Plight of the Bumbled D

[NUT2F]

Don’t you think the D class numbers have dropped really because of two reasons.

The majority of stockers don’t want to spend that kind of money on an engine.
Most importantly most don’t want to go 85 MPH in a hydro.

My personal feeling is the numbers did not drop because there is a lack of equipment. They dropped because there is a drop in the number of guys that want to race the class.

I agree with Don, if your going to spend that why not go race in the Pro Division( I did, but nothing compares to a 44XS on a race course!!!)

Peanut
p.s. Very well stated 13V

[ryan_4z]

I have been saying for years now that CMH has replaced DSH. The inexpensive, low maintenance, and readily available Yamatos have been a more viable option for this speed range class than the Merc. This is an example of one way in which the close association of Stock and Mod has hurt the Stock category. I am of the opinion that if we didn't race together, a majority of the Yamato powered CMHs would probably be DSHs.

[dholt]

Rational Discussion

It's refreshing to read a rationally discussed topic on this site for a change.

The 'D' issue could easily be applied to several other classes...namely the 'B' and '25'.

All are struggling with participation, and there are sketchy plans, at best, to help them recover.

'D' has hit the front page because it's the first to get a new engine. The new 'B' Hot Rod is coming. The jury is still out on how that integration will go with the old motors.


At any rate, Don Allen brings up the core of the problem with not only 'D' but the other weak classes ('B' and '25'). WHY have they declined? Lack of motors...or lack of interest?

I have participation data from all classes from mid 80's to early 90's...then late 90's to today.

Of course, all classes are down from mid 80's.

But several have rebounded and either grown or maintained participation from mid 90's to today.

I'll stick with DSH since it's the topic at hand.


DSH peaked in mid 80's with 120 boats. 2005 saw 42 compete. The big drop off occurred after the Merc Challenge went away in early 90's, then steady decline to mid 90's. The class has been at the 30-40 boat range since '97.

OK...so why the drop off? At one time, 120 guys wanted to go 82 mph.

1. Obviously, many were running DSH because of Payouts from Merc Challenge. Once the money and prestige went away, so did many drivers.

2. Motors went out of production. Harder to find an engine in 2000 than it was in 1988.

3. General decline in entire Stock Outboard racing population. All classes declined since mid 80's. Lack of participants.

4. Don't totally buy the "not many guys want to go 82mph in a hydro" arguement. DMH has maintained around 60 boats for the past 6 years. Same engine...just faster. Brian...tell me...which is more expensive to run...DMH or DSH? You've told me before it's DMH...but let the rest of the country in on it.

But DSH has taken a bigger hit than many other classes. 65% drop in participation from 1987. NO growth since 1997. 11 boats at the Nationals in 2005. 12 at Whitney Pt. in 2004. NONE at Grass Lake in 2005. Lucky to see more than 4-5 boats at any weekend race unless you race in Wisconsin.

Do any of the above statements sound like an arguement to maintain the status quo? Who could be happy with what has gone on the past several years?


The Bass thing certainly could have been handled better. But it's a start...and the sky hasn't fallen yet. No one is blowing away the 44XS at this point. Something is being done to try to help DSH...so more than 11 show up at the Nationals...and more than 4-5 show up at weekend races.

I agree parity is really hard to achieve between engines...and am very skeptical based on 30 years of history. I'll be facing the same issue when the new 'B' Hot Rod comes out. But I say progress is always worth a try. If not, you die standing still. And that's unacceptable.


Dana

[14-H]

Who's D Stock Class

I have expressed my opinions on this class ad nauseum. I'll only reiterate three points: (1) The D class is dying. You've got a better solution..., I've yet to hear it ("leave us alone" is not a solution). (2) Any time the D Merc guys want to pay for the high tech testing they insist on having which Brian admits would be ignored anyway, please make the check payable to APBA-SO Promotional Fund and send to the APBA Headquarters POB 377 Eastpointe Michigan 48021. (3) To the 44 Merc guys: D Stock Hydro is not YOUR CLASS! It is all of Stock Outboard's and all of APBA's. That class is important to more than just the competitors in D Stock Hydro. It is important for the other SO participants, other categories' classes such as, for instance, the D Mod class, it's important for the clubs that put the class on the sanction and rely upon the entry fees and the other categories who gain their future racers from that class, just to name a few. That is one of the reasons that Stock Outboard has never allowed the membership of a particular class to make the final decision on which engines should be allowed in a class. All of the category through its representatives makes the decision. Ed.

[Big Don]

Dana not disagreeing with you just trying to get facts…. aren’t those DMH numbers skewed because there are Stock guys that run their D against them just to get a second ride for the day?

Plus how many guys in both classes run it just occasionally because their buddy let them run their rig or second rig? Maybe that is not important.

Donny has run 25H the last two years to make numbers at a race but that does not make him a 25 driver.

Hopefully we aren’t getting Brian post off subject here.

