The Silly Season

[ryan_4z]

Now we are talking, Dana! This is the kind of SIMPLICITY we need!

Let me re-counter:

-A Stock- as is.

-C stock- as is

-B Stock-
-25ssR becomes BSR, no changes,
-20ssH becomses BSH. SW gets +1/4" in height. Reason: This is a minimal change. There is a chance for real parity here. The class is close as is. Dylan is not a fair representative of how Sidwinders run against Yamatos. He can't beat Pater like the rest of us can't beat anyone. A +1/4" would give the Sidewinder a legit fighting chance, with development. (As Dad said, I have data to show this.) But the 302 would still be the preferable option to those who want to win.

-Spec classes- -300ssH, as is.
-20ssR -Sidewinder Spec Class. Sealed Sidewinders and Bottom Fin runabouts. Other boat specs to make boats similar. Current BSR drivers and boat builders can convene on specs that are agreed will perform well and keep legal majority of current boats if possible. Simple specs like bottom width, keel break, and Vee at dash can bring all boats within a narrow spectrum.

Stock Outboard. Eight classes.

[csh-2z]

Ryan, get off the computer and finish that boat! LOL

Hey, I think that is my first ever LOL!

[pav225]

Has anyone asked ASR drivers what it would take to get them to race BSR?

[ryan_4z]

I love this question. I have talked to a number of bigger, veteran drivers who would consider B if the weights were raised. Have not heard much from this side of the spectrum.

[PittmanRacing]

Side fin, weight change (heavier), and reliability of motors (fix the motors so the flywheels don't fly off).

[ryan_4z]

Hey Mike, What about this..

We do a joint test session in effort to achieve parity in 20ss. I have long believed parity is one motor, but the 20 class by far gives us the best shot at really great racing from different manufacturers. We are almost there already. The top BSH rig can run with but not consistently beat the very top Yamato rigs. That is our only real sampling. I have had moderate success within my region but struggled against top competition. Kyle Bahl has had similar results. Hardly anybody else has even given 20ss a go with the Sidewinder. Two reasons for this: Weight, and, the Sidewinder has a class of it's own. (Which it cannot sustain.)

I am saying, since it is not sustainable for the B class to grow on the Sidewinder, and since the Yamato 321 will struggle to keep afloat, nevertheless grow, the 4-5 Yamato classes, and since we should not greatly alter the universally successful 20ss class (not being sarcastic here, really agree with you on this now), and since we should eliminate classes, especially those that are small in number, then we can make big change here and just tweak 20ss a little bit and not even ever talk about it going away ever again.

So, if you want to get together, you bring your best 20ss Yamato game, I will bring my B hydro, props and parts and variables and all, and we will see what the Sidewinder has for the Yamato. And we can propose a joint agreement on how to get parity in 20ss. This move would project growth for the class to near 150 boats by next year. Good racing between different powerplants makes for an interesting dynamic. Over the last 10 years the only two classes in Stock Outboard to maintain consistent numbers are 20ssH and 25ssR. Maybe there is a recipe here that is working. Maybe get rid of all the outlier classes and consolidate everyone to where they are already racing. This is a workable dynamic, only more effort must be given to parity. I imagine that yearly tweakings are not abnormal in motorsports. We just need a firm and consistent model and structure to ease the minds and hearts of the peeps.

[pav225]

That's really fast!
1/2" below the bottom at 400 lbs.
No restrictor?

[ryan_4z]

Yeah it is! Holy Crap!

[deeougee]

Unrestricted.

[Tim Weber]

Uncle.......Ryan!

I’’ll supply the beer.

Tim

[ryan_4z]

I will drink the beer. We can take data on that too.

Spotted Cow is preferable.

[Karl Dyle]

Dilly Dilly

[modracer7b]

As an observation to the BSR class and the handful of drivers that want to force this to be a roll up class. Did it ever occur to this handful of drivers that maybe most drivers do not want to compete in a rollup only class. I raced A and B runabout back in the decade of the 60's against all the old time great roll up drivers and won a few titles while doing it and frankly feel there is nothing better to drive than a flat turner. Maybe this could be one of the reasons for the classes failure to grow. Me personally, would not even consider a roll up only class. If you want to roll up, then by all means do it, but don't try to force it on people and then wonder why they won't run the class.

