Hydro Construction

[Jeff Akers]

Jeff,

The add on panels to existing sides will be safe, just not UIM for adhesion to the decks. I thought a lot about that one, no easy way to do it as each boat has different deck lines, and to leave some material hangine loose it most likley would not lay on the deck correctly. So these would not make a boat UIM compliant, only more to APBA specs if the rules get passed the way it seems to be going.

I have thought a lot about that too...(how would one go about making a pre-fab panel with the UIM min overlap avalliable for upgrading existing boats as well as new boats ?) no easy task as you stated, with all the different deck lines out there.....I thought you might have found a way around the problem....Thanks for the explenation.

[Corin_Huke]

Just because the Europeans are doing it is not enough to make it fact. They were wrong on Communism and Facism too ...

Doug - just to pick up on the above comment. The whole reinforced cockpit rule was introduced by the powerboating racing World governing body, the UIM. It's not something that us Europeans just happened to adopt and then pushed through with the UIM. We happened to take it on board sooner than you guys, really because we had no real option as all our international racing in under the auspices of the UIM

I know what you are saying - just because someone does it, it doesn't mean it's necessarily correct

However, the UIM has specific committees when it comes to safety, rule making, etc. One would hope that in arriving at certain rules and recomendations, they put in the necessary research before hand......or have they!? (just me being cynical)

Accordng to the last UIM yearbook, the safety committee (Cominsafe) who I assume looks at aspects like this consisted of:-

Bob Wartinger (President) - USA
Per Benson - Sweden
Antonio Dal Monte - Italy
Saeed Harbe - UAE
Fred Hauenstein - USA
Sonny Hawkins - USA
Jean-Francois Modoux - Switzerland
Umberto Panzeri - Italy
John Reed - UK

I'm not advocating a witch hunt, far from it(!), but may be Bob and others can throw some light on the matter and answer the questions that you guys have

Corin

PS - and what's this about getting Communism and Facism wrong??? - Up the revolution!!!!!

[Dave M]

That is Why

I think some sort of construction guidelines need to be incorprated into the rules. I am not saying I like it or advocate it. If the rule is the letter of the law for APBA, then we must do it to run APBA.

It matters not what core you use, or even kevlar vs graphite (carbon). I can build a panel that would sustain a serious impact and not break. THis is not consistent with the way another boat impacts another. A whole different set of forces. Now then, the reason you saw the sides come out of the flipped boat most likely was construction methods. Bottom line is, the composite is only as strong as what it is glued to. Glue it to 3mm plywood only and you might as well be gluing it to paper. In this case I am talking about a composite panel, added in to a boat and attaching it. Kind of defeates the whole purpose of having the side in my opinion. I might be wrong, but it is still my opinion. I am not good with math figures, but I do have common sense. Steve R can probably quote you math figures to this affect. I simply test the strength in my shop destroying a panel or two and derive at my solutions from that. I use all sorts of advanced techniques, my foot, a hammer, a vice, sometimes a large railroad rail swinging into it. Ya, the ones that are like 100 pounds per foot. I could not tell you the math involved there, but I can tell you the results with my panels.

Simply put, there is no one solution that will make it completely safe. We all accept the inherent risk when we strap on the helmets and fire up the engine to go race. While we can make it safer, we are not going to elminate deaths or injuries as each accident has its own set of parameters that may or may not have been tested. I still feel driving is the most important saftey feature we can have in our boats. Don't be stupid. And enforce the rules. If that occured I imagine one would think twice about taking the corner blowing someone over. Even though it was a boat length, legal Mod/Stock, does not make it right. The Pro rule is cockpit to cockpit. In that case you KNOW it is coming. Might be a better rule and make you drive smarter to stay out of that situation....

I like that safety is moving to the forefront of racing. I had my new boat built with kevlar sides and rounded pickels. With this in mind, I would like to know if anyone or any organization has hard facts compiled from testing to prove that the new rules will actually make it safer. If such data exisits, I would hope someone would post the data for me and others to download and read. If data does not exist, I believe mock ups should be created of each possible sample cockpit side, testing conducted and the data posted to read.

