Vintage Alky Boat Racing

[Bear513]

I remember my funniest races I Had , when I was running 350 cc hydro and I was as fast as Danny Kitts, and a friend of mine Let me drive his 80 yamato in the pro version of the 302 class back then, it was only 4 boats it was not fast enough to catch the 302s so I slowed down, and raced this 74 years old guy, I knew the US title series gave out medals 1st to 3rd

So I let him beat me at the end

I wanted him to get a medal

To this day I still remember that old guy wearing his medal proud from a distance and Danny Kirts telling me great race, to this day I dont remember if it was about me beating him and winning in 350 cc hydro or me slowing down and putting on a show in that little yamato class

Would alawys think it was the latter

[chicks]

Dave and my self have been working on this project.

here is a few things that we thought about trying to get this project of the ground

1) we would try to get our group at events club races ect.as a special event.
2) we also would would have two events in Florida in the winter months , most likely back to back week ends.
3) for now we would have 2 classes that we believe would be a goo starter.
4) first class would be 125 hydro up to 250 hydro (years 1960 to 1980
5)second class would be 125 up to 250 hydro 1980 up to 1990
6) we would run each class once on sat and once one Sunday
7) (now for the event itself )
8) 8 boats per heat.
9) every one makes a clock start .
10) every one runs as fast as they wish for a 1 lap win
11) then 1 lap at a slow pace and come in.pits
12) now we would also have other things that a driver would receive points for that week end .

not only would you receive points for finishing the race event a driver would also receive points for

1) team that has the nicest looking equipment ect.
2) the motor that looks like the original as it came from factory
3)boat that look most original in that error which would include finish ,paint scheme, ect.
4) the over all team that looked best over all paint , uniform, ect.
5)( note) there might other categories that a team would gain points for the week end also. we are working on that.
6) sat evening we would have a display of boats ,food ,and give out awards for categories .and maybe have a quick meeting of what is next ect.
7) Sunday awards for who had the most points for week ind which would include making both water events ,team, boat ,motor categories ect.
all of these events a team would get points , and that would determine who was the winner for that week end.

this is just part of out thoughts ,what i would like you guys to do that think they would like to get involved with a event like this is give us some feed back what you guys would like to see to make this thing work.

also when you send info , give us your location ,year of equipment,type of motor , boat, and if you would like be a part of this group.

(note) we would like some good constructive feed back regarding this subject.

(note) i know we might have missed some good points that i did not mention we will try to ans. them as we go along.

(note) also that most people that would like to get involve would have to join this club , which we feel maybe $25 per year would be fair,. again that is something we will decide after we get threw this phase of the conversation. thanks chick and Dave

[tcf284]

how about pre '80 category has to run a 2 bladed prop ,make it more interesting

[chicks]

i think that is a good idea

[Smitty]

(I don't get it. A one-lap race? Why would anybody bother with putting old equipment together for that? For two special, scheduled races a year, in one corner of the country?)

I still think the step-down rule(s) I offered, that would apply to all local races around the country, is the way to go. Most of the time it will not be used. Well, SO WHAT?? It doesn't hurt anybody else at all. And when you show up at any club race with your old equipment, not only can you run it (which you can do now), but you wouldn't be so much slower than the other boats as to make things dangerous, and you'd have some chance at a good finish.

I'll say it again. Having a good step-down rule in place HURTS NOBODY, whether it is being used by anybody at a particular race or not. And from time to time some old gear will show up at your local race, helping fill out a class and making the day a little more fun for everybody. Win-win when it happens.

Where's the downside, what's the big deal?

Are you going to tell me that it complicates the PRO rules? Oh, okay, then what about those phony "development class" rules that allow a couple of Stock classes (with all of the rules complications that THAT brings) to pretend to be PRO classes, huh? The Stock division, with its bowhandle to bowhandle racing, has always served as a training ground for all other kinds of racing, without THOSE special exemptions and complications of the PRO rules.

If you really want something to develop new PRO racers, how about the step-down rules that offer old, affordable equipment, REAL ALKY equipment, that a guy can learn how to build and tune and race while he decides whether he wants to lay down ten or twenty grand to run modern, competitive gear?

