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**Howie Nichols** · 10-20-2015, 10:01 AM

Howard,
I'm not sure where you have gotten your information and why you have become so bitter towards APBA and anyone who attempts to support them? I tried to keep my post / response clean and avoid any finger pointing / name calling, it serves none of us any good. The statement that I gave is not BS, you asked questions I gave you answers. Please let me know what facts were left out, I have made and do make mistakes and could have mis-spoken but I don't see where after re-reading what I wrote. I do not drink Koolaid, not even close. I have both agreed with and heartily disagreed with things that this President and past presidents have done. Call them and ask them or anyone else that has sat in on one of those meetings. While I call them out I do however make every effort to do so in a courteous manner, it gets better results.

As for the increases - The Insurance Committee met and came with suggestions to the BoD. The BoD looked at the suggestions and after much discussions decided on what we are now talking about. It was motioned and voted to revert back to the 2013 rates, this vote was unanimous. It was motioned and voted on to increase the membership dues for 2016 - that was 9-2. Please before you begin posting half truths and jump on a bandwagon check and double check your facts, whoever is providing you with them has lead you down a path.

I'm in no way saying we don't need change and need it in a big way. We are a diverse group with multiple category interests. If you have any legitimate or serious ideas on what can be done as an organizational whole please let us know. The worst thing to do is bash away, then when you have a great idea it is not listened to. We have new younger blood on the BoD beginning Nov 1. Knowing what I do about the newly elected they have no issue arguing for what they feel is in the best interest of the sport, not just themselves.

The other organizations are happy with what they have and what they are doing, that's great. I have reached out and not received so much as a go to hell reply back.

John,
Yes, the BoD has looked at other Insurance, nothing is comparable with what we need at this point. As you know we have an Insurance Committee that does alot of leg work with the Insurance factors. I am not on that committee and can not honestly answer your questions today. I can talk to the Insurance Committee (and so can any member of the Assoc.) and see what I can learn. So I apologize for not knowing at this point.

**daveracerdsh** · 10-20-2015, 05:15 PM

Are people aware that Ric Sanstrom worked out the insurance details for APBA this year? We all owe him a dept of graditude.....somebody correct me if I am wrong with that. Dave

**bill van steenwyk** · 10-20-2015, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Tim Weber View Post

I guess USTS and NBRA's manure doesn't stink. The two groups are trouble free and all a panacea. It seems we have to many Bernie Sanders supporters.

What a bunch of crap!

The bottom line is we are all passionate about the sport. There is no need to debate which group is better. Keep this in mind. APBA is the mother ship and always will be. It is the UIM affiliate and the only US sanctioning body that represents us on an international level.

The alky classes have taken their toys and don't want to play in our sandbox anymore. If those folks are happy with their club then great.
But.... the National Championship at Depue is really a big club race and IMO not a true championship. I heard that 125 hydro was the largest class with 14 boats at Depue. Wow! A few years ago there were over 20, 250 hydros and over 30 OSY rigs. We even had elims in both C-service classes.

Am I missing something? Strength is in numbers. The Indy cars folks figured it out and almost too late. That series still hasn't fully recovered.

But in the end, I just drive fast, little, race boats and want to compete with the best. A politician I am not.

Tim

Tim:

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and think you either did not, or have not, read and understood the link I furnished in my post #42. I want to be very specific as I cannot believe you would make the statement, 'What a bunch of crap", along with in the same post, "APBA is the mother ship and always will be" along with "It us the UIM affiliate and the only USA Sanctioning body that represents us on an International level".

Eagle Picher (owner of MIss Nickel Eagle) spent almost 3000.00 in sanction fees, rental of the timing equipment, fees to UIM, and paid the expenses of all the officials that were there and ran off and officiated at this event. In addition over 100K was spent on the equipment that ran the event.That was real money, even at the time. The reason they spent the extra money for UIM was so they would have a truly International event and recognition on a World level.

IF you read my link you will realize I spent 10 years, WITH ALL PAPER WORK IN ORDER, to get this approved as the chief APBA official/referee at the event.
It was only after I contacted Stan Fitts 10 years later, and he confirmed that everything was and had been in order, that the record for the 1/4 Mile Drag course was approved.

So as you state. if APBA is the mother ship and always will be (in big doubt these days) they certainly did not act like it in this event. In fact their ship sunk quickly after the event. If now you think that APBA is perfect and always handles everything in good order, it says more about you than even them.

As to whether the USTS Natonals is a true National Championship, I will let those that competed there make a judgement regards that. It is very true that Boat Racing numbers in all classes has regressed the last several years, for numerous reasons, BUT I am sure any competitor who made the USTS Nats would agree that when you have the MAJORITY of the possible competition at one venue, that is a true test. In fact, I would go so far as to say that USTS IS PRO Racing in the US, at the present time, just on numbers alone.

