APBA elections a sad day for APBA

[bmitch1]

Apathy manifests for many reasons - which also includes lack of interest or concern. So, we've surmised from this thread that the OP was concerned that only 14% of the membership voted which may mean that the remaining membership did not see a problem to address, and/or that they believed change was not likely (and noone in this forum knows the real reason on this point anyway). But I don't believe the origin of this thread is really about the 14%....because the original post was later edited on 10/10/15 to add concerns about insurance costs and membership dues.

A question was asked of the OP on 10/10 about the basis for his new information (see post #18). Simply grandstanding about perceived problems is a barbershop conversation. Don't just tell me about the problem - inform me about the issue AND tell me what you're going to do to improve or fix it. And, don't just defer to generalized statements ("We need to reduce membership fees!"), because while I would agree that I'd like to spend my money on other aspects, most voting members will also want to feel confident that you have a realistic plan to approach this. If the membership-at-large believes in your solution you'll see growing support for making a change. Too often it's easy to criticize direction without understanding the background, finances or other details around the execution of a decision.

Don't be disappointed if your peers don't see the same level of urgency because perspective makes all the difference. You wanna know how much my kids other extracurricular (e.g. school sports) events are going to cost this year?? Boat racing is still a remarkably affordable family sport and I feel a good value for my expense. Unlike certain coach-led sports I can be responsible for my own success in racing. Worst part of youth team sports is the entire population of vocal parents who regularly discuss how the coach is "isn't playing my kid enough" or how they're "doing it wrong", but these same folks aren't stepping up to coach or even assist.

I'll be very interested to see what names pop up on the APBA ballot next year - along with information posted on HR or APBA Social about the respective platform for the candidate, what opportunities they see to advance/improve the sport, and how they'll address concerns of the membership. People like to be inspired...not intimidated.

re: Post #27, Harry Truman also said "It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit."

[Brian10s]

Well said Brian. Nicely done!!!

[Smitty]

(Sigh) I'll try this once more. Probably the same waste of time as before. People are saying, well if you don't like APBA, since YOU HATE APBA, therefore you should run for office, and you should offer solutions and not just COMPLAIN ALL THE TIME.

Really? Run for office when I can't get anyone to say a word, pro or con, on the idea, the possible partial SOLUTION, that I offered here, Page 1. Is it a good idea, is it stupid, is it at all a workable attempt at a partial SOLUTION?? Not a word.

Well??

(Incidently, sorry about having to use caps; for some reason the site is not reproducing quotation marks for me. I don't mean to yell . . . oh well, maybe I do a little, LOL)

I asked about whether any sort of initiative process exists for APBA members, or if not, would such a thing be desirable. No response whatever.

Well??

I can't get any response on the question, the QUESTION (yelling), NOT opinion, NOT criticism, that I asked relating to Howard's added comments about insurance, about previous assertions by outboarders (I don't recall whom) that they feel they are subsidizing other categories. I have asked about this one time previously (not ALL THE TIME), and got no comment on it then either except for, as this time, a question about my supposed motives in asking this question. Well, this time I did get one strange response, grumbling about unnamed people promoting socialistic soak-the-rich solutions. Should that be taken to mean that the rich (Inboarders, I'm guessing) ARE in effect being subsidized, but that to change this would be un-American class warfare? Or that the idea that anybody is subsidizing anybody else's expenses is untrue?

Well??

Finally, as I said on the one previous occasion (out of many such we've seen here) when somebody was unhappy about the current APBA management of insurance and some other things, I ASKED if NBRA/USTS offers a better, or any, alternative. Oh boy, does that ever set some people off!! The APBA defenders (motto: My organization right or wrong), didn't/don't even try to make their case but instead resort to personal attacks (you HATE APBA).

I don't get it. For starters, the APBA defenders have at least one obvious response immediately available, which is that NBRA and USTS so far seem to have little interest in running combined events (which wouldn't have to be part of their points series) with locally-selected Stock, Mod, and PRO classes The upshot is that those two organizations are effectively writing off the West Coast, or at least Reg. 10, because combined races are traditional and the preferred way of doing it out here. Seems like if the NBRA were interested in being truly National, and if the USTS wanted to be truly a United States series, they would try harder to get races on the left coast, but . . . .