Bill Rosado

[csh-2z]

Bill, When they say roll up they're actually just talking about the fin has to be located on the bottom of the boat rather than just below the sheer line. Back in the day, there were certainly flat turning runabouts but the fin was on the bottom. However, the point you make is why there is discussion of the issue. comes a time when everything eventually changes.

[CSR4C]

Runabout racing was much better when the fins were on the bottom, or no fin at all. I loved racing my ASR at Yelm with no fin and sliding side ways through the big turns. What Stover Hire could do with a Hedlund B Runabout was amazing!

[modracer7b]

I understand what you are saying, but I was one of the first to be flat turning a roll up boat with no fin where you came off the corner aiming at the infield. I did it on small two pin turns as well as big multiple pin turns, also ran courses where I flat turned one end and rolled up the other end because of wind and water conditions, but still feel the best ride for me is the true flat turner.

[GRMead]

I write this as a non racer/ parent trying to support my kids new endeavors/ fan of all this fast n' wild. I've started my two boys this year with old hydro and two OMC's and we dabbled late this season in JH, AXH and even one In A at three different sites. So the idea of what I'm writing could have been discussed a hundred times over and I would know it but here it goes....
Junior classes
I understand after being at races the difficulty in solving 'motor parity' with multiple motors in each class. I think it's important in the junior classes to allow newcomer drivers to use the older omc's when starting out. Personal experience, it was the only way we would have ever been able to get started, as the mercury 15 is beyond us financially and there are too many stowed secrets to make the average joe even want to touch one, and so the omc reduces barrier to entry. And that option should always be available to newcomers Eventually once hooked, I'm sure new families will eventually find their way to mercs if they really want to be competitive and buy into the sport.
So the BH class/ 20SSH class. To the outsider, this class does not appear the starting point for many new racers. Rather it's an established place for racers to spend time and money on equipment and be comfortable for a long while. Maybe never going into CH or CR.
If you combine the 20ss/b classes, why not let all the existing, established racers ride out their years with their Yamato 80's. Use APBA 2018 registration numbers in the 20ssh class to be the cutoff point for using Yamato 80's and let all new registrants to the new combined class (B) join with the 20 sidewinder. Let the guru's work out the parity between the 80 and sidewinder, which, from what I'm reading, these motors are similar in performance?
B runabout... same idea. Combine 25 mercs, 80's and 20 sidewinder but all new registrants to the class after 2018 have to use sidewinder 20's. (The 25 mercs, same deal, just work on parity till they fade off into the sunset. Seems there are only a few out there anyways)
All racing, whether motor cross, Nascar, drag, karting,boat...whatever.... should always be forward thinking. No Motorsport should ever move backwards. It should always be cutting edge or moving toward 'newer' technologies. Is a year enough time for sidewinder to ramp up efforts to have 20's ready for younger drivers trying to find their next ride in B?
Save the 300/321 for the sealed classes as racers move up to C eventually.
I know this is overly simplistic, but let the 80's eventually fade out as drivers retire happily rather than forced out. Try and level the playing field in what would be a newly combined 'B class' hydro and runabout with those two motors. Keep your Veterans happy and give newer drivers a CLEAR pathway to the future, so they can proudly say..'I can't wait to race B' , rather than try to avoid the storm altogether, and skip the class in entirety.
There's enough experience here to figure out how to level the playing field. Veterans will always have the edge in the class with years of experience and a trailer full of good props, no matter what motor.
FLRC does a great job with the B classic hydro. More clubs could do the same and keep those older Yamatos and older B motors running and having fun. Two years in a row I've enjoyed watching that heat more than any other. At the club level there will always be a place for b classic, but think to the future please. A perfect place for all those who want to run roll ups too, B classic runabout

[Ram4x4]

Most other motorsports don't have the engine availability issues we face. In our sport, we can't really afford to force viable, running engines out of the game because they very likely will take the drivers with them. Also, once a driver reaches that age where they are ready to retire, then their engines are perfectly suitable to be sold to new drivers (and that's how and why so many of them are still around). It's not like we have 5 or 6 or more brands to choose from; outside the J's, or D classes, we have Yamato and Sidewinder. Somewhere in all that we have to find a way to keep the currently running boats and engines while ensuring more Yamatos and Sidewinders also have classes to race in.