Again, step-down rules will not be used often, but there's no downside to having them available, and when an old rig or two does show up at your race, there will be smiles all around.

[chicks]

smitty,the first reason we want to run 1 heat each day 1 lap is mainly these motors are in the 60s and 70s how long would any buddy expect to keep these old motors running , no parts ect.

2) would you really think a 1970 motor could run with todays motors , a 1969 2 cylinder konig ran maybe 75 mph how long do you think it would last racing 3 heats weekly ? the dam rods are like tooth picks with little small rod bearings .

3)this club is for people that have old equipment that want to go to a event and run there equipment run a little . try to keep it in one piece and just have some fun . no pressure ect. just like the vintage inboard series has and is very successful .

4) if you have equipment that you think that would be competitive with ta step down rule and want to run with the pro s at local races ect . then it is up to you to get on the band wagon and go to the a p b a meeting and voice your opinion and you get support and get it done,

( note ) this is not what this group wants to accomplish i do not believe . thanks chick

(again i want to repeat ), this information is not in stone , we just want your feed back on this subject. if you feel you would like more time on the water please voice your opinion.

also note that we are planning to have events with other clubs that have club races pro,stock mod , clubs. but also we would like to have 2 events in florida in the winter months. remember we are just starting this thing up .if we get enough support from people we could have our event at any time any date .( again this has(nothing) to do with title series.) lets all try to be positive with good suggestions .

[tcf284]

you do know that david hooten runs a konig 700cc power head from '73 I believe he told me and it does run good im sure its been built over and again many times has epoxy at the seams lol but some of them do run I do I thinkn an old 250/125 could keep up with these new vrp's nope not even a chance but just as the inboards have a "vintage class " and event I don't see any reason we cant create one with pro boats because I do believe at some point in time in the 60's 70's and 80's pro category was very big and was the "bread and butter" of the apba

[Smitty]

Well, to specifically talk about those A Konigs with toothpick rods, et al, they used to run race after race, some of them going a good deal faster than 75 mph (not mine, alas!!). And possibly Konny could make us some modified 500cc pistons.

How have the C Service guys kept their old stuff running all these years??

How many C Service guys would come to run one lap?

But again, Chick, I'm thinking that not much of this stuff will be raced or run under ANY rules scheme. I think David Weaver is completely right about this. Again, the step-down rules I offered are intentionally made with the idea that the old motors will NOT compete with the new machinery on an even basis, BUT will not be miles behind, either. They still would be racing, hoping for the new motors to go sour, jump the gun, etc.. If I understand your proposal (and maybe I don't) what you're offering is not racing but little demonstration runs of museum-pieces. That's okay, but is that all that the owners of the old gear want? At least around here there are a few old guys with Mercs and other things that have no interest in the Mod division, with its weird rules; they're Alky racers for better or worse, who got obsoleted out of racing, and can't see expending large sums of money for the latest and greatest European imports when they already have racing machinery in dusty boxes. Or running one lap, or paying to join a special club to run one lap

Maybe you're right about this, Chick; I know nothing about the Vintage Inboards. Anyway, I leave the discussion to you guys.

[chicks]

you made some good points , that is why we have this form to get everybody s ideas lets just keep it going and see what everybody wants to have . right ? hope we get more input of what every expects with this club if we can get something that everybody wants .

i know that i am close to 75 years old . that is the last thing i want to do is go and run with my old 69 2 pipe konig with a old side craft hydro and try to compete with a new 125 rossi or vrp rather it be against a 125 or 250 . it would be a wast of my time and effort to even try such a thing . i would not have a chance in hell. and to run in a class hoping everybody will break down , thats not racing . right .? i guess a guy might as well stay home if that is what his thoughts are .am i right or wrong ?. thanks chick

[Steve77t]

