Vintage Alky Boat Racing

[dwhitford]

Chick LaRose has a good idea that I like too. Why not include vintage boats and engines in the ordinary mix of PRO boat races? For example, Chick has a 1969 Koenig hydro that set records in its day. And I have a 1980 hydro with a 1979 Quincy engine that ran 90 mph in 1986.

While these rigs can't quite compete with the Italian 100mph 250s of today, these older rigs can conribute to the overall racing program, which is thin on the water now for alky rigs.

Chick and I see 2 possible ideas: 1) Run an extra vintage class. 2) Score the vintage boats seperately.

Because CVRA and other sponsoring clubs have already so many classes to run, Chick and I realize that separate races for Vintage Alky Hydroplanes (VAH) is a maybe unobtainable goal.

But at least according to the existing rules, these Vintage Boats can run in current 250-350 races, just can't compete equally.

Maybe what Chick and I petition for is some scoring difference, maybe some date cutoff between what constitutes a VAH boat and a current "modern" hydro.

So that the upshot might be that instead of 4-5 alky hydros on the race course for spectator benefit, you might get another 3-5 "antiques" not so far behind in mph to flesh out the field ... and also give geezers like Chick and me the opportunity to compete. Win, win!

How we decide about the scoring for all this is up for grabs. I propose a sort of "age" antique limit, say 1980 or so, same rules as for PRO: anything goes on engines, just no gaseous fuels.

[Smitty]

If you're enough of a geezer, you'll remember when they instituted the deflector step-down rule, whereby old B alky Mercs could step down and run with the newer A class Konigs and Loopers, C Mercs could run with the modern B's, and so on. To keep it simple, I think this only applied to local races, not divisional, national, or record events.

Possibly an updated version of this rule could be devised to cover your idea. Probably the old motors still wouldn't keep up, but it would be a closer, better show. If the old rigs started embarrassing the new ones, you could further limit the old stuff to two-blade props. Lots of fun, especially for all the old coots who remember those motors, those times.

And it would quickly prove to be self-limiting, too, since pistons aren't available for most of this stuff anymore.

[rumleyfips]

I thought the last time I saw you, Dave, was Onandaga Lake 1981. You were running a Quincy Z , maybe on a Pugh; thin profile, long narrow pickles, natural finish, splitter cowl with a flat top. I was impressed with your rocking sawhorse with the prop guard. A few of us stock guys were standing around drinking beer when some bikers with some Dobermans came swaggering up. One of the Dobermans went for my old hound Tara and she had that dog on its back with her teeth around its neck faster than you would believe. Tara let go and the dog ran away and the bikers ran away , we laughed like idiots and opened another beer.

The other times I remember you , we stopped on the 401 when you blew an engine in your station wagon, opened a bottle of wine and were having a good time when a cop pulled up. You also told me about phases of the moon and girls, emptying a beer bottle then filling it up again trying to get back to base before going AWOL and using IBM punch cards for gaskets because they were quality controlled for thickness.

The 70's were fun

[dwhitford]

Rumleyfips, who are you with your excellent memory, better than mine now? As I recall, someone with a lie-back Lotus about 3-feet high was at the site of that 401 disaster that I had, brought on by myself. I had a POS 1967 Fairlane that I'd bought from a Montrose, PA dealer after Riggs Smith had worn it out overloading it to ferry stuff to his Fishers Landing cottage on the River numerous times. I'd traded my '62 Ford sedan which was perfectly fine as long as I kept feeding it fluids: power steering, crankcase oil, and gasoline at 30-cents a gallon. Those were the days, eh?

I'd put the Fairlane into Drive Lo coming off the bridge into Canada and never shifted back into regular Drive b4 getting onto the 401. So I cooked the engine by overrevving it at 401 speed. The Canadian wrenches did a great job of putting it back right, but I traded the car in Clayton, NY for my 1st new vehicle, a 1970 F250 pickup shortly thereafter. I've had standard-shift cars ever since, my present car a 2013 Chevy Cruze w/ a 6-speed manual, replacing 3 previous standard-shift Mustangs. The Cruze even reminds me to upshift with a dashboard message display if I forget.