[Herb Lanphear]

I believe that someone important in history said" information is power".I also believe that we all assume too much with regards to why people have left stock outboard racing over the last 20 years. APBA has a complete listing of everyone who has ever left our sport but no follow up information regarding why? Knowing that information could and most probably would have a profound impact on any future decision making!I will take it a step further, design a survey which would encompass 4 to 5 reasons( no need for too many variables)with room for further explanation if they wanted. Get me a current list of those members over the last 10 years with as much info as possible, I will try to reach every one of them. Then , do the same with the members that have joined stock outboard over the last 10 years with a different survey set of questions, and speculation as too "why ",will be revealed.I will call every one of those people as well! Ignoring , gleeming over ,or assumption ,can only lead to poor decision making no matter where it is implemented! I would submit to you that information would be very valuable, not to mention a way to incentivize a possible return, or what would would it take for you to return? These lists could be circulated by region to all of the associated clubs, the options are endless, free club dues, reduced membership fees, invitations to local driver schools, invitation to the next local club meeting, the list is endless with possibilities! The easiest new person to attract, has to be someone who at least some previous experience. "Information is power"!!!!!

[csh-2z]

Herb, Good write up. The Promotional Committee has a survey which consists of 5 questions for recent members that did not join this past season. We are working on expanding that list to include prior years. Currently our APBA database is being updated to give us more information in an easier more efficient format. That is not quite completed yet, but it will be soon. Once it is complete, we'll have all of the access we need. We have asked that the BOD members make those phone calls (because it is that important) during this off season and the BOD under the past president agreed to do so. I'm sure the new BOD will also agree to work with us on this issue.

[GrandpaRacer]

You guys are right to look at the reasons why people quit racing boats. Often they don’t quit racing, but quit racing boats and go onto go karts, dirt bikes or whatever. So the common stated reasons ring hollow like it’s too expensive or takes too much time or too far to travel. There has to be more to it. Every form of racing has drawbacks like dusty dirty tracks or hot asphalt parking lots full of unfriendly rednecks. But boat racing usually puts you on the grass where you camp for a weekend on a lake side location. When you are not racing you are in and out of the water helping you friends and your competitors are usually also your friends. You and your kids and perhaps your parents are all also joining in on the hobby unlike any other. And then there is boat racing itself, flying across the water in a little wooden boat at astonishing speeds followed by huge rooster tails is just cool. Fun and exciting for sure. Any boat racer will tell you what’s the most fun and exciting part of boat racing. It’s not winning, tho winning is fun, but they will say the most fun is running flat out, side by side with your friendly competitor lap after lap until that final sprint to the finish! When your in one of those races whether you win or not you come into the beech all pumped up and excited! This is the case if you were racing for 4th and 5th or even 10th and 11th. All you want to do is go out and do it again! This is what keeps us involved, even if you are like me too old to drive the boat, but are part of the crew. You are ‘racing’ with your driver and get almost as excited while standing on the beech! At the end of the day you can sit around the camp fire with family and friends and talk about that great race and what you should have done and what you are going to do tomorrow. What could be better? Why would anyone want to stop doing this?


Really that is the question we need to ask and answer. I don’t think people stop because they don’t like the class structure or get bored watching the same motor running in three different classes. Cost is often stated as a reason but boat racing with little outboard motors is about the cheapest form of motor sport racing there is. While cost sometimes is a real issue, if you look at the motorhomes, campers and fancy trailers on the beech, cost doesn’t seem like the big issue.

I think the reason people stop is that it isn’t fun any more for them. How could the picture I painted above not be fun? Well if you are the back marker and rarely get a chance to experience the thrill of racing that would be a reason. The Rookie classes address this well I think and provide the chance to gain experience. Another reason could be getting a good start, being in the mix, having a great time side by side racing and instead of finishing with a big smile you come to the beech at the end of a tow rope. Your boat is busted, your motor is submerged, and you are madd as hell. Because instead of racing for the week end as planned you have a big problem to deal with because that other guy sawed you off, completely unnecessarily! Sure it was legal but your weekend is ruined. Worse yet that same jerk has done it before. In fact he does it all the time and never gets called for an infraction. He’s faster so what’s the point? Eventually you say screw it, I am outa here! This I believe is why people quit!! APBA must address this or we will continue to lose racers.
John Adams

[GrandpaRacer]

Don, exactly! One boat length is not safe and we all know it. Even in J it is not a safe maneuver!
John Adams

[Harold8]

I find that turn judges don’t want to make the call because they aren’t 100% sure and they don’t want to cause any trouble!