The post above about cars being designed to crush in a crash makes me step back and think a bit. This post gives me pause that perhaps we could be moving in the wrong direction. I flipped using a boat with plywood sides and nothing happened to the sides. I saw a boat flip with carbon reinforced sides rip right open due only to water pressure, not being hit. My pure plywood sides stood up better than the carbon fiber over plywood sides. How could that be if carbon is stronger? What would a mock up test show. What does happen if the sides become too stiff and just crush the driver rather than splinter?

Just because the Europeans are doing it is not enough to make it fact. They were wrong on Communism and Facism too ...

[HRTV]

Let me put a whole different spin on this topic if I may and suggest that we are not looking in the right direction when it comes to safety on the water but rather we should be looking at our first responder system and what measures are in place to save a drivers life in that crucial window directly after the wreck has taken place. In my mind this is 100 times more important then trying to make a safer boat, you can make all the safety changes you want to the hull if the proper life support systems are not in place directly after a major wreck the type of boat sides will mean nothing.

It is my firm believe that we are playing with fire by having our own drivers work the patrol boats and saftey boats. In other words unless a trained EMT is station on the water in the center of the course what measures are currently in place to save a drivers life at the scene of a wreck before he or she is transported to the shore line often times this could mean the difference between life and death.

My point is not to paint such a grim picture but rather to shift the focus off the safety of the boat which in most cases plays a very small role once the human body has sustained major trauma. Lets here some different ideas on how we could better beef up our current first responder system once a wreck has taken place.

How many trained EMT's should be on the water ?
Should anyone under the age of 21 be allowed to work a safety boat?
Should a valid CPR card be required to work on the safety boat ?
How does a 130lb 16 year old help lift a 200 pound soaking wet unresponsive driver out of the water ?
Do we have the correct life saving gear in each safety boat ?

[DougMc]

Excellent post Dan.

[csh2z]

Dan, I know at least in regions 1,2,3,4,6 it is mandatory (in the region by-laws).to have one or two EMT's on the water at all times and there is always the most experienced adult in the rescue boats. I don't know about other regions. It is also mandatory in Stock Outboard, at least, to have two rescue boats on the water at all times. Unfortunately sometimes even that is not good enough. Prevention is the best approach. Some of our course layouts can also cause problems. We see more accidents at some courses on a regular basis whereas on other courses accidents are very rare. John 2-Z

[kws]

Good post Dan
One if the issues here is diff. EMS rules. for instance at one of our races there is NO ONE from the ambulance crew is allowed on our rescue boats. this is their rules, not ours of course. they are not allowed to man equipment
they don't own.

[Matt Dagostino]

Safety.....??

Prevention is the best approach. Some of our course layouts can also cause problems. We see more accidents at some courses on a regular basis whereas on other courses accidents are very rare. John 2-Z

I wonder if legislating a 1000ft run to the first turn in lieu of the former 1500ft minimum at the National Championship event is in line with the 'prevention' argument mentioned above. Seems like the commish took a step backwards in 'course safety' on this one and are making contridictory statements now that the alcohol has worm off.........not a sermon,just a thought.

I know, back to work!!!

[Dave M]

Ems

Dan,

Good point, I know at all the races I attend, there is an EMT on the rescue boat. I have been in the rescue boat many times with them. They all complain about being out there that long... and I only have to do a set or two. They swap out EMT's, usually only two on site, once a day or so.

So there is another point towards shortening the race day, in the name of saftey ! Thanks Dan !!

I think we all see the points here, and the general intent is to be safer. I think the point I get out of this is, there are no amount of saftey rules that will make it even 80% safe. Racing has inherent risks. We accept that or we stay on shore and help out.

Best of luck to all.

[Fast Jack]

think outside the box?

I think we have to look at building boats with more deformability in the bow sections, what you are hit by can be more important than how you are protected. I worked for one of the top rowing shell builders in the world, and we would get hulls back that were cut in half in when struck by a similar hull, If the front of our boats were a crush zone you would be less likely to penetrate the side of another boat. Carbon breaks with a saw like edge. Kevlar ( without resin ) will stop penetration . perhaps a sewn pannel installed inside the coming would provide the best protection , Sewn Kevlar will stop a chain saw and probibly would provide the best protacction against a spinning cleaver.... Kind of like a cut suit for your boat. Shawn ps .... The vest I wore for years was Kevlar, without epoxy.