The Silly Season

[pav225]

Deeougee,
People can chose to spend as much money on their race equipment as they want. Just look at all the cool tow vehicles, trailers, paint jobs, etc etc.
You can buy a SW and go racing. You can also buy a new Yamato and go racing, but you will need to do the gearcase. I would disagree that you need to take the motor apart and spend thousands on machining etc. Just like spending money on a trick tow vehicle, you can chose to spend you money on the internals of your Yamato or SW, but you don't need to in order to be competitive.
It's important that newer folks, especially, understand that you don't need to be a "motor wizard" to be competitive. Your time and money is better spent testing and getting lots of boat time.
Happy Thanksgiving,
- Mike

[ryan_4z]

Gotta agree with Pav on this. I have seen stock powerheads perform very well. The gearfoot, however, with no question would have to be shaped.

[deeougee]

I have to agree with you guys on the stock powerhead also. Was reminded ran one for a race and did quite well (won). Had a great prop though. I do know a great engine will not overcome a great prop and setup so your definitely right on that one. Don't want newbies to get the wrong impression here. But you have to test to get the most out of you and your equipment and a bad start will nullify any equipment advantage.

[pav225]

I agree, you need a good prop, start,and boat.
The point I was making is that you can be very competitive with a stock powerhead. It is not true to say you need to spend thousands of dollars on a motor to make it work. That does nothing to help the sport and would probably scare someone new.

[Big Don]

My biggest decision, Apple, Cherry ,Apple Caramel, Pecan or Pumpkin Pie.....hmmmmm, maybe a little of each.

Everyone have a great day because at the end of all this other... stuff, we still are all friends, have to go to work and this stuff really has no impact on anything.

[Matt Dagostino]

My guess is you will have a slice of all of them..........Happy Turkey Day!!............The Captain.

[flatsmoke]

Now you're talking my language Don.
Happy Thanksgiving everybody!
Lee Sutter

[ryan_4z]

Alright, so obviously I have been looking at this all backwards. So, how about this:

-We get rid of BSH. Now the SW must have at least equal footing in 20ssH so we make the appropriate parity adjustments in 20ssH.

-20ssH parity adjustments:
-Lower weight for SW to 380-385 lbs.
-Change heights of all motors to 3/4" below bottom.

(Obviously we should rename 20ssH BSH to keep A,B,C consistency, but all new B records and champions would be recorded with 20ss records and champions as was done with 15ss in '92. But, I mean, Jesus, if everyone likes the name 20ss so much I would never bicker over a detail like that.)

[pav225]

I can't keep up. I thought we were discussing growing BSH by including Y80s for a time and adding side fins to BSR.

[ryan_4z]

What about making BSR a sealed motor class? Any thoughts on that? Would this make the class more attractive to racers who do not want to work on their own motors? Would this be a way to help consumer confidence if their sealed motors had some sort of warranty? If the class doesn't grow, get rid of it. Make parity adjustments to 25ssR.

[Big Don]

But if we got rid of BSR, it would then be a side fin class and the 10 BSR drivers would go away.

[Big Don]

So let’s look at the numbers, this is based off 2016 numbers, because I have not done them for 2017 yet.

If we take anyone that did not race a class 3 times or more and drop them out of the numbers it looks like this.

CSH	74
20SSH	65
CSR	45
300SSH	34
ASH	33
25SSR	25
ASR	16
BSH	12
BSR	10
DSH	9
45SST	9
25SSH	2
DSR

I’m not sure why we want to do anything to 20SSH. It our second biggest class we have. We would have to be out of our minds to mess with it.

We can say we don’t like watching the same engines on the water but news flash, we only have 2 engine manufactures (excluding the D stuff) Sidewinder & Yamato. We are going to see them on the water a lot.

Here is the bottom line to me. We have people that can afford to drop 5500.00 on engines, and we have people that can’t. We have people that like to tinker, and we have people that don’t. We have people that work at winning and we have people that don’t. We have people that can’t afford to make a major investment changes in their equipment. It’s always been this way. We better work at keeping both or none of us will be racing. I have to believe most that race Yamato’s like that they are inexpensive, easy to work on, very reliable, keeps their overall cost down year over year.

I’m not saying we should not change some of our ways, but messing with 20SSH is not one of them. This class works for Yamato. Yes people like the Allen’s, Pavlick’s, Peter’s, Clark’s, Reed’s, Runne’s, Pater’s will give in and race just C or go a different direction. But you will lose 70% of the other drivers who are on the fringe. This sport cannot afford to lose them, the occasional weekend racer. Our effort should be on ASR, BSH, BSR, DSH, 25SSH, DSR and of course 45SST. We can say that is what we are doing, but not at the expense of our second biggest class.

[ryan_4z]

What random, illogical changes have been made in the past? The SORC has been passive and resistant to change at every pass. Updating parity adjustments would not turn the class on it's head.