Now on the two occasions I have asked what about NBRA/USTS as a possible (depending on them working together) as a possible alternative, I have said that I have no axe to grind either way. All right, I DO think it would be a desirable thing to have this as an alternative (which really gets the defenders of the status quo all hacked off). But I DO NOT care which organization ultimately prevails. Basically, as someone who was never anything but a local Region 10 racer long ago (I went to one Nationals . . . National Outboard Assn., 1968), I just want to see Seattle Outboard and the other local guys getting the best deal they can, with whichever outfit. That's why I say I have no axe to grind. And I don't hate anybody, least of all APBA. Look, I grew up in Seattle in the days of the Slo Mos and the Inboard and Outboard races on Greenlake, all APBA events, as I had been aware since I was eight years old. So when in 1965, at age 19 and having just finished building my Hal Kelly Jupiter and bought a converted 20H, when my American Power Boat Association card arrived in the mail I thought I had really gotten into the in-crowd!!


But things change (do they ever!) over fifty years. Now I suppose this will provoke yet another round of anger and personal attack instead of calm agreement or calm rejection, but my perception, in reading a lot of satisfied and even enthusiastic commentary from both USTS and NBRA members, is that those seem to be the more progressive organizations at the moment. At the same time, there seems not to be anything like that same enthusiasm about APBA, and instead much unhappiness (though by no means universal) has been expressed about aspects beyond just insurance. With APBA's defenders, the emotion seems to be defensiveness, rather than positive enthusiasm. Which is too bad, and though it's impossible to make everybody happy all the time, let's hope for better days ahead.

Become an activist? Are you kidding? MY ideas seem not to ever be of interest to anyone here. I had what I thought were two good ideas (and still think so), one for a way to promote public and sponsor interest (a project in which I would have taken a big part), and one for helping find new race-sites. I not only posted the ideas here, but also sent them as lengthy PMs to individuals who were specifically interested in these areas. I never got one response from anybody.


Well?? Clue us in on this stuff, not just for me (since it doesn't matter at all whether I know anything) but because probably a lot of others (thank you, Bill Van Steenwyk) would like to see some reasoned discussion on these matters. If the NBRA/USTS or the insurance stuff gets you hot, forget that, I'm not trying to pick fights; what about the other ideas/questions? Joe, Wayne, you guys have forgotten more about all this stuff than I'll ever know, and surely can give some good feedback, pro or con.

(EDIT) Some of you asked Howard Shaw to provide sources or data on his assertions. I don't think he gets on this site very often, so it might be that he hasn't seen that. I put in a PM to him a few days ago, and I don't think he has seen that, either.

[joejohn44]

I will answer your Q, Smitty. I think it is a good idea. I grew up in APBA and left because of the direction it was going, and because of the feeling that the grass roots racer was being ignored and pushed out. I now race NBRA and back to having fun. One thing I have noticed? NBRA is like a touring series. USTS, as well. The entire organization goes to every race, for the most part, and we know each person very very well. APBA is fractured because of geographic groups, or clicks. You can race in the NW for lifetime and never actually meet or even speak to another avid racer from the NE that you hear about. Heck, the 2 of you could be in a fierce battle for points and NEVER meet!! Happens all the time. So, YES. I think your idea was a good one. Joe John Schulte

[Howie Nichols]

To answer some questions, but first I will preface it with a statement. I can not fully discuss all the on going issues nor should anyone else. With an on going investigation and case anything and everything said whether in an open forum like this or at a BoD meeting is considered public information and therefore the attorneys may use it and call you to the court room in the event it goes that route.

With that said, APBA is anticipating and insurance increase for the upcoming year and as such the increase is passed on to the conducting clubs and event promoters. We have not received the full renewal to date and only have speculation on part of our agent as to the projected increase. With that the BoD has chosen to find ways of making up the difference. Yes we will have insurance rate increases and yes it was discussed to increase member dues. The current BoD members along with the newly elected BoD, the council members, the category chairman, and the region chairman were all invited to this call. It was decided that the upcoming cost increase be shared amongst all the members (this is only a portion of the overall amount needed to make up the difference), and not penalize an entire category for an incident that occurred. Example: The feeling is such that if you have Progressive Auto Insurance and I get into an accident that everyone who has Progressive should not be penalized by an extreme increase but instead they just hike everyone's rate slightly, so that is why the annual dues increase was chosen instead of taking the $ from a promotional fund (which would have to occur for multiple years).