The boat at Onandaga was my 1st w/ the Quincy, a super-light Gene Apel boat, with which Jeff Hutchins had come 2nd the year b4 at 1977 at the PRO Nationals at Hinton, where Bob Rusnak won overall with a 1st & a 4th, the year that Elvis died while we raced. The Quincy wore that boat slap out in 2 years, so I swapped it at the Lakeland Nationals at Lake Parker for a B Butts 12-footer from Greg-the-Canadian (forget his name now). The CT kid who bought the Apel rebuilt it and reported that the Q had delaminated almost all the plywood from every stringer!

At Onandaga, I pegged my 50-90 Keller for the 1st time. I should've won that race. I led for 2-1/2 laps b4 my hand got tired from holding up those big Quincy exhaust chambers. Then Mike Schmidt came by, and then some other guy whom I don't remember. Shortly thereafter I bought a sliding throttle from Tom Harden, one I could apply my whole shoulder's force to: problem solved, & it's in my VAH.

About my tilting starting horse: I built that so that I could start myself when I never had anyone to help me when I tested. I attached a "mast" to it. At the top of the mast was a parachute nylon cord running into the cockpit. I could pull the cord, thereby tilting the horse, and launch myself. I lost one of the big pipe's legs to that horse in 4" of water at Onandaga Lake, which is so polluted from the Solvay salt process from years ago that I couldn't find the pipe!

Memories from the '70s ... how sweet they are! Once again: who are you?

[rumleyfips]

Dave:
John McManus. The Lotus Europa was a friend's; I was driving a 69 Chev van towing my trailer.

[Bob Rusnak]

Maybe at a local APBA race you could do something but doubt the USTS would go for anything like that.

[dwhitford]

I'm sure you're right about the USTS, Bob. I think nothing in the APBA rules prohibits old stuff from running, but about whether USTS has a rule against the old stuff, I don't know. Before I stopped racing in 1986, CVRA used to let Bob Thornton run his C-class PR -- albeit with loop Yamaha cylinders on it -- in CVRA races. I have a photo showing Bob, Gary Augustine in his B, and me in my 250 rig all running in the same heat at Denton, MD.

[chicks]

this would be local racing only , what dave and myself are doing right now is just seeing if there is any interest in trying this . we would need some impute aprox how many boats we could expect . so i guess what i am saying anyone that would have a interest in participating in this type of event , let us know on this site . and we would like to here your opinion on this subject . how it should be run ect.

[DiGia54D]

We have a guy up in Mass that now has 2 pro rigs with Yamato 250 motors. If APBA had a classic Alky class you would get other guys to show up. This is a good idea for APBA Pro division.

[Guest]

There nothing in the APBA rules preventing you from running that old stuff now as long as it meet current safety rules.
If you want to run 50 year old stuff go ahead, have a ball at the back of the pack.

[Bob Rusnak]

Last year at Lockhaven only one 250 showed up. A vintage 250 would have has a second if there were one more to take a start.

[dwhitford]

I was on my way to that regatta with my VAH when I had an accident that sidelined me at Selinsgrove, PA.

[raceright]

350 down open boat 500 up capsule.

[David Weaver]

The idea of vintage PRO classes might need to be taken up with APBA. Other categories have "vintage spin offs", such as Inboards. I am not certain how this is governed. As the PRO category has plenty on its plate, perhaps a separate, self-governing group could be created. I believe there are limitations on the vintage inboard boats. For instance, you cannot take out your 1975 Lauterbach GP boat and run around a 1 2/3 mile course at 160 MPH. The "racing" may be an orchestrated affair as well. I believe that this has taken hold in Europe somewhat. In terms of a home within contemporary PRO racing, the RB class fell by the wayside due in great part to declining participation and lack of parts for old powerheads. IMHO, the core focus of the PRO category needs to remain on the here & now and the future. As an independent group/category, you might find more success in the immediate future.