**raceright** · 10-21-2015, 04:12 AM

USTS is a stand alone Alky,PRO racing organization. There are no other categories involved. If you wish to stretch it K pro and OSY are also ran but as USTS classes. Bore and Stroke is how classes are determined.
We travel all up and down the east coast as well as into the Midwest from New York to race with the best the PROs have to offer. Of course there are other racers from other parts of the country of this caliber but long travel hampers this.
Jamie Nilsen to his credit proved that from time to time a racer with great ability can show up and compete, we at the USTS accept his complement of traveling to our races and competing at this level.
The days of 40 boats in any given class is over and will never return in my life time. I remember starting 16 350 hydros at a Florida APBA nationals back in the 80s. Also ran at Alex APBA nationals with over 40 entries in 500 Hydro. Those numbers could support a large APBA,these numbers are no more and unless APBA understands this and wishes to remain the once desired racing Organization it once was Smaller leaner Boat racing groups will be the future.

**Tim Weber** · 10-21-2015, 05:48 AM

Bill,

You missed my point. I'm not defending APBA but trying to convey that all the clubs have issues.

Folks talk about how great NBRA is. I am sure it is but I can't play with them. They don't run my classes. USTS puts on a great show but only 5 per year.

A few years ago we had a winter nationals at Alexandria LA. The race was stock and mod. What was real neat was AOF, NBRA and APBA worked together to put on the race. Ed Hearn even drew up some sort of lawerly declaration he read at the drivers meeting. He may even have it still.
Anyways, it was a great race and in my mind showed that working together is the way to go.

I told you I wasn't a politician.

Tim

**HRTV** · 10-21-2015, 06:35 AM

Its funny that even though I no longer own this web site its the same old post and topics from back when I started the site in December of 2002 :-)

Have fun guys :-)

**Big Don** · 10-21-2015, 07:40 AM

Dan that is funny, when I first read this thread the other day I had to go back to the first post to see if someone started an old thread. Same players, different year.

I drink boat racing Kool Aid if anyone cares and am thankful we live in a country that gives us the ability to do this. I'm thankful we are able to have multiple organizations to fit everyone's needs. Everyone races in the one that fits their need/s.

We are hugely different organizations and trying to compare them is just ridiculous in my opinion.

Do I understand some of the peoples bitterness towards APBA, sure I do, but to keep trying to make them look bad, talk bad about each other, keep bringing stuff up from 25 years ago is just silly. We all have stories about how I got screwed while racing under APBA, but guess what, that's life and there are always 2 sides to every story, then there is probably a third with the truth somewhere in-between.

But in my opinion if you are trashing any organization you truly don't have boat racing at heart. We are all one in the end.

**Al Peffley** · 10-23-2015, 09:18 AM

My last race in APBA was at the Lake Lawrence Records Regatta last month. The driving experience reminded me of working at a major aerospace firm and having an executive do something illegal -- everyone in the company would be required to go through training even though they had no authority position in the company to perform the offending function that caused a huge monetary fine impact for the company. I am giving this work example because the 1-mile course at Lake Lawrence was altered to cater to the most recent inboard accident. The course shore edge-to-outer markers insurance rule of 200 feet created an unnatural line of outer markers because the lake water was low this year (I think that was how the course alteration was explained to us at the drivers' meeting.) The rule forced a narrow first turn exit in the course configuration that had never been there before, and a slight right turn to navigate the rear straightaway to make the next turn pin (turn 2). Most of the lakes we boat race on out here in the Northwest are not that large, so the enforced insurance rule will greatly restrict course lengths and shapes. One or two inboard accidents and everyone in APBA pays the price in both money and weird driving restrictions.

I finally decided I just can't afford this sport any more. We also have also lost the ability to test or break in a rebuilt PRO motor before a race weekend out here; the ambulance emergency crew support for testing has gone away in our region mostly due (I assume) to the higher costs of conducting an event (the safest way to test alky PRO class boats, in my opinion.) Sad, but true.

My best regards to all of you. Thanks for the all of the racing memories during 22 years of PRO and stock/mod outboard hydroplane racing. It's been a great ride that I will never forget. I am blessed to have participated with many race opportunities and only a few accidents along the way. Drive safe.

Cheers,
Al (PRO #25, Region 10)

**diamondprohydro** · 10-24-2015, 12:51 PM

Al,

There are a couple of discrepancies in your comments. I do not intend to start a "word war" but will simply comment on Lake Lawrence, a race I have chaired for many years now. To put this race on means getting started right after the first of the year on permitting then culminates with a race where the committee is made up of a "ton" of people to pull it all off and make a great race for those out racing for records, points or just fun.