Hope this makes sense like it or not.

As a current BoD member we do listen and see what is going on. Some things are beyond our control and we have to figure out the best options, it is not always done but we certainly try. Not one BoD member has an axe to grind and in fact we are all officials, drivers, or crew members of race teams who volunteer our time to do this. We realize people have different opinions of how things should be done which is how and why other organizations are formed. I hope that into the future some of the bashing which has been done would back off some and offer input. Just because we don't post often doesn't mean we are not looking and hearing.

I will ask about looking into an online voting option, it is a good thought. Some things may factor in though, like cost, logistics of setting up the secure site (I don't know how theses are done myself) and then as all voting it must be verified by an outside agency (how we do it now) to ensure the counting of ballots is accurate.

I truly wish with our decline in numbers across all organizations we could get back together align the rules by give and take from both sides and become 1 large happy organization again. I know its a long shot but somethings need to be looked at / considered instead of the current state all of us are in.

Nominations are typically opened in June, so if you think you have the answers, or wish to be on the BoD or council then watch for some meeting notices to appear and listen in, then take that back and politic your platform ahead of time.

One last note - the BoD began an informal "think tank" monthly get together so we could stay on top of things as the arise. This began in Feb or March of this year. When a hot item comes to light a formal meeting is convened to act upon it so they proper membership notification of the meeting can occur. These think tank meets have been extremely helpful and often lengthy on how to "fix" issues that are on the forefront.

Hope this helps to a certain degree...

[1hshawwpba]

Howie your drinking the Wheeler cool aid and there are items in your post that paint a different picture than what is really happening on this issue. You do state some facts:
1. the vote to pass the cost on to all was not 100% agreement by the BOD
2. Membership continues to decline (and the brain trust you voted with on this can't figure out why???) keep raising the cost to pay for non compliance and supporting the team I am sure that a flood of members is just around the corner!
3 The BOD does not listen to the majority and everything is in their control if they only have the guts to act and put the responsibility on the shoulders of the category that are causing the expenses to clime due to negligence of following APBA rules.
4. Don't cover up this insurance issue on why it went up and let the members know who voted to have ALL members and clubs get increased cost after all if they were proud to vote yes to the increases they should be proud to let the members know who they are--- or will they continue to hide and not be exposed?????








Really Howie you expect people to believe this post of BS you have written enjoy the cool aid and watch the membership continue to decline due to great work you and some of BOD are doing !!Remember this was not a 100% agreement of the BOD to expense the cost to all be honest if that is possible and remain in the fold with Wheeler and the team!
Mean while thanks for supporting the increase cost to all on this and the additional membership cost! I am sure the majority of APBA members are very proud of the latest actions of those who voted for this resolve to the issues!

[raceright]

Seems the age old problems of APBA have not changed in the 40 years that I can remember. They are not in good financial position and when they spend on promotion they get very poor results. If however they came up with good promotion then expenses like insurance would be something the membership would not have to bare.
But after many years of spinning my wheels as a commissioner I finally realized that it is not APBA job to find money that's why they suck at it. So when decisions were made to pursue this avenue they were the wrong decisions.
Money for boat racing is very hard to come by I know trust me. Over the years I have found some and will continue to do so but only luck and my own finances is how I have to do it.
USTS has been able to find money to some it sounds like a lot but it is not enough to share but only with the USTS membership. Time for finding money while appreciated, is limited by volunteers and APBA is a volunteer group driven by membership desires.

[Bob Rusnak]

You need to have a 3-4 hour program to attract spectators and don't bore them. You also need a full field of boats in a class. The 3-4 boat race will not make it.

[Ram4x4]

This is primarily a "participation" sport. If money is a concern, then we need more members in APBA to bring in more money. I think a spectator following would be nice, but the concern is to get more members in and racing. The question is, how?