[pav225]

Referring to the changes in "plan" that occurs hourly:

- Kill 20ssH because the Y80 is too old.
- Add Y80 to help B grow
- 20ssH looks too much like CSH, so kill a class with 120 drivers.
- Split 20ssH into BSH and CSH.
- Call 20ssH BSH
- Drop Yamato height in 20ssH.
- etc, etc, etc

Essentially all "ideas" have some element of screwing up our 2nd largest class...except for sealing B motors and adding side fin to BSR.

The intent of the post was to try and generate ideas to improve the sport. Unfortunately it's gotten pretty far off track.

It's starting to remind me of a kid in a candy store who keeps trying to talk other kids into giving him their candy. If one idea doesn't work, its quickly replaced by another one to try and convince people it's a good idea. Its all a tremendous waste of time.

Let's hear some ideas to grow classes without cannibalizing our largest ones.

[ryan_4z]

Mike, you are reacting to my maniacal rantings as though they are legislation, dude. No change has ever happened. Nothing, not for years and years, outside little tweakings here and there. And, despite how hard I try, it is likely that nothing will. Don't worry, the status quo will prevail. That is what history teaches. (Unless there is a revolution....)

[ryan_4z]

How would funneling all the SW 20S drivers into 20ssH hurt the class?

[Big Don]

They are already in the class, what is your question?

[ryan_4z]

Sidewinder drivers do not, by and large, race 20ss. Parity changes would give the SW and chance to compete with the 302.

[csh-2z]

I have to apologize and clarify to all of you, about some of my previous posts on the 20SSH class. While it was my intention to explain a hypothetical scenario for the class, I in no way endorsed that possibility. As far as I'm concerned, 20SSH will remain intact and untouched for the foreseeable future. I am strongly in support of offering to the owners of the Yamato 80 the chance to run in the BSH class in hopes of potentially persuading some of these drivers to eventually transition to the sidewinder and help grow this class nationwide to support this manufacturer and securing our future.

As Don so eloquently said, it is in all of our best interest to support each other and all of our motor manufacturers, we all want this sport we love to grow and succeed.

John Runne

[ryan_4z]

Man, I wish we could hug about that right now...

[ryan_4z]

And then I want to try to snake Donny's inside classic SW v. Yamato style;;;

[csh-2z]

Ryan and I did some testing on Thursday & Friday last week to test how much of a difference the three variables (height, weight, restrictor / no restrictor) make using the same prop. He hasn't downloaded the information from the Mychron to the laptop yet. However, once he has, we will analyze that data to make a proposal. The data will be in Chicago for the commission to analyze. We do want to make the 80's competitive but the clear motor of choice is the Sidewinder in this class.

One issue that comes to mind that has some on the Sidewinder side is the fact that whatever this commission does, the next commission can undo. It is because of that situation we don't have long term plans in any category in APBA. There have been numerous times in the past, where plans are made only to be reversed soon after.

Maybe there is a way to have the BOD freeze action on this type of proposal for a certain time frame of 3 - 5 years so a plan has a chance to work. I don't know, but it is something I am going to bring to the board for discussion.

[Tim Weber]

Big Don,

Those numbers are sobering when you consider that these are only 3 races per driver minimums. That can be a 3 race in one weekend deal too.

I think a big problem is travel cost. It costs me at a very minimum $500 for a weekend. That is a tent and fast food weekend. A normal weekend with gas, hotel, decent meals, entries fees is around a $1000. At a nationals you can double it easy. Fortunately, I can do this but a lot of guys can't.

What's the answer? I just don't know. Travel cost in my area is just part of it but I can see where driving 7-10 hours one way would discourage folks on a shoe string budget. I will say that races with tow money are sweet. but.... then we get into the how to promote the sport discussion with sponsorship. That dog never seems to hunt.

It seems like the sealed engine concept might need to be explored more in depth as a solid way to control costs.

Tim

[ryan_4z]

Perhaps I should drink more beers....

[ryan_4z]

pershpas I shohyuld drink ksomoe re beers.....

[ryan_4z]

does anybody have any beer??????

[dholt]

Growing all classes is certainly what we'd all like to see...but I'm not sure how adding the 80 into BSH accomplishes this as a long term solution.
Yes, it would increase boat counts, as I'm sure a handful of 80 owners would love a 2nd ride during a weekend to run BSH. And they'd be competitive.
OK...now what? Are we expecting the light to go on at some point and they'd want to drop $5k for a new SW motor and more $ for a different boat to run the BSH in the future?
If they can run it with their 80, why would they change equipment? If they aren't winning, they'd probably stop and just run 20ssH. If they are winning, they'd keep the 80 equipment.
If simply increasing boat totals in BSH is the goal...then I can see it. Full steam ahead. But isn't this the same thing as adding the restricted Yamato into 25ssR?

I asked this question days ago. What's preventing people from buying the SW right now and running BSH or BSR. Only 1 person chimed in...with COST as his answer. There are other reasons...which are probably more powerful in negating sales. Can those be discussed?

I wish there were 100 boats in BSH/BSR. What does it take to get there?