If we don't look towards the future their won't be anyone left to race against

[Tim Weber]

The one thing about this discussion not really mentioned is you have to race the new motor.

Dyno tests and theoritcal discussion is great but what will it do in competition?

Alex was the first place any of us in the east has ever seen a Tohatsu run.
It didn't run great. It was on an old boat and definately not dialed in. It sounds real cool, sort of SST 60 ish.

My feeling is let it run. If the " boycott" is continued, shame on the boycotters. The Tohatsu few have a long way to go before they catch the 13-V, if ever. If they do start to out run the better Mercs, lets have some faith in the parity comittee.

Bottom line, there isn't enough of us left. Anything to get new people on the water is a good idea.

Ed & Mike, your leadership on this issue is the correct approach. Espicially Mike, I know the D is near and dear as you were Mr. DSR.

Tim

[dholt]

DMH/DSH good point

Don,

Yes, you're right. DMH is skewed because of DSH drivers stepping up to run.

But it's still safe to say there are at least as many or more 'true' DMH boats as DSH. 63 DMH ran in 2005. Safe to say 15 -20 were 'stock' rigs.



And yes, let's not get off topic of Brian's well composed post.

[AOFoffice]

It looks like maybe Brian has no confidence in the parity committee. How about making Brian a member of that committee?

[mike ross]

2 of the 4 people on the parity commitee I know Brian is comfortable with. Mike Wienandt- Him and his brother Jerry are very well respected by Palmquist Raciing, Mark Wheeler- Fellow racer with all kinds of influence with APBA and it workings. Neil Bass and Steve Wilde are both very knowledgeable boat racers and I don't think Brian has any problems with them either. Remember that super fast FEH Brian had in LA. It was sporting one of Neils Bass' great gear cases.

[Big Don]

Weather you agree with the protesters or not, the most important question that needs to be asked is the protesting done? If a Tohatsu shows up to a race will the Mercury DSH drivers race the DSH class? I feel it is only fair to let the Tohatsu owners know before they drive several hours to a race to find out there are drivers that will not go on the water with them.

[Big Don]

Why was is ok to only let the BSR drivers vote on their boats, but DSH drivers can't vote on their engines? Seems pretty similar to me.

[David Weaver]

Maybe We Need A Esh And Esr Class It Cost About The Same To Build A Feh Or Fer Motor But You Got To Do Most Of The Work Your Self. Maybe People Would Like To Go Fast With Out The Cost And Time Involved With Mod Boats. I Would Like To Try It But I Dont Thank They Should Be On The Water At The Same Time As The D-stocks.

Right!. Plus there are another 21 letters in the alphabet, so keep adding classes until everyone is satisfied!

[14-H]

Why was is ok to only let the BSR drivers vote on their boats, but DSH drivers can't vote on their engines? Seems pretty similar to me.

Bowman was the chairman then. I had nothing to do with it. Procedure was wrong but reached the correct outcome.

[Steve Warnock]

Proceedures

Ed,

I know full well how you run your commision meetings when it comes to what is a ballot item vs a non ballot item. I am not a Roberts Rules expert but have learned over time.

However, over time past and present it has been generally the Chairmans prerogative to identify what is a ballot item or not, as agreed by his/her commision.
Past precedence, Giles(1988) was kinda helter skelter but some individuals at that time tried to coach the outcome from the audience. Racer(1989) was kinda the same. Under my term we tired for the most part to identify at the time of the commision vote whether or not it was a commision vote or membership/class vote. Safety being more of the commision vote and class technical stuff (boat-motor) in favor of the class membership.

I think Bowman was more of the same, but under the Jones leadership was presurred in some of the commision decisions primarily the 15 Merc.

So, unless it is written somewhere, these decisions as to whether the members vote or not is up to the leadership at that time. Please correct me if I'm wrong. One other view is how the Mods have handle some of their decisions from their meetings, I guess I'll have to go back to the Dick Engler era on that one as he copied what the Stocks were e doing at that time.

To answer Don III, it is up to the Chair how he or she wants to handle the vote.

Again Ed, correct me if I'am wrong, maybe with some do***entation.

Not trying to challenge here, but to state what has happened in the past for future leaders here.

Warbs

[jpro60]

How Valid is all of this concern?

Hey all,
I'm really not here to make a stink, so don't think that. That said, as an outside observer with not a whole lot of current interest in the D class it seems to me that some of this concern may be a little premature. That is to say that I've seen the Tohatsu run on multiple occasions in region 10 where it was tested, and it was nowhere near the Merc motor. Just out of curiosity how many people have actually even raced against the Tohatsu yet, and if you have did it beat you? It seems to me that a lot of this concern is based on speculation at this point, everyone is assuming that someone will get the Tohatsu right, and that when they do it will be faster, but is there any proof of this?
-Mike
P.S. By all means if any of my statements/ assumptions are incorrect, set them right, no stink involved.