A web presence or a Facebook page is nice, but that's not going to draw people in. Racer School and showing the boats is what needs to be done. Let people see us, but also let them know that "hey, you can drive this boat...here's how". Also, maybe consider having a driver's school on a non-race weekend (it's easier for folks to come out for it on Saturday or Sunday vs a Friday).

Get the boats out to a local mall, or some other event. Has anyone put their boats in a parade? Many small towns have various festivals and parades.

Some have mentioned local TV stations covering an event, but we need to let people know ahead of time there's a race at their local lake coming up.

If spectator interest in a concern, one thing that needs to happen is some sort of "education" of the public so they know what they're looking at. A race program they can read while watching that explains the classes. I know there is a PA system at most events, but it seems it's primarily geared toward the race teams. Need some sort of announcer(s) ala Wide World of Sports and have a driver sitting with them and they can talk about the classes and the drivers, etc.

Make sure spectators know they can come into the pits.

I understand that setting up a racer school for a club is costly...need at least two boats, a J and a C, motors, a trailer, gear, etc. Maybe the builders out there could volunteer their skills to build racer school boats if the clubs can pony up the wood, glue, hardware, etc.

What can clubs do to raise some funds to buy gear for the racer school? What, if any, support does APBA provide to clubs to start up a racer school?

[daveracerdsh]

I do not pretend to have a whole lot of business sense....there are people in SOA and in APBA that I could learn a whole lot from business wise. However....It sure looks like it to me that we are way to "top heavy" in regards to managment. How many BOD, Council at large, catagory commisioners do we need to run an organization that has maybe a thousand active racers? Some of us go to the national meeting every year thinking that maybe THIS year things will be different. No chance. We go to the commission meetings and talk about meaningless things that for the most part have no bearing on the future direction of the sport....we talk about little minor rule changes that very few people care about and that could be changed at the next national meeting. Do we spend time tackling major issues? No. We may give lip service to it...but we don't honestly spend any time on it. Maybe if APBA is going to become relevent in the national motor sports scene we need to take some drastic steps. First off....make voting in elections a requirement for holding an APBA card. Do it online... Second...eliminate commission meetings...aside from 1/2 day meeting to hammer out individual catagory concerns. Inboard, Stock, Mod, Pro etc do not exist in a vacuum....we need to work together to get crap done. 3rd? Eliminate the BOD and the Council at large etc...have one small BOD (maybe 4 members) dictate rules etc. 4th? Have each catagory elect 3 or 4 commissioners from across the country total...do we really need for example 15 stock commissioners to dictate rule changes etc for 300 stock racers? Really? Same for the other catagories. Slim things down...make it more managable. Before I started racing stock outboard "full time" so to speak, I was a part of a semi-professional racing group called Nastar. We contracted with ski areas to set up a race course, had a racer come in (such as myself) and set a time to beat for average skiers to come and try their hand at racing. It was a roaring success for a few years...but pretty soon more people wanted a say in things...and it all came crashing down in the course of a few years. While not a direct analogy to what is happening with APBA now....it is pretty close in my mind.

[Harold8]

What's the saying, "Too many cooks spoil the broth."

[csh-2z]

Howie, Insurance rates are going up again. Has the BoD taken bids from various Insurance companies? Who negotiates on behalf of APBA with our provider? It would seem to me that negotiating insurance rates for an organization such as this should be done at least a year prior to the year of implementation. Do we not have options? Or do we just stick with what we have because that's the way it's always been done?

[ryan_4z]

The other outboard racing organization does not seem to have a problem in finding funds for racing. This last season every race paid a considerable amount of tow money ($7,000-$9,000 per race weekend). Most of these sponsors are requesting the racers come back next season. Seems that they are happy so something is going right. The old way of doing business is out- Don't have to pay to use a race site but get paid to do so. Seems like a great way of doing business that is working well. jack

This is the answer to all your problems. Create a situation were money comes in instead of going out and everyone will be happy. The races are what needs fixing. Not the organization.

[1hshawwpba]

I certainly feel as a 40+ year member of APBA, plus numerous awards won as a Driver I will not mentioned so as not to be accused of tooting my own horn, I have EVERY right to criticize APBA for all the mistakes and errors they have made over the years. Maybe some do not like to hear them so when you see my name on a post just pass it by.