I have been reading this and listen to all points. But how many parts are still around for these things really? I have some Konig stuff, but My point here is Pistons are easy, It is the crankshaft stuff that is hard to come by. And then we can talk about cases and such. Yes Konny can make pistons for the Konigs but at what cost to you? They have Hot Antique Meets with the AOMCI and you can do drive by's at these meets. best I think is do the same a a race and also have a antique boat show with it. Anouther thing is as time goes by, these old motors are in the hands of collectors. To those with Fa Konigs, These were tender when we raced back in the day, That is why it is hard to find one that has the original case because the retainers would fail and a rod would kill the case. These parts are no more. As far as Yamatos go, these parts are maybe more rare than Konigs as there were nat as many made as the Konigs, Same goes for the Flatheads. At this time I'm making many pistons for Flatheads that are being restored with one going to be raced. I like the idea I guess but parts are a problem, and current manufactures will not make this stuff because the market is to small. It is very expensive to make crankshafts cylinders and such, and in the case of the bearings for the FA Konig, this bearing is no more made by anyone. Can something else be used/ Yes but do you want to pay for this change/ Just some thoughts

[dwhitford]

Several good points, Steve, which I appreciate. I think that the furure of Chick's (mine too!) proposal is all according to what the owners of vintage equipment and how much they want to see it on the water again are willing to risk.

Chick and others commented that going easy on the engines -- for example, "one heat racing" and then a cool-down lap -- might 1) get the rigs on the water, for additional interest and 2) keep the rigs available for future such showing.

On the other hand, we raced these engines hard in the 1970s & '80s and put them away "sound". Who's to say they can't run many more heats, especially if Chick puts his nitro on the shelf??

I plan to put a roll call on this forum as a new, separate topic, to discern how many of you have old alky stuff that you might want to run in some sort of special event, if not this year, then in 2016. I can name 4 of you already and intend to target you for answers. Meanwhile, I have a tentative venue for such a special event at CVRA races in 2015, no promises, the Club membership still needs to vote.

My point is that Chick and I seemed to have aroused a wasp's nest of comment -- more than normal on HydroRacer -- 3 pages worth -- for some sort of Vintage ALKY Racing.

So now we need a roll call of people who are interested and what they have to showboat (can contribute).

So gather around, Boyz & Girlz, and list for me what ol' alky stuff you've got and want to run.

[bill van steenwyk]

I do not doubt the seriousness of the comments of this post, BUT, if you want to reach the widest audience, you need to post about this effort on BRF also.

That seems to be where a lot of us that are "over the hll by the lake" get a lot of Boat racing info these days.

[chicks]

thanks bill for info , i am not familiar with BRF would you can give us some info in regards to this site ?

[racingfan1]

boatracingfacts.com is the web site. It has many forums like hydroracer and a little more on the history of racing.

[Smitty]

My comments aren't all that "serious," Bill. The OP, Whitford, tossed out an idea that he and Chick had been mulling over, I threw in an alternative notion, and away we went, just throwing out ideas. But sure, the BRF crowd could have a shot at it.

[Smitty]

Well, curiosity led me back to look, so naturally I just have to put in another two cents, LOL.

Steve, others, certainly I understand that some/most of these relic motors would be hard or even impossible to support in regular racing, step-down or not. If Chick and Dave and others want to arrange a Special Event to run demonstration laps of their antiques, so far as I know that is already provided for in the APBA rules, right?? It used to be, anyway, IIRC.

My point is that the step-down rules I suggested could also be available to the occasional old-timers (or new guys who come up with the old, now-cheap, equipment) when they do want to run in a race. Nobody is compelled to race and maybe break their old A Konig with its dainty little retainers. It's another choice. Without naming names, I know two guys with A Konigs and Yamatos (one of them quite fast in the '70s and '80s) who would like to run their gear again if it weren't a total waste of time.

Or rather, it would be a choice IF the rules were in place. A choice that guys would, I believe, make every so often, and everybody will get a charge out of it.

It looks as if the C Service guys will be doing this when their engines are a hundred years old (some of the guys might be too!!). The Mod crowd still manage to find enough parts to keep old Mercs running, as I understand, and if there are enough Merc 500s around to steal parts out of, why can't somebody run a Looper hard if he wants to? I was talking to an old-timer a couple of weeks ago who loved the Loopers and hated that the Konigs replaced them because anybody could work on a Looper, with it's one-piece crank and bolt-on rods. And there are some Yamato 80 RB motors around. They aren't worth anything as antiques, but you could have some fun with them.

