think it matters...

ron, although your stories are interesting, some are a little off topic. i don't know how safe a 45 compared to SO. i think it's very dependant on your capsule and dive/rescue team.

davey, i never knew you won anything. good job buddy... lol. why did you quit bmx?

i just called apba. they don't know why i and others have not received our ballots, but said to call and they can mail one asap... i am voting for rule 21. even though i doubt i'll race SO this year, i care about it's future success.

[Ron Hill]

18-W For President....

Davey.....

Your post strated out saying BMX styl points and all wouldn't work...but the end you were selling me on a point change...

As one of my posts pointed out..Go Karts GOT tires....

Actually, my BMX comparison was to show that "STATUS" is in the eye of the racer, BECAUSE BMX has Nationals, Gold Cups and all monthly...

I have said FOR YEARS that certain races, like Loch Heaven, where I never raced, is a big race and should be given double points... Certain races, like San Diego, should be a Double or Triple points race...

Scoring would be as easy as today.

1. Heat races would get the regular 400, 300, 225 points
2. At the end of the day, the Chief Scorer/Scorer would count how many boats were in the class... C Hydro winner 400 National Points plus 9 for 9 boats...Would be one way to do it... (If I find the Russ Hill Point System I'll post it...It was written in 1962... Andy Fraclick has a cool point system)...

3. BMX ran "OPEN" Races, so you didn't move up too fast...I thought that a person should be allowed to revert back to Novice after an 18 month lay off...As most young racers move up too fast and then out the door...

Region 12
Races SST 45 for OPC Points (Both days, this year) and if time permits we run 45 SST (Stock) on the long course....At our smaller races we race both classes. OPC doesn't allow two point races in a day.

If you'll read my post, somewhere here, I suggest OPC establish SST 45 Marathon and Closed Course points, and allow points each day...OPC, like others, see things through their eyes. Like usual, I thought my ideas were great...

Including having a Local Class The "NEW" 36 Runabout....

Ask Sam Hemp about my BMX Racing.....Actually I never really raced...I asked ABA for and got a 40 and over class Cruisers....... Still didn't help my neck when I wore my Simpson full face helmet....And the final straw, Chad could beat me and he was FIVE!!!

[csh2z]

Ron, You've spoken alot about your race in San Diego and told us of tens of thousands of excited spectators year after year. My question is: Out of all those cheering fans, don't you think some of them would be interested enough to get involved and perhaps even to participate in boat racing? Has anybody ever asked? I would think there would be possibly dozens of potential new boat racers in those stands. Don't hang this problem on the commission. All of you, look in the mirror and ask that person if they have ever even tried to grow this sport that we are so passionate about. The answer won't surprise me. John Runne 2-Z

[Ron Hill]

In the 1970's

When I was Commodore of SCOA and then Region 12 Chairman, we ran a boat show, and races with the races in San Diego. We generally got four new racers a year.... Frank Pruess and myself got most into Yamto 80's, many in 20 Hydro and Runabout...

Then, 20 Runabout became B Runabout and we lost all 20 RUNABOUTs, a few went to Dayton ...they had cool California paint jobs, and were "HOT" in California...and they were young and had never seen a 20-H or Hot Rod, but did know they came home with only a 5th place....in SoCal. Boat designs changed so that when we raced in Misssion Bay, we had several very bad accidents...(Hydros stuffing off patrol boat rollers)...(Combining B Runabout and 20 Runabout only killed off 20 and B Runabout was already dead or dying...)

But, last year, 2006, Jeff Conant, did get up at the CRACK OF JESUS and took Miss KT Doodle out of the water.... And try as we all have, that was September, and here it is almost April, and she is still chasing parts.

I sold a new driver a boat at the last Bakersfield race, and he will race at Parker...next month...But we sold it "TURN KEY".

When I left SCOA, to go MOD VP Racing, SCOA had just put on the 1977 Nationals. Our club had $20,000 in the bank and $10,000 in checking. Tom Ige, myself and Frank Pruess made a list of all used boats in REGION 12, with prices. We established a NOVICE CLASS, that is now OSY 400...and sold these boats, with motors at show...(I did this before and after I no longer raced Stocks)...

We sold racing at Boat Shows...I printed 10,000 brochures to give out...Do you have any idea how many 10,000 really is???