Yes, there was no ambulance there Friday for testing. Not because of cost, but an error on Olympic Ambulance who had my signed contract since April. My bad for not making sure they would show up this year as they have for as many years as I can remember. We were fortunate to have David Dodge, our safety crew, obtain AMR for Sat. and Sunday. They did an awesome job including attending to you when you had the medical situation. They will become our choice.

The Lake Lawrence course this year, one mile, was the approved, surveyed mile course that Russ, Carol and myself put in the week before and then ran an as-built on it to verify it was accurate. Russ mistakenly thought we were putting in the 1 1/4 mi course. We discovered it and since testing was a bust because the ambulance did not show up, it did not hurt anything. The next morning, bright and early it was changed to the proper course. It was then monitored throughout the weekend by Russ and Carol. Russ is a proffessional land surveyor and the APBA Chief Surveyor. We are so lucky to have them. He then certifies it in the end for Lisa Peterson to attach to the records set.

During obtaining the Insurance for the Sanction I was ask to show by drawing and measurement how far the outside course markers were from the shore or docks. This was done. Because the water was low this year with a few areas of weeds and mud extending out farther than usual AND to make sure the insurance company was satisfied with outside markers, they were placed tighter than in the past. This had nothing to do with the inside course but did not let those that wanted to drift way outside do so. There were no complaints. It was not exotic, just a bit tighter.

Thanks for participating at SOA races for all these years.

Bill Diamond

**bill van steenwyk** · 10-24-2015, 03:01 PM

Howie:

Regards your comment about insurance rates being set on the accident rate of that category:

Yes, I do think that each individual category should bear the risk of THEIR accident record. If this make ANY category higher than any other, so be it. That is how insurance should be rated. If you have a certain type vehicle and your accident rate is higher, then you should pay a higher rate. Conversely if your category's accident rate goes down after 2 years or so, your rate should reflect that. That is the way insurance should work. The liability portion is a different matter. I do not think that Stock, Mod, and Pro should be in the same category for insurance purposes. There are many other things to take into consideration if you really think about it, age of the participant is just one for example. But to lump all together as it is now, just because all members race BOATS, is a way to artificially raise rates on everyone when the risk is NOT the same. Just wonder if anyone with APBA has thought of this.

Tim Weber:

When USTS first started, one of the questions asked of members in a questionaire, taking number of miles traveled to races, expense of running PRO equipment, and other requirements, was how many races can you comfortably run in a season and how many miles would you be willing to travel for those races. Also when USTS first started, the motors were not as dependable and required more mandatory maintenance, consequently money. Taht does not seem to be as much of an issue now, but you cannot stop folks from spending more to try to go faster. Just the way it works in the PRO's.

The answer was 5-7 races and 850 or so miles, do not remember the exact number of miles now, but that is close. Also you might want to remember that USTS has a requirement that the program shall not run over a certain length of time,( they limit the number of classes to achieve this). That is to keep it 3-4 hours long daily and the spectators interested. In addition the number of classes was specified, although I am not sure whether that still is true.

With these things set in place to satisfy the membership of USTS, it looks like that is what they want and get out of USTS PRO Racing.

Big Don:

I seem to remember a couple of years ago when all the controversy was taking place regards the new (at the time) APBA web site, one of the bones of contention was the actual cost of same being paid to a member of the Hearn family. There were many calls for information on that program, (cost) not least of all by me. When I got hold of a copy of same by requesting it from the APBA Treasurer at the time, I furnished you with a copy of the financials of APBA that spelled that out, IN DETAIL. I do not remember you sharing it with anyone else, at least not publicly.

My point in relating what happened to the Electric Boat project some 30+ years ago now, was to inform about my first experience with the APBA office and their shortcomings. As mentioned I had about a half dozen other examples to relate since then, but space and time prohibited that on that one post. Since your attitude seems to be, OK they screwed up, but that was 30+ years ago and what is the use in bringing it up at this time, I won't bore you with the other half dozen instances of whatever you wish to call their incompetence, and would bring us to the present time. The money spent on the Web site (lots and lot of it) is just one recent example.

It does seem to be that the more vocal of the membership does not want them brought up again, but I wonder why. Is it because nothing is ever done to fix them?? In fact, I am done with this subject for good, and I hope that satisfies all you folks who are tired of hearing the same thing over and over again. Just another good reason to stop beating my head against a stone wall.

Just remember one thing said by someone much smarter and wiser than I. "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it", or something similar. In APBA's case it just goes on and on. Maybe some new blood would help, or even older retired members who have learned from their mistakes.