So maybe you have to get some parts made, or learn to make them yourself on a lathe, maybe learn to weld your own tube-towerhousings and pipes. Isn't this what alky racing used to be??? Isn't this what set us apart from bike racers and car racers and others who could buy whatever they needed off the shelf?? Isn't this how, when we were young and dumb and handsome, some of us learned shop skills, learned precision measuring, learned how to run machine tools and weld, learned to build plywood boats?? I bet I can write myself out a list, a pretty long list of young guys I knew who went from stockers into alky racing and with these skills they started picking up, because we had to, went on to become professionals in one or other of the skilled trades, or became mechanical engineers. As a welder repairing broken parts I've had to be very conscious of structures and loading and flexing, of moving loads around a structure and spreading them out so as to avoid stress concentrations that maybe broke the part in the first place because of faulty original design. I started learning about stress-risers when I was a young guy because I was racing a flimsy early A Konig.

I didn't like the design of that engine's 17mm crankpins, so I got a piece of 8620, turned some new pins on my brand-new light-duty Craftsman/Atlas lathe, pack-hardened them in a machining class I was taking, got them centerless-ground in town. So what if there are no new crankpins; if a dummy like me could do this, anybody can who wants to! Maybe you make them so that you can replace the unavailable big-end bearings with a bearing out of a 50cc bike or scooter. You figure stuff out. This is part of the fun, for some of us. Sure, many alky racers even then just wrote checks so they could drive raceboats, but for others, in varying degrees the tech and the mechanical skills became as much or more fun than the racing. When I was 21 years old I had already figured out that what I wanted in life was a crappy little bachelor apartment . . . upstairs from a big, fully-equipped SHOP!


And as I said above about making a list, there were a lot of gear-heads racing alky rigs in those days.

So it saddens me when I hear the old-timers who are still at it tell me of PRO racing, "It's not the way you remember it. The Italian engines are so well developed guys just run them as they come in the box. Nobody would grind on ports or cut a hole in the crankcase to mount an extra carburetor anymore." I feel bad for young guys, would-be gearheads, in a new America when so much manufacturing is done in China, when industrial supply houses and bearing houses, and gear works and machine shops and foundries, and scrapyards and wrecking yards and surplus outfits are shutting down. When smart kids are steered into training for "financial services," because shuffling money and taking a cut of it is a bigger part of the economy than manufacturing. Brave new world.

Hah, well, the OLD guys who read this won't mind my getting carried away there! But the point is, as the C Service crowd shows, if somebody really wants to get his old junk to run, he can probably find a way. If it's a young guy working on the old stuff because it's cheap, learning to do this is good for him (better for him than his dad buying him a new Italian motor), good in the same way it was good for young guys in the Sixties to build their own Hal Kelly boats, even if the store-bought Sids and Marchettis were going to hose them every time they raced. Seems to me, if a young guy has been racing Stocks for a while, he ought to be able to find some old alky gear, cheap, and learn on it. Learn a lot more than he'd learn with a new motor.

Young or old, only a few would want to do this. I think some version of the step-down rule I proposed would encourage those gear-heads, when they come along.

[dwhitford]

Great post and reminiscing, Smitty! I recall repairing some Looper pistons on a Swiss jig-bore machine (a super-accurate vertical milling machine) in an IBM evening machine-shop class in Poughkeepsie, probably 1969.

[US101R]

Amen Smitty! Back in my day everyone worked on/ rebuilt their air cooled VW motors or small block V-8's, Now a days people just buy Kia's.

[Original Looper 1]

Smitty for president! Bravo to your post!

Some of greatest knowledge that I have gained in my lifetime has come from the hard fought experience of wise old gentlemen and gentlewomen, not from college educated pothead theorists. The great Charlie Strang, that we all agree is brilliant in engineering, once told me in a phone conversation that no matter how hard people try to change it, there is absolutely no substitute for experience.

Regards,

Paul A. Christner

[Steve77t]

Well, curiosity led me back to look, so naturally I just have to put in another two cents, LOL.