I really got away from Stock Racing when they started spending more money MODIFYING a Yamato than it cost to buy is perfect STOCK form...and when I inspected a gearcase and "TOSSED" it out, then I was told it was legal under the NEW RULES!!!!! Why would you take a perfectly good stock gearcase from japan, and allow someone to grind on it??? (That was called MODIFIED OUTBOARD RACING)...Why Yamato send the motors here, they all meet STOCK SPECS...

I sold a 45, two weeks ago, will pick up this new 45, next week...

This is either my new 45 or Wyatt Nelson's son!!!

You can get people racing when there is stuff to buy!!! Two years ago, I spent two solid weeks trying to buy a 44XS.....finally thought what am I doing...???

We put Pat's Nostalgia boat together, including building a motor from three or four boxes of parts in 3 weeks...Cash out of pocket for this rig is less than a C Stock hydro would cost...When we are at San Diego, this September, we are hoping Nostalgia gets invited and Nostalgia is GROWING......The CONCEPT IS SOLID...

Ernie Dawe loans boats at every race...but they usually don't buy or come back...Ernie asks me WHY???? Too much work, I tell him!!!! Too hard to win!!! Too expensive...Too....

When we got the MINI boats going, you could buy a boat, rig yourself in a day...and race...Jet Ski's changed the Mini Boat Revolution but....we race PWC's with our club and have 10-20 at each race....and PWC racing has other races like the 300 Miler they had, at Havasu, this month....They raced at San Diego and had several sign up from their booths that the different PWC companies had...Sit down, electric start, jet, play during the week, race on the weekends...Finance it...Hmmm...

To answer your question: Yes, we work hard at San Diego to get new racers and it has worked...But as the APBA Stock Outboard Rookie of the Year 2006 did, they sell their stuff and quit....Though this "ROOKIE" will race The Blue Water Resort and Casino 300 in October...

Long Beach is where the Loves got into racing....But now, everyone in Kneeler is at the Stock Nationals when we race at Long Beach, so we don't schedule kneeldowers, but we don't get new members either...unless they start is SST 45...

ADD: I'd love to have a Stock motor, say a 15 HP Four Stroke and a SPEC HYDRO that we could sell new racers on...But everyone would say you need a RACING LOWER UNIT and you'd need to get rid of the rev limiter and you'd need to have a two stroke that you can't sell in California and you'd need a $1,200 cut suit... (Reinforced cockpits in a 15 HP should not REQUIRE a CUT SUIT)...We could sell this boat on E-Bay...We could sell it at Boat Shows....It could be an INTRODUCTORY CLASS. Problably wouldn't work, we already have too many classes, I forgot...

A new CHINESE 15 HP, short shaft, is $1,500....four stroke EPA approved, not yet CARB approved...

ADD; When you could buy a new Johnson 15/Evinrude 15, I kept two new ones in the trailer with price tags on them...I always had a boat on the trailerr for sale...I actually gave away John Castelli's runabout one time to a guy I thought was going to start his kid in racing...The J class grew...But, but requiring kids to be 14 to drive and "A" instead of using experience, size....most kids stayed in J too long, when they got to A they were too big and A was too fast...We raced A one year and Chad was too big....He went 45 racing at 16....Had Ernie Dawe not GIVEN ME a Chine turning A Runabout, we wouldn't hve raced A for a year, as Chad wrecked every race running his J Runabout with an A...Except for Steven dawe ands Chad....that group of J drivers is gone.... The Loves came behind us, and they now run 45....

I sold more that 21 Johnson A motors...Most OMC A's in Region 10 are Johnsons, still, because they came through me...I traded Randy Peirson props for motors...Then sold the motors below OMC's prices...New motors, $1,000, in the box,then.

[csh2z]

If 45SS is a viable class, then why are there so few? Does the class need new motors to grow? If so, why has nobody informed the SORC? We don't want to lose 45SS any more than any other class but we have recieved no suggestions about how to save this class. What do you want us to do? The class has been stagnant for years. It requires no more effort from the SORC to support 45 or to eliminate it but dying a slow death is not good for anybody. John 2-Z

[bill boyes]

mr.lou, we never schedule 45ss east of the mississippi because:
1. SO races have enough boats to support a race without 45ss. many sites are well established and don't need more entries. some races are even SO only in R6. other places combine SO, MO, some PRO and even SLT's.
2. adding 45ss to the schedule adds as much cost as it would bring in - currently we don't need divers.
3. the big one - WE RACE SST45 (the tunnel boat class of the tunnel boat category). PTT can 'piggyback' the Champboat Series or other races that already have ramps, divers, etc.
4. even before enclosed capsules & divers the 45's preferred the 'big $' races SST45 offered and stopped supporting local 45ss events.