There is an old saying and it goes like this...
"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it", or something similar.

I also remember another famous man whose name was Truman and a sign on his desk read "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen".

Perhaps if APBA would use one of their greatest UNUSED resources, some who have seen the mistakes made over the years (and the results which are still with us today) THE FORMER MEMBERS, who do not have a trailer to protect, or axe to grind, things would get better and membership would not be declining with no end in site. Unfortunately in addition to being blind, they are deaf there also.

And one final suggestion to JSILVESTRI/DiGiarD54..... If I or anyone like me upsets you that much, when you see our name on a post, JUST DON"T READ IT, cause the only thing that will shut me up about this subject is when I am horizontal.


And Smitty and Howard Shaw., keep right on keepin on.

Bill you are one of many that are frustrated, most have given up trying to make change in this organization as you say they are blind and deaf to any ideas or people that challenge their actions.
The current leadership is an example of insanity--- Do the same thing over and over and expect different results!
Those who are sitting back reading the info need to let the leaders know they are mad as hell and will not accept it anymore and flood them with emails!
I can advise of 1 thing don't waste your $ going to the National Meeting to voice your issues, all the meetings are just a review of what the leadership team decided prior to the meeting thru emails and inside agreements.
Spend the money on a new prop it will do more good than spending 4 days in Chicago although there is one fact that will be happening--
The wind blowing out side will be matched only by the wind coming from the room the commission meeting are being held in!

[csh-2z]

Comparisons between NBRA and APBA (for insurance costs in particular) are apples & oranges. The only thing we have in common is we race boats. APBA sanctions between 100-120 events per year, over 1000% of that of NBRA with multiple categories. So, yes, it will be more expensive. APBA has a lot more on its plate than the other organizations. Just from what I've read on Hydroracer over the years we know that NBRA and the USTS do what they do very well. But APBA has been around for more than 100 years longer than NBRA. That's why we (APBA) have so much baggage in our rules and by-laws as well as being top heavy in administration. We weren't top heavy when we had 15,000 members in the organization during our heyday, unfortunately when membership began falling off administration did not shrink as well. Although most of the Commissions have fewer members now than they use to.

APBA has been a great mentor for NBRA. When they began their organization, they had a working model off of which to learn. They were aware of the mistakes made within APBA and its representative clubs over many years and have been able to avoid them in their own devlopment. NBRA has benefited greatly by learning from the history and experiences, both positive and negative, of APBA's evolution. NBRA has done a lot of good things that we in APBA can learn from as well. But because of the many different interests (categories) within APBA, it is going to take longer to make the changes that we believe are necessary for our own survival.

An honest evaluation of our current status is imperitive to determining what we need to do to reverse the trend we are currently in to ensure growth and stability for the future. Then a business plan must be developed and followed through with in order to succeed. I don't know if that can even happen in a membership driven organization where each members vote carries the same weight as all of the others with so many diverse opinions and perspectives. That is going to be a problem. I, for one, am not ready to give up.

John Runne

[bill van steenwyk]

This is the answer to all your problems. Create a situation were money comes in instead of going out and everyone will be happy. The races are what needs fixing. Not the organization.

Ryan:

I would like to give just one example of what is wrong with APBA. Your organization takes the money in and spends an obscene amount for sanction and insurance. The correct way to do it is with the USTS-NBRA template. If you do not like the way APBA is spending youR money, vote the offending BOD out!! You cannot expect the same thing/results with the same people running the organization. That is very simply the definition of insanity!!

Just one small example (and I have at least half-dozen more) of the stupid way the organization is run and has been for the 40+ years I have been involved. Look at this link and scroll down to my post and then read just ONE way that APBA squandered a really great opportunity.

An for all those that do not know me, the one thing I have learned over the years, is one or two folks cannot make a difference in the management of this organization. It is going to take a complete makeover and I am too old to start to try again at this late date.

The link is here. https://hydroracer.net/forums/forum/e...tts-remembered


If the link does not work then use the search function of HR and type in "Stan Fitts" and read the memorial regards his death and the post I made at that time. And John, I thing you give APBA way too much credit for the way USTS and NBRA are run. To start with, all of the NBRA/USTS folks are not on ego trips, but do their jobs for the good of the organizations involved, not to toot their own horns. They had a GREAT working model off of which to learn, just not the way APBA does things.