Steve, others, certainly I understand that some/most of these relic motors would be hard or even impossible to support in regular racing, step-down or not. If Chick and Dave and others want to arrange a Special Event to run demonstration laps of their antiques, so far as I know that is already provided for in the APBA rules, right?? It used to be, anyway, IIRC.

My point is that the step-down rules I suggested could also be available to the occasional old-timers (or new guys who come up with the old, now-cheap, equipment) when they do want to run in a race. Nobody is compelled to race and maybe break their old A Konig with its dainty little retainers. It's another choice. Without naming names, I know two guys with A Konigs and Yamatos (one of them quite fast in the '70s and '80s) who would like to run their gear again if it weren't a total waste of time.

Or rather, it would be a choice IF the rules were in place. A choice that guys would, I believe, make every so often, and everybody will get a charge out of it.

It looks as if the C Service guys will be doing this when their engines are a hundred years old (some of the guys might be too!!). The Mod crowd still manage to find enough parts to keep old Mercs running, as I understand, and if there are enough Merc 500s around to steal parts out of, why can't somebody run a Looper hard if he wants to? I was talking to an old-timer a couple of weeks ago who loved the Loopers and hated that the Konigs replaced them because anybody could work on a Looper, with it's one-piece crank and bolt-on rods. And there are some Yamato 80 RB motors around. They aren't worth anything as antiques, but you could have some fun with them.

So maybe you have to get some parts made, or learn to make them yourself on a lathe, maybe learn to weld your own tube-towerhousings and pipes. Isn't this what alky racing used to be??? Isn't this what set us apart from bike racers and car racers and others who could buy whatever they needed off the shelf?? Isn't this how, when we were young and dumb and handsome, some of us learned shop skills, learned precision measuring, learned how to run machine tools and weld, learned to build plywood boats?? I bet I can write myself out a list, a pretty long list of young guys I knew who went from stockers into alky racing and with these skills they started picking up, because we had to, went on to become professionals in one or other of the skilled trades, or became mechanical engineers. As a welder repairing broken parts I've had to be very conscious of structures and loading and flexing, of moving loads around a structure and spreading them out so as to avoid stress concentrations that maybe broke the part in the first place because of faulty original design. I started learning about stress-risers when I was a young guy because I was racing a flimsy early A Konig.

I didn't like the design of that engine's 17mm crankpins, so I got a piece of 8620, turned some new pins on my brand-new light-duty Craftsman/Atlas lathe, pack-hardened them in a machining class I was taking, got them centerless-ground in town. So what if there are no new crankpins; if a dummy like me could do this, anybody can who wants to! Maybe you make them so that you can replace the unavailable big-end bearings with a bearing out of a 50cc bike or scooter. You figure stuff out. This is part of the fun, for some of us. Sure, many alky racers even then just wrote checks so they could drive raceboats, but for others, in varying degrees the tech and the mechanical skills became as much or more fun than the racing. When I was 21 years old I had already figured out that what I wanted in life was a crappy little bachelor apartment . . . upstairs from a big, fully-equipped SHOP!


And as I said above about making a list, there were a lot of gear-heads racing alky rigs in those days.

So it saddens me when I hear the old-timers who are still at it tell me of PRO racing, "It's not the way you remember it. The Italian engines are so well developed guys just run them as they come in the box. Nobody would grind on ports or cut a hole in the crankcase to mount an extra carburetor anymore." I feel bad for young guys, would-be gearheads, in a new America when so much manufacturing is done in China, when industrial supply houses and bearing houses, and gear works and machine shops and foundries, and scrapyards and wrecking yards and surplus outfits are shutting down. When smart kids are steered into training for "financial services," because shuffling money and taking a cut of it is a bigger part of the economy than manufacturing. Brave new world.

Hah, well, the OLD guys who read this won't mind my getting carried away there! But the point is, as the C Service crowd shows, if somebody really wants to get his old junk to run, he can probably find a way. If it's a young guy working on the old stuff because it's cheap, learning to do this is good for him (better for him than his dad buying him a new Italian motor), good in the same way it was good for young guys in the Sixties to build their own Hal Kelly boats, even if the store-bought Sids and Marchettis were going to hose them every time they raced. Seems to me, if a young guy has been racing Stocks for a while, he ought to be able to find some old alky gear, cheap, and learn on it. Learn a lot more than he'd learn with a new motor.