[Ram4x4]

I don't know so much that anyone doesn't want to make a call is it is they can't always be 100% sure. I'll raise my hand in that regard because I got caught out in that exact scenario this past year. Sometimes it's hard to see everything that happens in a turn, especially when you have a pack of boats that span all the way around the turn. Your head is on a swivel.

In my case, the two lead boats entered, went through the turn very close to each other, but there was a pack of boats right behind and I was trying to watch it all. I managed to glance back to the two lead boats as they were exiting the turn. From my angle and the brief time involved, it appeared the lead boat cut the 2nd boat going around the last buoy, but I wasn't sure. Fortunately, the rescue boat was sitting close enough to the line they assisted in the call. The 2nd place boat couldn't hold his line and slipped out through the 1st place boat's rooster tail as they exited the turn. I agreed on the call, not because I know that for fact, but it made sense when considering the physics of turning. Do we have enough eyes in the turns?

I've been chopped more than once, or at least I thought I was and have never had it called, but I also didn't take it to the referee because I wasn't sure and we weren't exactly battling out front of the group.

I do agree, though that 1 boat length is not safe. I've remained outside a line many times, even when I clearly had at least a boat length, if not more, because I don't want to blow someone over or cause other problems. It's not worth it when we're running in the middle or back of the group.

[dholt]

You guys out west must be some cut throat SOB's because I've never heard anyone on this side of the Mississippi say they quit racing because of getting chopped too many times.
Usually the guys getting hacked are running near the front of the field because a battle for 1st means a heck of a lot more than a battle for 10th. So if you're battling near the front...why quit?
I've been chopped plenty. My reaction? Beat the guy the next time we race!

[Big Don]

Dana, I was amazed at how brutal it is out West. Watching them battle before the 1 minutes is as exciting as the first turn.

[GrandpaRacer]

I have not been chopped in 20 years (haven't been in a hydro that long either) but have witnessed the carnage at the end of the tow rope and watched the anger on the beech. You can believe it is not a factor, I think it is. Since you have to get in front to do the chopping often it isn't a fast guy being chopped. And the fast guys don't drop out of racing much either.

[Matt Dagostino]

John...........you need better turn-judges maybe! This 'hopscotching' crap they do during milling is illegal as milling counts as being under race rules! Maybe pitch some of these aggressive drivers and they will get the message! I for one support 'eyeball to eyeball' racing hence if the trailing boat can't make it to the throttle of the lead boat they better back off or be prepared to get chopped.

[csh-2z]

John, I look at this issue from a different perspective than most. As a Referee, I make it a practice to inform the drivers and the turn judges to be very careful with their judgment about the overlap rule. I've spent much of the last few years, after retiring from driving, as a turn judge in the patrol boats. What I've noticed, as both a driver and turn judge, is that in most cases it isn't the lead boat cutting off the guy behind him on the inside lane, as much as the inside boat trying to force the overlap. When in that position, it is almost human behavior like, to hold that throttle until the last possible second and try to squeeze into a lane that won't necessarily be there once at the buoy. Also, in doing so, the "overtaking" boat is now going too fast to hold the inside lane around the turn, which makes it appear as though he was cut off. Chances are, the whole incident was self inflicted.

Something else to consider in that scenario is, there is too much responsibility put on the driver of the lead boat. The lead driver has to take his eye off of what is in front of him to look behind him and judge the distance between boats. I don't know if I trust their judgment going 55-60 mph or more in the split second he has to make the right decision. The inside trailing driver is in a much better position to make the decision to throttle it up or be prepared to back off.

Also, many young drivers are much more aggressive behind the wheel for their own, or somebody else's good. Don't be afraid to talk to any driver about this subject. And make it very clear to all that enforcing this rule consistently and confidently is very important. It is mostly about safety. By making the call when necessary helps to prevent what could be a serious injury in the future. Everybody needs to know they're being watched.

John Runne

[GrandpaRacer]

Good points John, that scenario can happen as well. Also, the lead boat driver sometimes looks you in the eye and grabs a hand full of wheel and saws you off! What we need to talk about is why we have a rule that allows a boat to be sawed off at one boat length when every drivers knows it is unsafe to do so! The current rule says you can go out and at full speed chop a guy off at one boat length. As a minimum, the person being chopped can not see for 2 -3 seconds, will travel blindly for 100-200ft or more at 60mph, often get his windshield and boat damaged and worse get blown over with all the associated risks. What possible value to the sport of racing does this rule contribute?