[csh-2z]

I agree Bill. I have nothing but respect for the members of those organizations

[Tim Weber]

I guess USTS and NBRA's manure doesn't stink. The two groups are trouble free and all a panacea. It seems we have to many Bernie Sanders supporters.

What a bunch of crap!

The bottom line is we are all passionate about the sport. There is no need to debate which group is better. Keep this in mind. APBA is the mother ship and always will be. It is the UIM affiliate and the only US sanctioning body that represents us on an international level.

The alky classes have taken their toys and don't want to play in our sandbox anymore. If those folks are happy with their club then great.
But.... the National Championship at Depue is really a big club race and IMO not a true championship. I heard that 125 hydro was the largest class with 14 boats at Depue. Wow! A few years ago there were over 20, 250 hydros and over 30 OSY rigs. We even had elims in both C-service classes.

Am I missing something? Strength is in numbers. The Indy cars folks figured it out and almost too late. That series still hasn't fully recovered.

But in the end, I just drive fast, little, race boats and want to compete with the best. A politician I am not.

Tim

[Bob Rusnak]

Went to an APBA stock Nationals. What does it mean when you win a Nationals with 6 boats? There will never be the 30-40 boats in a class anymore. Too many classes to divide the boat racers. If you can't get 12 starters in a class there should be no National Championship for that class. I agree strength is in numbers. Just too bad the ones who make the rules will not honor the other groups to compete as it just might bring more racers together with out having to join three different groups. Just my opinion.

[Big Don]

6 boats would not be a national championship in the Stock rules. Need 8 by the rules. Agree that there should be at least 12 to garner a true championship, maybe I'll make that proposal this year.

[Racerkyle20]

Bob what APBA outboard nationals have you been to recently? The yamato Hydro classes have regulatory had 30-40 entries per class. Numbers for the last two APBA combined Stock/mod/j nationals were 350 at Moses Lake (with 25 J hydros!) and over 450 at Wakefield, where the mod numbers jumped from Moses Lake. I think those are pretty good numbers. Not quite 1969 Dayton numbers, but most classes are not racing against 5 guys they race at their normal club races.....Wakefield this year I missed the 20SSH final with a heat win (heat one was a spin out 7th). The competition at nationals is still bar none the best I've ever seen, at least in the yamato classes I run. There are 10-15 guys that could win nationals regularly in those classes.Still my favorite event of the year, no matter where it is. And still the main reason I continue to race stock outboard in APBA.

[Smitty]

This has gotten very interesting, with the various points of view explained and defended. The one thing I'd like to see is fewer accusations of ill-will or empire-building or stupidity. Surely reasonable people can disagree reasonably.

Different people can look at the same thing or the same idea and interpret it differently. Two guys go into a corner, later one of them says the other sawed him off, while the other is equally sure he had the overlap. The turn-judge, if he saw the incident at all, saw it from a third angle, and has to make a judgement even though his view might not have been ideal, either. What I'm saying is, whatever your position on what's under discussion here, cut your opponents some slack . . . because they really aren't opponents and ultimately their motives are surely about the same as yours, to see racing prosper. You see them going about it all wrong, okay, argue for your point of view, sell your ideas, but try to keep it in a tone of gentlemanly disagreement.

Back in 1962, when he was setting up to run for the presidency against John Kennedy, whom he regarded as a friend, Barry Goldwater told a story of his grandfather who had run for some state office in Arizona. The grandfather had gotten together with his opponent in the race, and together they drove around the state in a big touring car with their aides (and a case of hooch in the trunk). The two would come to a town that was expecting them and engage in heated debate. Then they got back in the car and swigged on the hooch and told stories and jokes while driving to the next town. Isn't this the way it ought to be done?!! (Goldwater tried to arrange this with JFK, but it didn't happen, too bad). Gentlemanly disagreement.

Keeping in mind this idea that the guys that you think are doing things all wrong still deserve to be considered the honorable opposition, . . . (taking a deep breath) . . . again, y'all, what about the idea of arranging semi-formal debates before electing officers?? Members would get a MUCH better idea of whom and what should get their votes.

Anybody?