You call it trashing, I call it reminding, so as not to forget again. Either way, it does not seem to work, and the membership pays and pays and pays for it.

**Big Don** · 10-25-2015, 06:58 AM

Bill, you did share the financials with me. Not sure how that is relevant to any of this. I still support the initiative to get us updated digitally. I think we pulled the plug to quick on that project. That does not mean I agree with everything APBA did, does, or will do. As a matter of fact I agreed that we were probably 10 years late on that project.

I don't agree with all of APBA sharing in the cost of the insurance increase. But when I think about the 10.00 or whatever the dues will go up on our membership, my thought is this, "it's 10.00, that 10.00 wouldn't get me an hour away from my house on a race weekend in gas. It's not going to kill me."

I know many will say it's not the 10.00, that is the issue. It's the fact that we are all paying for others mistakes. I agree, and this is why I don't agree with the decision, but will support it because it's our organization and know we all won't agree on everything.

You and I did agree on many things a few years back. But my point was, if I focused on the bad things it would eat me alive.

**pav225** · 10-25-2015, 06:16 PM

This is dumb.

Everyone quit typing and go do something productive...

**Nilsen Racing** · 10-25-2015, 07:11 PM

Agree Mike...thanks for some common sense. Great seeing you & Mikey out west at D-Lake, along with the Olson family & Tom Smith, & looking forward to seeing you at the National meeting + possibly out west again next year??? Other than the small group of naysayers (can only speak for our region & regarding the naysayers, they get old), we had a great year.
Take care. Jim

**Smitty** · 10-26-2015, 06:17 PM

The discussion/ argument is a good thing if something useful can come of it, . . . but meanwhile, here Al Peffley has just told us that he is having to hang it up after 22 years as a racer, and nobody has said, "Really sorry to see you go, Al; good luck in the future, hope to see you as a spectator!!" Pretty poor on our part.

On keeping things in perspective, a couple of pages back I tried to illustrate a point with this:

(Quoting myself) "Different people can look at the same thing or the same idea and interpret it differently. Two guys go into a corner, later one of them says the other sawed him off, while the other is equally sure he had the overlap. The turn-judge, if he saw the incident at all, saw it from a third angle, and has to make a judgement even though his view might not have been ideal, either. What I'm saying is, whatever your position on what's under discussion here, cut your opponents some slack . . . " (end Quote)

Actually, I was part of that incident . . . and I'll always think our referee of the day, Al Greathouse, had his head where the sun don't shine when he DQed me, LOL. If I were to run into Al today, I'd needle him about it before offering him a beer.

But I can't. Al Greathouse, Seattle Outboard runabout driver and one of the good old boys, died not long ago.

Keeps things in perspective, doesn't it?

**Al Peffley** · 10-26-2015, 11:49 PM

I was not slamming the race committee nor the race director for Lake Lawrence about the failure of the ambulance crew to be there for testing on Friday. I was merely stating a fact that almost all APBA races conducted now in Region 10 don't provide a place in the schedule any more for a PRO equipment testing/break-in period (for whatever the reason is -- I assumed it was primarily money, or maybe it also could be influenced by morning or evening noise concerns.) We had testing periods before boat race events in the past when I first started boat racing.

You had no control over the ambulance failure to show up, Bill, so it was just something unfortunate that happened this year. The fact that the lake was low is also not something a club can change, but only adapt to as conditions warrant. The fact that an inboard accident occurred at Lawrence not that many years ago may also have made the course setup a little more creative, conservative and tight, with understandable concerns. Good places to boat race are getting harder to find around the Pacific Northwest and many other locations in the US -- it's just the way it is. Lake Cullaby was my favorite place to compete in my last ten seasons of boat racing; I will miss the race there the most. Suddenly I have all of this race equipment and special tools to divest of...

Thank you Smitty for the thoughtful concern about me. In hindsight, I guess it was a mistake for me to post a comment here about my perception of insurance rules and cost impacts. I could see the insurance compliance issues coming years ago when I was a Risk Manager at the local Cullaby Lake regatta and filled out the required insurance information paperwork. I have noted all insurance requirements and coverage limitations are getting more complex and costly for higher deductible fees (house, car, health, special event liability coverage for churches & charities, etc.)

And yes, I am very grateful for the AMR EMT response team's vigilant and professional care for me when I had a unexpected, full-blown heart attack between 350ccH heats on Saturday. Jan and others from SOA gave me special support during my episode in the pits -- thank you Jan and good friends who cared for me and Bonnie. God saved me for another day. Other racers have not been so fortunate to be close to medical help at a race when the unexpected happens. I will miss boat racing, but its time for me to retire and let younger guys and gals drive to get the checkered flag.

Have fun, and drive it "like you stole it" (LOL)!

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