Young or old, only a few would want to do this. I think some version of the step-down rule I proposed would encourage those gear-heads, when they come along.

Well Smitty, One thing that must be considered is that the Antique C service motors is that millions were made. No so for Flatheads Konigs and Yamatos. I think that it is neat that this idea is talked about, But the parts problem is and will be a issue. Again, most of these old motors are sold to collectors for saw horse queens. others are sold to guy's that just want to take a ride, but they do not want to race them. The thing you say about the old Fa Konig is true. But to give you a little insight, I work with a a Antique go cart racer with a Fa Konig. He is very aware that certain parts are no more. Can you make a new case? Yes! I have done this for collectors, and Pete Hellsten did it when he was still running a Fa. What I do for the cart guy, because he runs the crap out of it, is I too made better pins but still use the 17 mm size but for a later type of motor. All things can be done. But how many want to do this? Show and tell and drive by's are best I thing for this. I have a ton of Fa pistons from before the standard bore was increased to 54 mm. Yes I would like to sell them as well. I have also several Fa's from about 56 for the oldest to the very last one that came out of Konig factory. It is the last Fa. The Mercury motors to have a problem. Are you aware that the needle bearings are no more/ Same for rod bolts and other parts. This is for early stuff. The late 500 you can get most parts for but things like wrist pins are different size. I'm not aginst any of this, just open eyes is all. Steve

[Smitty]

I made one-third of an A Konig case, the bottom section, so I could use a double-row lower main bearing (and just barely have enough room left to hang the seal on!!) for a little better crank support. I told Zak about it during a phone call one time and he said, "Good idea," and then, "Did that a long time ago." Oh well.

[Smitty]

You're telling me reasons why not many people would be able to support one of these old motors in regular racing, and why fewer still would try.

I get that.

All I'm saying is that if there was a good step-down rule in place, one or two of those few resourceful fellows would occasionally come to a race near you. And that having the step-down rule in place, even during the majority of the time that it is not being used, hurts nothing and nobody.

It's probably not worth doing, trying to pass that set of rules. Everybody and his brother would feel compelled to tell us why it's not worth doing, same arguments over and over again. Even though it would hurt nothing and nobody.

But without a step-down rule, all you'll see of the old motors on the water is gentle fly-bys, with short bursts of speed, one-lap non-races.

Without a stepdown rule, which would let that rare somebody know ahead of time that he could run a race with his relic and have a shot at a decent finish in a local race, you will never again see and hear one of those obsoleted engines wound up and going for it. The way it was meant to run.

[Guest]

If you all don't get off your collective A$$, you all will be dead before you ever run your prestigious '60, '70, and '80 race engines.

I've lived thru the '60, '70, '80, '90 and 2000's and prefer to watch the new stuff, that's me. PRO racing, I think, is running the latest and fastest stuff. I think we don't need another C service class.

But if you want to run that old iron, don't expect anyone to change their race program for you. If you want just to race one lap, do it during the testing period on your own time. Join the race organization and club, pay your dues and just do it!!!

[dwhitford]

But if you want to run that old iron, don't expect anyone to change their race program for you. If you want just to race one lap, do it during the testing period on your own time. Join the race organization and club, pay your dues and just do it!!!

*****
I already did it at two regattas in 2014! And I intend to keep on doing it.

Good going dwhitford!!

[raceright]

Hey have fun,but more than parts or any other equipment I see racers from region 10,5,2,1,4, APBA. this wonderful internet world make all things look possible but the distance when you try to get together can separate the men from the boys real fast. You can always run under special event along with what ever club would allow this. But as the USTS is well organized and financially stable the distance they have to travel is the biggest obstical. I have several 80"s konigs 250 (4 cylinder)and 350's but as they could be made to run it is not for us at this time. I would love to see you pull this off but it will have to be a local thing. Good luck and like others have said DO IT.

Parts for the old race engines may be hard to find, but replacement parts for the old Racers are even harder to get!