FLA may have some other reasons as well. i think PTT and the WFLS have good things going. but i still don't get why R12 (or anywhere) NEEDS 45ss. all the arguements i have heard don't answer the question: why not just run SST45 instead (whether it's once, twice, hell, 4 times per day)?
i'm not trying to bash here - i just really don't get it. i know a lot of those drivers and i don't think they care what category they run under as long as they race like they are now. only the people running the races seem to think it matters...

ron, although your stories are interesting, some are a little off topic. i don't know how safe a 45 compared to SO. i think it's very dependant on your capsule and dive/rescue team.

davey, i never knew you won anything. good job buddy... lol. why did you quit bmx?

i just called apba. they don't know why i and others have not received our ballots, but said to call and they can mail one asap... i am voting for rule 21. even though i doubt i'll race SO this year, i care about it's future success.

Kevin. Run sst45 more than once a day you say. Read OPC rule 11(1) pg 57. What can be done is 2 heats of 6 laps ea and then a final heat of say 20 laps.

[bill boyes]

Davey.....

Your post strated out saying BMX styl points and all wouldn't work...but the end you were selling me on a point change...

As one of my posts pointed out..Go Karts GOT tires....

Actually, my BMX comparison was to show that "STATUS" is in the eye of the racer, BECAUSE BMX has Nationals, Gold Cups and all monthly...

I have said FOR YEARS that certain races, like Loch Heaven, where I never raced, is a big race and should be given double points... Certain races, like San Diego, should be a Double or Triple points race...

Scoring would be as easy as today.at APBAHQ does the points.
1. Heat races would get the regular 400, 300, 225 points
2. At the end of the day, the Chief Scorer/Scorer would count how many boats were in the class... C Hydro winner 400 National Points plus 9 for 9 boats...Would be one way to do it... (If I find the Russ Hill Point System I'll post it...It was written in 1962... Andy Fraclick has a cool point system)...

3. BMX ran "OPEN" Races, so you didn't move up too fast...I thought that a person should be allowed to revert back to Novice after an 18 month lay off...As most young racers move up too fast and then out the door...

Region 12
Races SST 45 for OPC Points (Both days, this year) and if time permits we run 45 SST (Stock) on the long course....At our smaller races we race both classes. OPC doesn't allow two point races in a day.

If you'll read my post, somewhere here, I suggest OPC establish SST 45 Marathon and Closed Course points, and allow points each day...OPC, like others, see things through their eyes. Like usual, I thought my ideas were great...

Including having a Local Class The "NEW" 36 Runabout....

Ask Sam Hemp about my BMX Racing.....Actually I never really raced...I asked ABA for and got a 40 and over class Cruisers....... Still didn't help my neck when I wore my Simpson full face helmet....And the final straw, Chad could beat me and he was FIVE!!!

Ron, The Chief Scorer does not award points. Just order of finish. Cindy at APBAHQ awards points.

[Dr. Thunder]

Confusion ... misinformation?

Please do not vote on this issue until you hear the remainder of the proposal and explanations. I'm compiling all the information and will post it ASAP. Please give me a few days before you vote. There is a lot of confusion and misinformation out there that needs to be clarified. John 2-Z

Dave Schubert, Brian Trolian, Bob Trolian, Tom Johnson, Steve Warnock, Tammy Dawe, Jim Nilsen, Steve Wilde, Dave Anderson, Roger Carr, Ed Runne, John Runne, Dudley Smith ... confusion and misinformation ... I don't know ... at least 7 of the above SORC members voted in favor of this going to the membership as a referendum item. So, just what is the problem?

[dholt]

Commitment to National standing?

Since 1988, the DSR class failed to show up at the Nationals with enough boats to compete 8 times.

No other class in SO during those years has failed to race at the Nationals.

In 2006, only 4 DSR drivers out of 17 raced in more than 1 closed course event.


We'd all like to see 50 DSR's 50 45ssT's. I know I would. I wish every class had 100 boats for that matter.

Perhaps every class will grow, if the number of options to choose from was decreased.