[ryan_4z]

Combine BSH/20ssH and BSR/25ssR and you will have an average of 100 boats in those classes tomorrow. I am not trying to pick on 20ss, but B and 20 occupy basically the same space here between A and C. I mean, really, do we need two classes between A and C? No way. Sure, we have other issues that are more pressing, but identifying classes is important to have a model for growth. This is an inevitable issue. The SW 20S was designed to compete with the Yamato 80 and yet we still have this 20ss class and this BS class. Get rid of the bullsh!t and let's go do some awesome racing.


New 20ss parity:

-No change to Yamatos
-SW weight goes to 380, height goes to 1/2 inch;

And let me say, I have nothing to gain here, either way. I have both SW and Yamato options for 20 that I feel good about. I wouldn't know where I stood to gain or loose if change is made. But I firmly believe we must make some changes and the same old fear and status quo won't cut it any longer.

[deeougee]

Why SW to 380 Ryan? I agree with the 1/2 inch would like to see 400 across the board for SW and Yamato. TORC allowed the Y80 this past year in BSH (they run the class at 1/2 inch, 400 unrestricted). One guy participated in B with a Y80 said he could out corner them and the SW had more chute speed. Said the SW was easier to race against as compared to the 20 racers.

[Big Don]

Here is a question for all of you. Why is it year after year we discuss this amongst the same 10/20 people. There are 360 people logged into this site right now if the number on the left is accurate. Even if it's not accurate, why do the rest of the 299 members not comment on this stuff?

I have to think a lot of the members come on this site. Or am I wrong on that?

You would think anytime a topic on their class gets discussed they would share their thoughts. I know not everyone is comfortable and some peoples feelings get hurt but if I saw something about my class I would certainly share my thoughts.

Oh, and we are never gong to do this stuff Ryan is rambling about. I get his point and what he is trying to accomplish. He understands if we keep doing the same old thing, he's not going to have a sport to race in. He's right in the fact that we do need to make some hard decisions. Yes, I disagree with him on this one right now. But we do need to have some crazy thoughts if we want to change/fix things. It's just hard to swallow messing with 20 right now.

Heck, I can't figure out if we should have side fins in BSR because I don't want to upset the 10 drivers the class has... Or get rid of 25H because it's dead but maybe the 20 Sidewinder unrestricted could have a home there?

[dholt]

I'll counter with this.
Keep the class with over 100 boats for the past 15 years as is (20ssH) where you can buy a reliable, cost effective motor (321/302). Parity not possible with 2 different engine mfg. We all know that. Re-name it BSH.

Scratch 20SW in hydro.

Scratch 25ssR.

Keep 20 SW BSR. Open it up to side fins.

Create a sealed/spec runabout class with the SW 20. Same concept/rules as the 300ssH class.

Now, you've got:

ASH/ASR
BSH/BSR
Spec Hydro (Yamato)
Spec Runabout (Sidewinder)
CSH/CSR
DSH

PLENTY of opportunity to sell motors/attract drivers to speed ranges/drivers of all sizes.

No conflicts with parity. Each class has it's own Mfg. New equipment everywhere.

[squirrelboydeluxe]

What would happen if we kissed all the restrictors goodbye?

[ryan_4z]

Well, Mike,

I would rather race one class four times a day versus two classes two times a day. Gives me a better chance at success through consistency and eliminates variable factors.

[deeougee]

I wonder what people would do if OSY 400 was on the program? I can almost guess. TORC ran both C and OSY 400 and this year there was a huge drop off in 20 SSH entries, only 4-5 boats max at each race while OSY numbers went way up. Tells me most people don't want to restrict/retune their ride for 20.

[Ram4x4]

Been there, tried that, didn't like it. Now I just run my C boat in 500 and have a better chance at being competitive. In all fairness, the 102 with a restrictor isn't known for being all that great in 20, and I do not have the right prop to run on the restricted 20 to get it to go very well, but even if I did, I'd most likely still not be particularly competitive. So, in my personal case, it's partial laziness because it's a lot less work to just plop the C boat back in the water and go run with the 500 guys than tinkering with a restrictor, adjustments and finding a prop that works with that combination 9and then retweak the settings back for C).

[csh-2z]

This post from earlier, ended up in the wrong post comment.
Ryan and I did some testing on Thursday & Friday last week to test how much of a difference the three variables (height, weight, restrictor / no restrictor) make using the same prop. He hasn't downloaded the information from the Mychron to the laptop yet. However, once he has, we will analyze that data to make a proposal. The data will be in Chicago for the commission to analyze. We do want to make the 80's competitive but the clear motor of choice is the Sidewinder in this class.

One issue that comes to mind that has some on the Sidewinder side is the fact that whatever this commission does, the next commission can undo. It is because of that situation we don't have long term plans in any category in APBA. There have been numerous times in the past, where plans are made only to be reversed soon after.

Maybe there is a way to have the BOD freeze action on this type of proposal for a certain time frame of 3 - 5 years so a plan has a chance to work. I don't know, but it is something I am going to bring to the board for discussion.

[ryan_4z]

Maybe this starts with the BOD not fast-lining all the latest rule changes through before the season. Or change the stupid date of the national meeting.