[chicks]

i think you may have something David. something else i guess we we should look at these motors 60s and 70s only run aprox 70 to 80 mph, and maybe a lot of drivers age wise would be in there 70s and higher. i would think safety wise it would not be a good idea to run with the new motors of today. what do you guys think ? please keep up the conversation on this subject . only by everybody putting in there input , we might find solutions

[fbref5269]

i have a quincy a and b looper I can bring. also have a classic early marchetti picklefork to put them on. the ride might be fun. also have 4 cyl quincy f looper that jerry davids and I may run one day at lochhaven as a flyby.

frank
in the tax cave fighting off the irs phone scammers
they tell me to f off before I can tell them to, I think they are on to me

[Bob Rusnak]

The RB class was one of the largest classes in the Pro category at one time. It was a catch all for all the obsolete engines, Quincy's, Yamato's, FA Konigs, etc. Then came the new Quincy engine designed just for this class and if you didn't have one you could not win, they were that much faster. There were and most likely a bunch of these old engines still laying around. If you through in some of the obsolete Yamato's there would be plenty.This was why the participation declined in that class. Once a cheap class, the Quincy power head now made it an expensive class. Whenever there is something good some new rules will mess it up. Bring it to a race and enter it in the class it was designed to race in. You never know with gun jumpers, and breakdowns you could get lucky. Does anyone know if the old deflector rule is still in existence? This is just all my opinion to add to this.

[dwhitford]

Does anyone know if the old deflector rule is still in existence?

***

Good question, Bob. I'd like to know the answer too.

[raceright]

The Pro category has been transforming by working outside the box. The USTS have had increases in sponsorship monies every year for over 10 years now so changing is hard to do. They need to stay financially sound with their program as they are now. But if any new idea is incorporated in other racing venue there is plenty of equipment around.

[dwhitford]

Pat, I'm not questioning the USTS success, which has been formidable. I never raced in a USTS regatta. The USTS was just getting going by the time I "retired" in 1986, and my opportunity to race in USTS format never crossed paths.

I've been quite impressed with the professionalism I've seen at the two USTS regattas I attended in 2014. Those echoed the same sort of professionalism that I saw at Chick LaRose's early USTS regattas after 1986 in Upstate NY, north of Potsdam.

I just wish that so many of the Stock (& Modified) clubs could emulate such professionalism and get enough sponsorship for professional showmanship so that the racers need not "pay their own way" for the privilege to race.

The precedent is in northern NY and Quebec. The clubs there in the 1970s (St Lawrence Boating and Racing Association and the Hydro Club de Quebec) sold a show to communities, which then ponied up the money to both put on the show and paid the racers to compete in the form of prize money.

Even I was able to do that in Charlotte, North Carolina, thru the Optimist Club of Charlotte, (Charlotte's oldest Optimist Club, of which I was then a member ... mostly to get boat races going, not sell Christmas trees). It's a tough sell, but if a nerd like me can do it, so can many extroverts do the same thing.

The concept of boat racers spending their treasure to prep their racing rigs and then get the penaltiy fees of testing and racing on the water is absolutely abhorrent to me. For example, if CVRA needs to pay the community $1200 for the use of Tabor Lake, maybe my club needs to find another venue, instead of taxing the club members to run on it.

The water I secured to race on north of Charlotte was free. I think that should be a minimum prerequisite. -- dave

[Danny Pigott]

Back in the 70's I went to Fla. when they had a lot of races, I ran my DMH in CDF Pro there were times I would win or finish good . I did this in the winter time to test things and to try and improve my starts. I also had a lot of fun.

[dwhitford]

I well remember that, Danny, when you wrested my Z-1 boat number from me. We had no Mod category active then, so you ran in the alky (PRO) division. Losing my Z-1 boat number to you was at least a minor reason why I retired in 1986. :

[Danny Pigott]

I have two 500 PRO Hydro's one with a 1975 Konig One with a 1985 Konig. Also a B Looper

[dwhitford]

Seems to me that I've heard plenty enough enthusiasm on this topic to warrant some sort of Vintage Category of boat racing. It might be all according to how much room some potential competitors have to transport their vintage equipment in addition to the current equipment.

[Bob Rusnak]

Hay Dave, I remember that race in Charlotte NC. We had a club meeting on a Wed. night. I asked Pete Voss what is going on this weekend? He said they were going to Charlotte for a race, leaving on Friday. So, Pete with a 500 Hydro, Gib Peterman with a C service and me with a 250 Hydro went. Pete and Gib might have had an additional class to run but the end result was we came home with about $1000.00 in prize money between the three of us. That was a lot of money back then. That was a great event. I think I still have a poster of the event somewhere in the shop.